Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Classic and Vintage Bicycles: Whats it Worth? Appraisals.
Reload this Page >

Vintage French road racing bike, unknown builder, Shimano 600, Campy Record.

Notices
Classic and Vintage Bicycles: Whats it Worth? Appraisals. Use this subforum for all requests as to "How much is this vintage bike worth?"Do NOT try to sell it in here, use the Marketplaces.

Vintage French road racing bike, unknown builder, Shimano 600, Campy Record.

Old 07-26-21, 09:53 AM
  #1  
ryan_c
troglodyte
Thread Starter
 
ryan_c's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: the tunnels
Posts: 1,291

Bikes: Crust Romanceur, VO Polyvalent, Surly Steamroller, others?

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Vintage French road racing bike, unknown builder, Shimano 600, Campy Record.

I've got a weird one (mostly because it's a very nice bike but I don't know the builder, so I'm not sure how that affects value) that I'm looking to sell and don't quite know the value of.
Also, this is probably way more info than anyone needs to value the bike. Sorry.

I have no idea who built this bike. I know it's French because Columbus tubing sticker is the French one, pedals were French threaded, and, well, the details just say French. If there's a lug savant out there, maybe they can tell from the lugwork and the BB stamping? I suspect that it was originally built for someone in particular as the rear brake cable was originally internally routed, going in thru a hole in the side of the top tube, then straight out the back THROUGH the seatpost and coming out at the bottom of the seatpost clamp split (I have heard this referred to a something you see in "constructeur bikes" but this is NOT my area of expertise). Geometry is somewhat aggressive, definitely oriented towards road racing from what I can tell.

Nice lug cutouts. Paint not in the best shape but not the worst. Chrome in good shape.
Full Shimano 600 groupset, even have the pedals, only exceptions are the wheels. Which are Campagnolo Record hubs laced to Campagnolo Montreal 76 rims, and the stem which is the Dura Ace "hidden bolt" stem I believe it's called.
I picked up the bike minus a wheelset from someone who bought it for the wheels that were on it, and happened to have these wheels laying around, although oddly enough the wheels that came on it were identical CR hubs laced to tubular rims instead of clincher.

I converted it to a city bike as you can see, but I have and plan on including with the bike the original Shimano 600 pedals, 3T handlebars, Shimano 600 brake levers, and Campy skewers, if someone wants to revert it to a period-correct race bike.









ryan_c is offline  
Old 07-26-21, 10:07 AM
  #2  
bikemig 
Senior Member
 
bikemig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Middle Earth (aka IA)
Posts: 18,796

Bikes: A bunch of old bikes and a few new ones

Mentioned: 161 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5234 Post(s)
Liked 1,862 Times in 1,217 Posts
Those are super LJ shifters. I'd keep those and sell them apart from the bike. I'd guess a Motobecane.
bikemig is offline  
Likes For bikemig:
Old 07-26-21, 10:10 AM
  #3  
ryan_c
troglodyte
Thread Starter
 
ryan_c's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: the tunnels
Posts: 1,291

Bikes: Crust Romanceur, VO Polyvalent, Surly Steamroller, others?

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Wow, good eye, thanks - wasn't familiar with those. I hate to part out a complete bike but I wonder if it'd be worth my while to do so.
ryan_c is offline  
Old 07-26-21, 10:14 AM
  #4  
bikemig 
Senior Member
 
bikemig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Middle Earth (aka IA)
Posts: 18,796

Bikes: A bunch of old bikes and a few new ones

Mentioned: 161 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5234 Post(s)
Liked 1,862 Times in 1,217 Posts
It's a cool bike. I like the build a lot but I'm not sure if the flat bar will help sell it or not. The shifters are easy to swap out and have a value. I like mine a lot. So no I wouldn't part this out but I'd hold back the shifters.
bikemig is offline  
Likes For bikemig:
Old 07-26-21, 11:20 AM
  #5  
juvela
Senior Member
 
juvela's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Alta California
Posts: 11,116
Mentioned: 308 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2637 Post(s)
Liked 972 Times in 756 Posts
-----

MauriceMoss shall recognise the builder straightaway

the clues are the combination of lugs and the shell cutouts paired with a tube set from A.L. Colombo

the cutout in the seat lug is a bit of a tell IIRC


-----
juvela is offline  
Old 07-28-21, 01:17 AM
  #6  
Insidious C. 
Crash Test Dummy
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: PNW
Posts: 1,343

Bikes: One of everything and three of everything French

Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 349 Post(s)
Liked 181 Times in 111 Posts
Possible Viner.
__________________
I.C.
Insidious C. is offline  
Likes For Insidious C.:
Old 07-28-21, 10:17 AM
  #7  
ryan_c
troglodyte
Thread Starter
 
ryan_c's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: the tunnels
Posts: 1,291

Bikes: Crust Romanceur, VO Polyvalent, Surly Steamroller, others?

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by Insidious C. View Post
Possible Viner.
Wow, I am looking at a bunch of Viner frames online, and while I can't find a 100% match, I see bits and pieces (the lugs, the cable guides) across various Viners, just not all on the same one. This seems like a great possibility. Thank you!

Does anyone have a pricing ballpark for this? I had put it on craigslist for $1200 (I'm pretty sure that's high) assuming people would be lowballing me / trying to negotiate, but no inquiries. Want to know a proper price before I try to sell it to the "true bike nerds" heh.
ryan_c is offline  
Old 07-28-21, 10:26 AM
  #8  
Phil_gretz
Journeyman Bike Commuter
 
Phil_gretz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Alexandria, VA
Posts: 6,826

Bikes: '79 Peugeot PXN10LE, '88 Fuji Saratoga, '13 Motobecane Fantom29 HT, '16 Motobecane Turino Pro Disc, '16 Motobecane Gran Premio Elite, '18 Velobuild VB-R-022, '21 Tsunami SNM-100

Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1363 Post(s)
Liked 1,321 Times in 711 Posts
If "the tunnels" refers to New York City, then you're in a higher-priced zip code. I have a hard time seeing more than $500 in that bike set up that way. But what do I know?
Phil_gretz is offline  
Old 07-28-21, 12:55 PM
  #9  
ryan_c
troglodyte
Thread Starter
 
ryan_c's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: the tunnels
Posts: 1,291

Bikes: Crust Romanceur, VO Polyvalent, Surly Steamroller, others?

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Chicago, actually. I don't literally live in the tunnels.
$500 gets you a pretty "ordinary" road bike 'round here with some occasional exceptions, no high-end parts generally. But perhaps my shooting for the moon is not the best strategy.
ryan_c is offline  
Old 07-28-21, 04:29 PM
  #10  
unterhausen
Randomhead
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Happy Valley, Pennsylvania
Posts: 22,026
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked 1,627 Times in 1,169 Posts
what is the bb thread? Seat post size?
unterhausen is offline  
Old 07-29-21, 01:08 PM
  #11  
ryan_c
troglodyte
Thread Starter
 
ryan_c's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: the tunnels
Posts: 1,291

Bikes: Crust Romanceur, VO Polyvalent, Surly Steamroller, others?

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by unterhausen View Post
what is the bb thread? Seat post size?
The seatpost size is 26.8 if my memory serves me right.
I never removed the cranks/BB to check threading but the pedals were French threaded so if the BB is anything but French threaded I'll eat my Sidi's.
ryan_c is offline  
Old 07-29-21, 07:59 PM
  #12  
unterhausen
Randomhead
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Happy Valley, Pennsylvania
Posts: 22,026
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked 1,627 Times in 1,169 Posts
Since the bike has been repainted, the pedals are pretty much useless info, as is the decal

Although if it's really 26.8, I wouldn't think Viner would have had anything to do with it.
unterhausen is offline  
Old 07-31-21, 04:11 PM
  #13  
ryan_c
troglodyte
Thread Starter
 
ryan_c's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: the tunnels
Posts: 1,291

Bikes: Crust Romanceur, VO Polyvalent, Surly Steamroller, others?

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by unterhausen View Post
Since the bike has been repainted, the pedals are pretty much useless info, as is the decal

Although if it's really 26.8, I wouldn't think Viner would have had anything to do with it.
Well unterhausen, I hope these shoes taste good because I believe the BB is Italian threaded. The right side lockring is stamped "36X24T" which I believe means Italian. Plus it's 70mm wide. Sheldon Brown sez Italian used on Italian bikes and "some high-end French Bicycles."
And I confirmed that the post is 26.8mm. However, there is currently a Viner frameset on ebay with a 26.8mm post according to the seller. So perhaps some used that diameter seatpost, and some did not? I also see that 26.8 is seen on Italian bikes so I am totally lost.
(As an aside, even if the frame was repainted, the sticker's on the fork, which is chrome, so that has nothing to do with the paint, eh? Why would they put a sticker on a fork they didn't paint but not put any on the bike? Right?)

So we've got, Simplex seatpost binder bolt (French), French threaded pedals, a French Columbus sticker on the fork, and a bb used on Italian/French bikes. So to me that says French with a VAGUE possibility of Italian but who the f made it I still have no clue. Oh well.
ryan_c is offline  
Old 08-05-21, 03:37 AM
  #14  
MauriceMoss
Senior Member
 
MauriceMoss's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 458

Bikes: None in ridable condition

Mentioned: 94 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 107 Post(s)
Liked 229 Times in 95 Posts
The frame to me looks very Italian. In fact, I can't recall any French made frames that used those lugs. It doesn't look like a constructeur level of work; it's more likely to have come from of a mid volume maker. And, with a 70mm Italian threaded shell, chances if being French are slim to nul.

There were some Italian companies (including CBT Italia and Tecnotelai) that built a fair number of frames for the French market, but this frame doesn't look like it came from either of those shops.

Also, while anything is possible, I'd be inclined to think it's not a Viner, either. I've never seen those kinds of stampings on Viner BBs. Granted, since the frame's been repainted, those could have been made before the paint was applied.


When it comes to the lugs with those curly cutouts (I guess this is gonna be more of a reference post than for ID of this particular frame), they were not uncommon on Italian bikes, but not nearly as popular as the Italian Prugnat S4 knockoffs (which may have been made by Agrati, at least according to Boeris).
I'm not certain who manufactured these lugs but they appear to have come in at least 3 variations:

If you look at some Gentleman and Super Gentleman Olmos of mid to late 70s, you'll find the same cutouts but with plain sides - no side cutouts (Style #1):







If you look at late 70s Guerciottis of roughly the same period, you'll see the same 'curly' cutouts, but with Prugnat 62/S/D-esque 'hooks' on the side (Style #2).






Finally, on some Viners (relatively few) you'll see those cutouts with small triangular cutouts on the side, like on the mystery frame here (Style #3). Viner employed Style #1 more commonly than #3.








These lugs (in the three variations) show up somewhat at least somewhat regularly on frames from these marques:

Leri - Style #1
Viner - Style #1 (more common) and Style #3 (less common)
Olmo - Style #1
Bottecchia - Style #1
Rossignoli - Style #1 (might be contract builds by someone else)
Elios - Style #1 (might be contract builds by someone else)
BMZ (this includes a lot of brands they built for, like Lazzaretti, Performance, Palo Alto etc.) - Style #1
Guerciotti - Style #2
Lino Tempesta - Style #2
Renesto - Style #2
Aquila - Style #3
Freschi - Style #3


Style #3 is more commonly found on Aquila and Freschi frames than on Viners:












I'm not claiming the mystery frame here is either Aquila or Freschi (the frame isn't fancy enough for a Freschi and I don't think Freschi built any frames without fast back stays, did he?), just trying to show that these lugs aren't exclusive to one frame maker.


It might help the ID efforts to get a few more closeup pictures of:

Full rear dropouts (with both seat and chain stay ends visible)
Full front dropouts (with ends visible)
Side of the seat lug (with the full seat stay cap visible)
Brake bridge (including any reinforcement tangs, if any)
The entry/exit points for the internal cable routing on the top tube


As for the value, I too have a hard time seeing this go for more than $500, considering it's an unknown frame with Shimano 600 drivetrain.

Last edited by MauriceMoss; 08-05-21 at 05:51 PM.
MauriceMoss is offline  
Likes For MauriceMoss:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.