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The low standard of lockdown pedestrianism

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The low standard of lockdown pedestrianism

Old 07-17-21, 02:43 PM
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fredlord
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The low standard of lockdown pedestrianism

The bike paths that I'm about to give up on are teeming with oblivious nincompoops. They've been winkled out of their homes for "exercise" by Sydney's lockdown regulations that have recently become even more stringent. A large percentage of these people have obviously very little experience with being in the real world and many attempt to bring their safe little cyber world with them into the real world in the form of screens and earphones.

The good news is that previously super-busy roads have unclogged enough to be safe enough to ride. Australian drivers are probably among the worst in the western world. I'm keeping away from the walking dead.
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Old 07-17-21, 02:54 PM
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Is this the second round for you down there?

What you describe is exactly what late March 2020 through about June 2020 was here. The MUP was full of noob cyclists, runners, walkers and dog walkers and a few joggers that always confuse me because they take such fast steps and only move half the length of their foot further along.

With COVID ramping up again here, I wonder if we'll go through the same again. Though the roads here I really like to ride don't have much motor vehicle traffic anyhow.
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Old 07-17-21, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by fredlord View Post
The bike paths that I'm about to give up on are teeming with oblivious nincompoops. They've been winkled out of their homes for "exercise" by Sydney's lockdown regulations that have recently become even more stringent. A large percentage of these people have obviously very little experience with being in the real world and many attempt to bring their safe little cyber world with them into the real world in the form of screens and earphones.

The good news is that previously super-busy roads have unclogged enough to be safe enough to ride. Australian drivers are probably among the worst in the western world. I'm keeping away from the walking dead.

Australia July 2021= USA June 2020. I stayed off of the paths last year because I couldn't ride around all of the dog leashes and avoid pedestrians at the same time, and all of the streets were near empty. One warning, though, the few drivers who were on the road often drove like complete maniacs.
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Old 07-17-21, 02:57 PM
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Look at it as an an opportunity to discover some new routes. Our hike & bike trails are similarly choked with clueless masses and the downtown streets are heavily trafficked, so most of my routes take me through back-alleys, residential neighborhoods, outlaw urban singletracks, deserted warehouse parking lots, golf course cart paths, and other sparsely-used infrastructure. And nighttime riding is another great way to dodge humanity -- a good helmet and/or handlebar light allows you to enjoy public spaces in almost total solitude once everyone goes home for dinner.
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Old 07-17-21, 03:03 PM
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I could imagine issues with newbies on the paths... or full of pedestrians and pets.

On the open road, before the vaccine I would give pedestrians and other cyclists as much space as possible. Pull over to the center of the road when passing, etc.

However, I doubt that cycling was a big risk for passing the disease unless you're drafting someone for miles and miles.

I should start digging through my bike hoard and throwing a few up on Craigslist.
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Old 07-17-21, 03:26 PM
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You get what you deserve on MUPs
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Old 07-17-21, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by downhillmaster View Post
You get what you deserve on MUPs
You deserve what you get on the road.
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Old 07-17-21, 03:56 PM
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More worried about deer then pedestrians on our MUP
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Old 07-17-21, 03:57 PM
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I returned to biking just before the pandemic. I had wanted to for a long time but needed to lose weight first. I mainly wanted to ride in parks where I had been hiking, but they became very crowded. The major concerns for these parks were people with earbuds who couldn't hear me give notice and equestrians. One park has a lot of hills and curves through the woods, so not much line of sight. I bought a Timber bell (rings with movement) which helped give notice to equestrians, animals, and those without earbuds. Those with earbuds still couldn't hear me, however.

So I sought out new trails. Fortunately there's a very nice paved rail trail nearby. It's been busy, but there's more room and long sightlines. Also, horses are only allowed in one section, where they're typically pulling Amish buggies. So I mostly ride there. A downside is that I stay on my hardtail's top cog and wore it down last year.

But I'm glad to see people out. There have been a few grit teeth moments--like when a child darted in front of me to run from one side of a covered bridge to another--but most seem to learn quickly and are getting to see paths and trails that they likely didn't realize were there before. I've discovered a lot more, anyway, which has been fun.
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Old 07-17-21, 04:14 PM
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Multi-Use Paths always devolve the same way due to poor design. Not much has changed since the 1970s when I first encountered the MUP concept in parts of San Diego. Until very recently Fort Worth's Trinity Trails MUP was designed the same way: Mostly a standard suburban sidewalk, about 4' wide, thousands of squares of concrete arranged into meandering paths. Not wide enough to safely accommodate cyclists speeding by in opposite directions while weaving around joggers, pedestrians, kids and dogs on 50-yard-long retractable non-leash garrotes.

During the past year the MUP has been widened in some high traffic places. But it won't solve the inherent design flaw, or attitudes of users -- all of whom assume their usage trumps all other users.

My philosophy, as a cyclist, is to learn to live with the realities of MUP, slow down, and not holler "Onyerleft!" every few minutes, expecting everyone else to "Git outta mah way!" just because I'm on wheels. That's the same selfish attitude that makes streets unsafe for cyclists.

I've found plenty of reasonably safe places to ride, so I use the MUP only when absolutely necessary as part of a commuting route to and from downtown. Usually that's at night and off-peak hours, so there's rarely any conflict. If it's during peak hours, I expect to yield priority to pedestrians. I expect joggers to be wearing earbuds and deafened to my approach -- heck, I wear earbuds when I'm jogging, although I don't jog on the MUP. There are plenty of places in my neighborhood where I can jog safely while listening to music or podcasts.

As a cyclist I've observed how people use MUPs for years and IMnotsoHO, cyclists are the prime offenders to routine courtesy. A pedestrian meandering around the middle of a 4' wide path or jogger unexpectedly turning left into oncoming traffic isn't nearly as big a danger as my fellow cyclists blasting down the narrow path at 20 mph, head down and hands on the aero bars, or riding side-by-side with partners, expecting everyone else to get out of their way.

After years of watching that behavior, I understand why some dog owners leave their dogs on long leashes, especially the women walking with two or more dogs. They're fed up with being crowded by wheeled users on bicycles, skateboards, etc. The women are fed up with being harassed by men -- yeah, that's at least a weekly thing, per local police reports, and probably more frequent abuses that go unreported. They're using their dogs and leashes as boundary markers to give themselves some buffer against the nitwits.

Granted, that isn't most of us. Most cyclists I've seen aren't that selfish, aren't MUP bullies. But it takes only a handful to give us a bad reputation among other MUP users. I see the complaints on social media.

I walk and jog a lot in my neighborhood and get the same treatment from the non-cyclists on bikes. These aren't riders who self-identify as "cyclists." It's just transportation for them, after being de-horsed by DUIs, economic downturns, etc. Some of them are obviously mentally ill, shouting and cursing non-stop as they cruise around the neighborhood. There's zero expectation of common courtesy from them, so I keep my head on a swivel and eyes on stalks when I'm on the sidewalk in my own neighborhood. If these guys on bikes ever do use the streets, they're the salmon ninjas, the guys riding without lights at night on the wrong side of the road. Or weaving unexpectedly across six lanes of opposing traffic on the busy boulevard.

Complain if it makes you feel better. It won't change anything. People are people and every society develops its variation of the Tragedy of the Commons. Sometimes people will demand "trail marshals" or some variation of traffic cops and hall monitors for the infrastructure shared by pedestrians and cyclists. But there's rarely, perhaps never, any widespread support or consensus on regulating recreational infrastructure the same way we do motor vehicle infrastructure.

Last edited by canklecat; 07-17-21 at 04:17 PM.
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Old 07-17-21, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Iride01 View Post
Is this the second round for you down there?
Yes. This one seems to be more serious. I live in one of the Local Government Areas that has been turned into a Do Not Leave zone. Centennial Park and Rookwood Cemetery, my two favourite places to ride hard in, are now apparently off-limits to me. I have to find out if the Do Not Leave injunction apples to exercise as well as for work.
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Old 07-17-21, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by canklecat View Post
Multi-Use Paths always devolve the same way due to poor design. Not much has changed since the 1970s when I first encountered the MUP concept in parts of San Diego. Until very recently Fort Worth's Trinity Trails MUP was designed the same way: Mostly a standard suburban sidewalk, about 4' wide, thousands of squares of concrete arranged into meandering paths. Not wide enough to safely accommodate cyclists speeding by in opposite directions while weaving around joggers, pedestrians, kids and dogs on 50-yard-long retractable non-leash garrotes.

During the past year the MUP has been widened in some high traffic places. But it won't solve the inherent design flaw, or attitudes of users -- all of whom assume their usage trumps all other users.

My philosophy, as a cyclist, is to learn to live with the realities of MUP, slow down, and not holler "Onyerleft!" every few minutes, expecting everyone else to "Git outta mah way!" just because I'm on wheels. That's the same selfish attitude that makes streets unsafe for cyclists.

I've found plenty of reasonably safe places to ride, so I use the MUP only when absolutely necessary as part of a commuting route to and from downtown. Usually that's at night and off-peak hours, so there's rarely any conflict. If it's during peak hours, I expect to yield priority to pedestrians. I expect joggers to be wearing earbuds and deafened to my approach -- heck, I wear earbuds when I'm jogging, although I don't jog on the MUP. There are plenty of places in my neighborhood where I can jog safely while listening to music or podcasts.

As a cyclist I've observed how people use MUPs for years and IMnotsoHO, cyclists are the prime offenders to routine courtesy. A pedestrian meandering around the middle of a 4' wide path or jogger unexpectedly turning left into oncoming traffic isn't nearly as big a danger as my fellow cyclists blasting down the narrow path at 20 mph, head down and hands on the aero bars, or riding side-by-side with partners, expecting everyone else to get out of their way.

After years of watching that behavior, I understand why some dog owners leave their dogs on long leashes, especially the women walking with two or more dogs. They're fed up with being crowded by wheeled users on bicycles, skateboards, etc. The women are fed up with being harassed by men -- yeah, that's at least a weekly thing, per local police reports, and probably more frequent abuses that go unreported. They're using their dogs and leashes as boundary markers to give themselves some buffer against the nitwits.

Granted, that isn't most of us. Most cyclists I've seen aren't that selfish, aren't MUP bullies. But it takes only a handful to give us a bad reputation among other MUP users. I see the complaints on social media.

I walk and jog a lot in my neighborhood and get the same treatment from the non-cyclists on bikes. These aren't riders who self-identify as "cyclists." It's just transportation for them, after being de-horsed by DUIs, economic downturns, etc. Some of them are obviously mentally ill, shouting and cursing non-stop as they cruise around the neighborhood. There's zero expectation of common courtesy from them, so I keep my head on a swivel and eyes on stalks when I'm on the sidewalk in my own neighborhood. If these guys on bikes ever do use the streets, they're the salmon ninjas, the guys riding without lights at night on the wrong side of the road. Or weaving unexpectedly across six lanes of opposing traffic on the busy boulevard.

Complain if it makes you feel better. It won't change anything. People are people and every society develops its variation of the Tragedy of the Commons. Sometimes people will demand "trail marshals" or some variation of traffic cops and hall monitors for the infrastructure shared by pedestrians and cyclists. But there's rarely, perhaps never, any widespread support or consensus on regulating recreational infrastructure the same way we do motor vehicle infrastructure.

The MUPs in New England are a totally different story. I ride them and all kinds of roads, and often the MUPs are relatively sparsely populated and considerably faster than roads. The only roads where I can get longer uninterrupted high speed riding are rural state highways with wide shoulders.

I did give up on them last year, but this year, they're back to normal.

Sorry, but your story of inevitable decline just doesn't jibe with what's going on here.
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Old 07-17-21, 06:12 PM
  #13  
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Originally Posted by canklecat View Post
Multi-Use Paths always devolve the same way due to poor design. Not much has changed since the 1970s when I first encountered the MUP concept in parts of San Diego. Until very recently Fort Worth's Trinity Trails MUP was designed the same way: Mostly a standard suburban sidewalk, about 4' wide, thousands of squares of concrete arranged into meandering paths. Not wide enough to safely accommodate cyclists speeding by in opposite directions while weaving around joggers, pedestrians, kids and dogs on 50-yard-long retractable non-leash garrotes.

During the past year the MUP has been widened in some high traffic places. But it won't solve the inherent design flaw, or attitudes of users -- all of whom assume their usage trumps all other users.

My philosophy, as a cyclist, is to learn to live with the realities of MUP, slow down, and not holler "Onyerleft!" every few minutes, expecting everyone else to "Git outta mah way!" just because I'm on wheels. That's the same selfish attitude that makes streets unsafe for cyclists.

I've found plenty of reasonably safe places to ride, so I use the MUP only when absolutely necessary as part of a commuting route to and from downtown. Usually that's at night and off-peak hours, so there's rarely any conflict. If it's during peak hours, I expect to yield priority to pedestrians. I expect joggers to be wearing earbuds and deafened to my approach -- heck, I wear earbuds when I'm jogging, although I don't jog on the MUP. There are plenty of places in my neighborhood where I can jog safely while listening to music or podcasts.

As a cyclist I've observed how people use MUPs for years and IMnotsoHO, cyclists are the prime offenders to routine courtesy. A pedestrian meandering around the middle of a 4' wide path or jogger unexpectedly turning left into oncoming traffic isn't nearly as big a danger as my fellow cyclists blasting down the narrow path at 20 mph, head down and hands on the aero bars, or riding side-by-side with partners, expecting everyone else to get out of their way.

After years of watching that behavior, I understand why some dog owners leave their dogs on long leashes, especially the women walking with two or more dogs. They're fed up with being crowded by wheeled users on bicycles, skateboards, etc. The women are fed up with being harassed by men -- yeah, that's at least a weekly thing, per local police reports, and probably more frequent abuses that go unreported. They're using their dogs and leashes as boundary markers to give themselves some buffer against the nitwits.

Granted, that isn't most of us. Most cyclists I've seen aren't that selfish, aren't MUP bullies. But it takes only a handful to give us a bad reputation among other MUP users. I see the complaints on social media.

I walk and jog a lot in my neighborhood and get the same treatment from the non-cyclists on bikes. These aren't riders who self-identify as "cyclists." It's just transportation for them, after being de-horsed by DUIs, economic downturns, etc. Some of them are obviously mentally ill, shouting and cursing non-stop as they cruise around the neighborhood. There's zero expectation of common courtesy from them, so I keep my head on a swivel and eyes on stalks when I'm on the sidewalk in my own neighborhood. If these guys on bikes ever do use the streets, they're the salmon ninjas, the guys riding without lights at night on the wrong side of the road. Or weaving unexpectedly across six lanes of opposing traffic on the busy boulevard.

Complain if it makes you feel better. It won't change anything. People are people and every society develops its variation of the Tragedy of the Commons. Sometimes people will demand "trail marshals" or some variation of traffic cops and hall monitors for the infrastructure shared by pedestrians and cyclists. But there's rarely, perhaps never, any widespread support or consensus on regulating recreational infrastructure the same way we do motor vehicle infrastructure.
I have seen pretty much everything you described above in my local MUPs except (1) sexual harassment and (2) homeless people. I generally prefer to ride in the bike lane on local roads, which have better surfaces than the MUPS, although bike lanes have their own dangers too.
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Old 07-17-21, 06:23 PM
  #14  
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Originally Posted by SoSmellyAir View Post
I have seen pretty much everything you described above in my local MUPs except (1) sexual harassment and (2) homeless people. I generally prefer to ride in the bike lane on local roads, which have better surfaces than the MUPS, although bike lanes have their own dangers too.

MUP conversations usually break down because everyone just assumes they're the same everywhere, so people with crappy paths near them end up arguing with people who have good ones.
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Old 07-17-21, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
MUP conversations usually break down because everyone just assumes they're the same everywhere, so people with crappy paths near them end up arguing with people who have good ones.
Would I be arguing with you if I point out that my prior post was not intended as an argument with anyone who has different experiences on his or her local MUPs? Heh heh.
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Old 07-17-21, 06:47 PM
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Originally Posted by SoSmellyAir View Post
Would I be arguing with you if I point out that my prior post was not intended as an argument with anyone who has different experiences on his or her local MUPs? Heh heh.
You are correct, heh heh. The post you were quoting did state that this decline "always" happens , but you didn't actually repeat that.

But I'm sure we could find something to argue about if you want.

There's a short MUP near me that basically fits your squalor description, but it goes from Main St to nowhere worth going, so that one I avoid.
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Old 07-17-21, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by canklecat View Post
Multi-Use Paths always devolve the same way due to poor design. Not much has changed since the 1970s when I first encountered the MUP concept in parts of San Diego. Until very recently Fort Worth's Trinity Trails MUP was designed the same way: Mostly a standard suburban sidewalk, about 4' wide, thousands of squares of concrete arranged into meandering paths. Not wide enough to safely accommodate cyclists speeding by in opposite directions while weaving around joggers, pedestrians, kids and dogs on 50-yard-long retractable non-leash garrotes.

During the past year the MUP has been widened in some high traffic places. But it won't solve the inherent design flaw, or attitudes of users -- all of whom assume their usage trumps all other users.

My philosophy, as a cyclist, is to learn to live with the realities of MUP, slow down, and not holler "Onyerleft!" every few minutes, expecting everyone else to "Git outta mah way!" just because I'm on wheels. That's the same selfish attitude that makes streets unsafe for cyclists.

I've found plenty of reasonably safe places to ride, so I use the MUP only when absolutely necessary as part of a commuting route to and from downtown. Usually that's at night and off-peak hours, so there's rarely any conflict. If it's during peak hours, I expect to yield priority to pedestrians. I expect joggers to be wearing earbuds and deafened to my approach -- heck, I wear earbuds when I'm jogging, although I don't jog on the MUP. There are plenty of places in my neighborhood where I can jog safely while listening to music or podcasts.

As a cyclist I've observed how people use MUPs for years and IMnotsoHO, cyclists are the prime offenders to routine courtesy. A pedestrian meandering around the middle of a 4' wide path or jogger unexpectedly turning left into oncoming traffic isn't nearly as big a danger as my fellow cyclists blasting down the narrow path at 20 mph, head down and hands on the aero bars, or riding side-by-side with partners, expecting everyone else to get out of their way.

After years of watching that behavior, I understand why some dog owners leave their dogs on long leashes, especially the women walking with two or more dogs. They're fed up with being crowded by wheeled users on bicycles, skateboards, etc. The women are fed up with being harassed by men -- yeah, that's at least a weekly thing, per local police reports, and probably more frequent abuses that go unreported. They're using their dogs and leashes as boundary markers to give themselves some buffer against the nitwits.

Granted, that isn't most of us. Most cyclists I've seen aren't that selfish, aren't MUP bullies. But it takes only a handful to give us a bad reputation among other MUP users. I see the complaints on social media.

I walk and jog a lot in my neighborhood and get the same treatment from the non-cyclists on bikes. These aren't riders who self-identify as "cyclists." It's just transportation for them, after being de-horsed by DUIs, economic downturns, etc. Some of them are obviously mentally ill, shouting and cursing non-stop as they cruise around the neighborhood. There's zero expectation of common courtesy from them, so I keep my head on a swivel and eyes on stalks when I'm on the sidewalk in my own neighborhood. If these guys on bikes ever do use the streets, they're the salmon ninjas, the guys riding without lights at night on the wrong side of the road. Or weaving unexpectedly across six lanes of opposing traffic on the busy boulevard.

Complain if it makes you feel better. It won't change anything. People are people and every society develops its variation of the Tragedy of the Commons. Sometimes people will demand "trail marshals" or some variation of traffic cops and hall monitors for the infrastructure shared by pedestrians and cyclists. But there's rarely, perhaps never, any widespread support or consensus on regulating recreational infrastructure the same way we do motor vehicle infrastructure.
^ This. I respect all the users on the path. But I’m a dad with little ones. They are learning how to ride, be safe, get back over after they pass, etc.

I do think it’s arrogant to not realize “I was 7 once also, I did a ton of stupid stuff. So I’ll be gracious to those families learning to use the trail.”

And some families just kind of barely meander along 4 or 5 wide. Yes it’s frustrating, but they do the same thing in Walmart- so it’s not personal.
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Old 07-17-21, 08:24 PM
  #18  
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People are not the problem. The problem is ear buds and all kinds of electronic nonsense that dulls their senses and makes them loose awareness of what's happening around them,
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Old 07-17-21, 08:41 PM
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Originally Posted by downhillmaster View Post
You get what you deserve on MUPs
Around here we have an extraordinarily useful MUP network.

It is supplemented by some streetside bike paths, but there are some places that are very difficult to get to without going on a MUP.

So, the MUP is like a bike freeway leading from Springfield, OR to downtown Eugene, OR. One might be able to limit the time on the MUP, but completely avoiding it would take a person onto some mighty bad streets.

I'm trying to think. In Eugene, we have 2 freeways across the Willamette river, and one limited access 4 lane bridge (with rideable sidewalks).

Plus, there are 5 or 6 dedicated bicycle/pedestrian bridges.

If one wants to cross the river, one is much better off crossing using the bike path.

One day, I thought that the freeway would be the shortest path between 2 points across the river (1/2 mile on/off). So I decided to try it. What I hadn't counted on was the nice wide shoulders absolutely disappeared on the bridge. Never again.
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Old 07-17-21, 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
The MUPs in New England are a totally different story. I ride them and all kinds of roads, and often the MUPs are relatively sparsely populated and considerably faster than roads. The only roads where I can get longer uninterrupted high speed riding are rural state highways with wide shoulders.

I did give up on them last year, but this year, they're back to normal.

Sorry, but your story of inevitable decline just doesn't jibe with what's going on here.
Noted. I'll try to remember to modify my generalizations from "all" to "most" and from "inevitably" to "usually."

I've seen photos of good MUPs. I've just never seen or experienced one in person. Our extensive MUP throughout my region is mostly makeshift, just repurposing existing old utility easements, slapping on a coat of chipseal, some ridiculously narrow paving, or indifferently maintained gravel.

And usually it's the infrastructure that determines how it's used, rather than people misusing shared infrastructure. Good urban planning and infrastructure design are forms of nudge theory, accommodating the way real people use shared resources in the real world, rather than unrealistically expecting people to adapt to poor design.

Originally Posted by SoSmellyAir View Post
I have seen pretty much everything you described above in my local MUPs except (1) sexual harassment and (2) homeless people. I generally prefer to ride in the bike lane on local roads, which have better surfaces than the MUPS, although bike lanes have their own dangers too.
I'm not sure whether sexual harassment is a daily thing here on the MUP, but it is reported often enough in local social media to know there's a valid concern. Oddly, most of it seems to be reported along the most heavily traveled segments, rather than in the more isolated areas. Some of the complaints indicate the offenders may be mentally unstable or simply lack self restraint, or chose the most heavily used areas out of some attention-seeking compulsion. One of the offenders who was arrested seemed eccentric but not homeless or mentally ill. Either way, it's a valid concern to the victims.

I do occasionally see homeless folks camping along the more isolated segments of the MUP, but there are no extensive semi-permanent encampments, no reports of systematic harassment of trail users. In my experience, most homeless folks who choose to camp out in the parks and near the trails just want to be left alone. Those I've spoken with tend to be reclusive, sometimes with schizophrenia or mental illnesses that make them uncomfortable in crowds, and they dislike the noisy, aggressive vibe of the designated homeless shelters.

There has been one instance I know of in which a mentally ill homeless man brutally murdered a jogger. The victim's wife took her own life soon afterward out of grief. The murderer had a history of mental illness and hospitalization, but not violence (if I'm recalling correctly, it's been a few years, and that occurred in Dallas, not in Fort Worth where I live). Unfortunately that kind of horrific incident is what many folks remember when they expect the MUPs to be patrolled and enforced the same way as motor vehicle infrastructure.

Originally Posted by SkinGriz View Post
^ This. I respect all the users on the path. But I’m a dad with little ones. They are learning how to ride, be safe, get back over after they pass, etc.

I do think it’s arrogant to not realize “I was 7 once also, I did a ton of stupid stuff. So I’ll be gracious to those families learning to use the trail.”

And some families just kind of barely meander along 4 or 5 wide. Yes it’s frustrating, but they do the same thing in Walmart- so it’s not personal.
There are parts of our MUP that wind through the parks where lots of families congregate. My attitude is that I'm briefly borrowing their park, and ride accordingly. I don't expect them to move out of my way. Pedestrians, joggers, folks with families, etc., shouldn't feel pressured to constantly jump off the paved path to accommodate speeding cyclists. These trail segments are only a few hundred yards to maybe a mile in length, so it's not asking much to expect cyclists to slow down a bit and show some consideration and patience.

And those are the segments being widened. So it's relatively safer for cyclists crossing in opposing directions while passing pedestrians. But it'll be interesting to see whether simply enlarging and widening infrastructure actually improves it. There are theories among urban planners and highway designers that traffic always expands to accommodate expanded infrastructure, so the same traffic problems eventually persist.

I doubt the initiative to expand the local MUP will continue. It was a pet project of the former mayor, who was also an active cyclist and jogger. There was a lot of political antipathy toward that mayor last year, including disdain for accommodating cyclists when some residents feel their own neighborhood deteriorating infrastructure is being neglected in favor of cosmetic improvements that benefit a limited demographic where gentrification is the priority.

There are also often alternate routes -- a parallel crushed gravel path that's much wider than the pavement, easy to ride with anything other than skinny road bike tires at maximum inflation; and paved roads for cars with side parking, a speed limit of 15 mph and, in my experience, preferable for cycling than the paved MUP.
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Old 07-17-21, 09:18 PM
  #21  
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
People are not the problem. The problem is ear buds and all kinds of electronic nonsense that dulls their senses and makes them loose awareness of what's happening around them,
There is that.
I took my 7 yo on a mini destination ride. I didn’t take into account how many people would be there. Half the people on their phones not paying attention.

She stayed close to my wheel. Listened to me. Hovered over her brake levers. Rang her bell when squeezing through tight spots. She did great. Told her I was proud of her.
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Old 07-17-21, 09:54 PM
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
People are not the problem. The problem is ear buds and all kinds of electronic nonsense that dulls their senses and makes them loose awareness of what's happening around them,
I suppose loose awareness wouldn't be ideal. One must keep their awareness firm and tight. If left unchecked, loose awareness eventually leads to limp and flaccid awareness. There is no coming back from limp and flaccid awareness.


At least you are consistent for your hate of ear buds.
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Old 07-18-21, 05:18 AM
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
I suppose loose awareness wouldn't be ideal. One must keep their awareness firm and tight. If left unchecked, loose awareness eventually leads to limp and flaccid awareness. There is no coming back from limp and flaccid awareness.


At least you are consistent for your hate of ear buds.
They call them *multiuse* paths in my area. I’ve seen all kinds of uses from sitting in lawn chairs to laying on beach towels to all kinds of other stuff. I figure riding with headphones and earphones is one of those multi uses. I take it on myself to pass safely. And by gosh it seems to work. It does require the occasional slowing to a stop. I figure I can get plenty of fast riding on the road.

And I do this successfully…while wearing earbuds!
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Old 07-18-21, 06:35 AM
  #24  
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Originally Posted by MattTheHat View Post
And I do this successfully…while wearing earbuds!
You crazy fool! Don't you know ear buds are why MUPs are dangerous?!

...I wear ear buds on every solo ride.
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Old 07-18-21, 07:01 AM
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
You crazy fool! Don't you know ear buds are why MUPs are dangerous?!

...I wear ear buds on every solo ride.
Yup, me too. Guilty. So much dangerous!
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