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High end Alloy Wheelsets w/ Cup and Cone Bearings?

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High end Alloy Wheelsets w/ Cup and Cone Bearings?

Old 05-25-21, 08:55 PM
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avhed
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High end Alloy Wheelsets w/ Cup and Cone Bearings?

I know Shimano and Campagnolo has loose bearings, but what other companies do?
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Old 05-27-21, 03:22 AM
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That's it, AFAIK. Sucks, but unfortunately plenty of folks see nothing wrong with cartridge bearings in hubs, so there you go.

Out of the two, Shimano has the best design IMO, due to the cassette body being a stressed member that places the drive side axle bearing next to the dropout where it belongs. Unlike Campy, Shimano also uses cup and cone bearings for the cassette body, which are adjustable via shims, if you can crack open the cassette body (two notches in the bearing cup, left hand thread).

Mavic hubs are only cartridge bearing, and most have a poxy bushing for the inboard cassette body bearing, but at least their drive side axle bearing is towards the dropout.

If you could find a brand that uses angular contact cartridge bearings with adjustable preload, that'd be sign there's been some actual engineering done instead of this cookie cutter crap that passes for hub internals these days... Not sure anybody's bothered though.

BTW, 'high end alloy wheelset' is getting to be a bit of an oxymoron these days. Shimano's ally/carbon rims are pretty damn nice, but I'm not sure if they've got around to doing them wider like everyone wants now.

Last edited by Kimmo; 05-27-21 at 03:31 AM.
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Old 06-30-21, 06:53 PM
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Wow, only one reply to this?
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Old 06-30-21, 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted by avhed View Post
Wow, only one reply to this?
Perhaps @Kimmo gave a good answer

Shimano still sells most of their J-Bend hubs as individual hubs. I don't believe their straight-pull hubs are typically sold bare. But, there are options to build your own wheels.

Shimano's new cone lock is kind of cool, although the adjustment takes some getting used to, and they have good Labyrinth seals.
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Old 06-30-21, 07:32 PM
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You could buy a worn out set of Shimano wheels with the 16/20 (or 16/21) straight pull hubs (as long as the cones are still good, replacements can be hard to source, but if they're properly adjusted they should last almost forever) and lace them to whatever rims you like. I've actually never seen this done, but it should be common IMO.
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Old 06-30-21, 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by avhed View Post
Wow, only one reply to this?
The one answer given is what i would have posted. I'm guessing it's what others would have posted too.
No point in a bunch of people posting the same comment over and again.

Get some shimano hubs, choose a quality rim with 32 holes, and use some double butted spokes.
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Old 06-30-21, 09:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Kimmo View Post
You could buy a worn out set of Shimano wheels with the 16/20 (or 16/21) straight pull hubs (as long as the cones are still good, replacements can be hard to source, but if they're properly adjusted they should last almost forever) and lace them to whatever rims you like. I've actually never seen this done, but it should be common IMO.
Not a bad idea. My circa 2004 D/A hubs are unbelievably smooth, and are about as light as anything else currently available that is of the same quality. I plan to ride them as long as I have a bike that works with them.
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Old 07-01-21, 02:09 PM
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Just for completeness - Fulcrum hubs have cup/cone bearings as well. That said, they're owned by Campagnolo, so while it's a separate brand, not actually a separate company.

(and my Zondas appear to have been stuck in customs for the past week... but at least they were in-stock and appear to have shipped out of PBK's warehouse...)
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Old 07-01-21, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by aliasfox View Post
Just for completeness - Fulcrum hubs have cup/cone bearings as well.
They don't use cartridge bearings on the cheaper models?
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Old 07-01-21, 03:37 PM
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Wheels below the Zonda or Fulcrum racing 3 use cartridge bearings.
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Old 07-01-21, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Kimmo View Post
They don't use cartridge bearings on the cheaper models?
They do. One of the sites I looked at (maybe CyclingTips?) did a teardown and showed that the Fulcrum Racing 5 was cartridge bearings, but the Racing 3 and Racing 0 had balls inside.

Edit: Corrected myself - DaveSSS had it right, it's the Racing 3 and Racing 0 that have balls, the Racing 5 is cartridge. Link below:
https://cyclingtips.com/2018/05/fulc...eelset-review/

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Old 07-01-21, 04:23 PM
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Only Campy and Shimano do cup and cone.

Cup and cone are less efficient, so, there you go.
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Old 07-01-21, 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62 View Post
Cup and cone are less efficient, so, there you go.
Lolwut. Vast majority of bearing drag is in the seals, and sealing of cartridge bearings is often sub par. Also, I've almost never seen a cartridge hub with preload adjustment, so no preload is probably a tiny bit less drag.

Give me sealing and preload any day, adjust them properly and never revisit them.

Factor in throwing away your bearings every time they get contaminated, probably not so efficient in the big picture.

Also, hub bearing drag is a trivial factor, given the tyre's leverage over the bearings.
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Old 07-01-21, 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
Get some shimano hubs, choose a quality rim with 32 holes, and use some double butted spokes.
That's what I do. Since Shimano hubs are so long-lasting, you don't even have to buy new.
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Old 07-01-21, 09:10 PM
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I reckon we've established that 32 spokes is more than you need, unless you've got some super light box section rims maybe.

If you wanna use poxy old J-bend flanges, you can lace em up 16/24, with the rear either standard or triplet.
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Old 07-02-21, 05:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Kimmo View Post
Lolwut. Vast majority of bearing drag is in the seals, and sealing of cartridge bearings is often sub par. Also, I've almost never seen a cartridge hub with preload adjustment, so no preload is probably a tiny bit less drag.

Give me sealing and preload any day, adjust them properly and never revisit them.

Factor in throwing away your bearings every time they get contaminated, probably not so efficient in the big picture.

Also, hub bearing drag is a trivial factor, given the tyre's leverage over the bearings.
Hambini has proven the Shimano cup and cone bearings have more drag. Say 5 watts vs 2 watts. Might be trivial to you. Who is generating your wheel leverage, LOL. I have owned plenty of campy and shimano hubs. They have never been set it and forget it.

I use NTN bearings and they will probably outlast me. They never get contaminated, what are you talking about. Big picture nonsense.
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Old 07-02-21, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62 View Post
Hambini has proven the Shimano cup and cone bearings have more drag. Say 5 watts vs 2 watts. Might be trivial to you. Who is generating your wheel leverage, LOL. I have owned plenty of campy and shimano hubs. They have never been set it and forget it.

I use NTN bearings and they will probably outlast me. They never get contaminated, what are you talking about. Big picture nonsense.
Okay, Shimano and Campy are a pair of stupid old fogeys like me.
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Old 07-02-21, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Kimmo View Post
Okay, Shimano and Campy are a pair of stupid old fogeys like me.
For those that know how to do it, they're easy and cheap to rebuild and can last a long time.

I've got cartridge bearings in a Campy crank that got wet and all crunchy. I now have to figure out how to disassemble and clean the thing, then relube, reassemble, and hope for the best...

One thing that would be nice would be a longterm commitment for spare parts.

There is someone that is looking for Ultegra 6700 cones... almost impossible to find now, although it is not clear if it is just not available, or poor parts distribution.

And, of course the 6800 and 8000 cones are different.
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Old 07-02-21, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
One thing that would be nice would be a longterm commitment for spare parts.

There is someone that is looking for Ultegra 6700 cones... almost impossible to find now, although it is not clear if it is just not available, or poor parts distribution.

And, of course the 6800 and 8000 cones are different.
Yeah, Shimano's parts support is woeful, and it's not helped by all these crazy arbitrary differences... I'm pretty sure it would have been perfectly feasible to ensure all their wheelset hubs would have used one of half a dozen types of cone instead of a different flavour for almost each and every one, it's insane. And it's absolutely criminal that they can't seem to support even their series hubs, what a bloody joke. But at least cone life is almost indefinite if you look after them (ensure preload is okay and occasionally feel for contamination by twirling the axle)... You can usually fudge in a cone that doesn't belong, but you've gotta be pretty lucky for the sealing not to suffer.

What really burns me up is that they don't even pretend to supply replacements for their fabulous RS80/81/Dura-Ace carbon/ally rims, which being rim brake, are unquestionably consumables. God damn.
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Old 07-02-21, 04:57 PM
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I think part of the bike company's problems are a difficulty adapting to an online marketing. It is not any one company, but all of them from frame builders to component vendors.

Something like spare parts would naturally fit into an online support model.

Bike shops might not like to stock all the spare parts to support 70 year old components. But it would be easy enough for a central vendor to stock and distribute the parts. Then every year or so put in an order of 1000 or so "genuine" Nuovo Record cones.

Or have derailleur hangers in stock ready to ship.

It is interesting that companies like Wheels Manufacturing can make a business of cloning cones, derailleur hangers, etc that the OEM companies refuse to support.
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Old 07-03-21, 05:01 AM
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
The one answer given is what i would have posted. I'm guessing it's what others would have posted too.
No point in a bunch of people posting the same comment over and again.

Get some shimano hubs, choose a quality rim with 32 holes, and use some double butted spokes.
I tend to agree. However cup and cone wheels, other than shimano and campy/fulcrum, does exist. My Fuji bike came with a pair of Oval branded cup and cone wheels. Cheapies, but work OK.

My main gripe with modern hubs is the idiotic rear wheel design, with the right hand bearing at or even behind the spoke flange. Its worse than old school screw on freewheels. Sadly even Shimano, Microspline does this now. I agree that classic shimano cup and cone hubs with a steel free hub body is still the best available. Id pick that for a wheel build.
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Old 07-03-21, 05:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Racing Dan View Post
I agree that classic shimano cup and cone hubs with a steel free hub body is still the best available.
You mean the one with the titanium freehub body
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