tomato coupe

Conservative forces? Linear? Stop with the sexy talk ...

(Aerodynamic drag is a quadratic function of speed.)

ofajen

Might as well. The OP put his hands over his ears at the outset regarding the only relevant factors, i.e. the ones that create a power requirement that is nonlinear in speed.

Otto

terrymorse 

I believe that should read “air drag (force) is a function of the air speed squared”.

Power to overcome air drag is f(v^3)

wolfchild

I never told OP what he should or shouldn't eat....He claims to be a very experienced cyclist who can ride for 7 hours non-stop with an almost elite level performance on a heavy bike, he should know how to fuel his rides.

livedarklions

​​​​​​I didn't say you told op what to eat. You said op's fuel shouldn't be an issue. I would say you don't have any experience that would allow you to say that you have any idea what the fuel needs of a 125 pound high-performance endurance cyclist is, and whether it's practical to carry that amount of fuel over long distances.
And the irony of you posting yet another "should" post as a "refutation" of my telling you to stop telling people they should do x when you really know nothing about the issue is hilarious. Your own goal is noted.

wolfchild

He is not a high-performance endurance pro cyclist....Let me repeat this one last time: It's easy to carry enough fuel to sustain a ride which lasts for a couple of hours, another option is to stop along the way and buy something to eat.

koala logs

I wouldn't call myself a high performance endurance cyclist. My average moving speed is only "average" for a recreational rider.

I'll wait for outdoor conditions to improve to test what I've learned from this thread (work harder on the climbs, take it easy on the flats. During windy months, the smog disappears and humidity gets significantly below 100% in the mountains to make climbs a lot more tolerable so I can attempt climbing at indoor training pace. Until then, I'll just keep training indoors.

I have read about animals. The smaller ones have to eat more food in terms of % of their body weight than bigger animals. This is applicable to mammals and birds. They have to eat even more in colder climates (smaller creatures are less efficient at retaining body heat)

ofajen

Sure, I got a little sloppy there amidst a bunch of follow up posts. Better covered in post #73.

Otto

koala logs

I only take stuff from the fridge. That's peanut butter wheat bread for me. Very easy to digest and I really love the taste but perhaps, not the best fuel to bring? I avoid buying anything outside to eat nor spend extra money on cycling or running -specific fuel. I would have if spending money was easy.

I barely have money to spend on the hobby atm and probably for a long time due to embarrassing work and financial mistakes lately. I should have been taking vitamin B12 much earlier for extra brian cells and avoid doing stupid things.

livedarklions

Where'd I say "pro"? I took the premise of your answer seriously, and no if OP is actually riding fast for 7 hours on a heavy bike, it does not follow that keeping enough fuel on board is a simple matter for a 125 pound person.

livedarklions

I really wasn't alleging you were, my point was that Wolfie's "if/then" statement didn't actually make sense.

terrymorse 

For a couple of hours?

Heck, you don’t need to take in any nutrition for just a 2-hour ride.

The human body stores at least 6 grams of glycogen per kilogram. There’s no way that will run out in a 2-hour ride.

livedarklions

Missed the part where OP said "good up to 7 hours" I see.

As to the stop and buy something... thanks Corporal Obvious (you've been demoted).

wolfchild

I agree with you....I regularly do fasted rides between 2 - 3 hours long. but I also keep the intensity lower. No intervals when fasted. Any well trained cyclists who doesn't have health issues should be able to ride fasted about 3 hours.

livedarklions

Let's allow for people with "abnormal" metabolic issues, but OP made very clear they weren't talking about anything less than 7 hours.

livedarklions

To the extent this question was raised at all in this thread, it was about >7 hrs. Again, you have no insight as to what a 125 pound person "should" be able to carry that would prepare them for such a non-stop ride.

terrymorse 

Okay, say it’s longer than 2 hours. About 30 grams of carbs per hour ought to be enough for a 125-lb rider. That’s slightly more than one Clif Shot. Pretty easy to carry.

The Everest Challenge had awful tasting nutrition, so on the second day, I put 5 Clif Shots in my pocket, consuming one per hour. That, plus the sport drink from the feed station, was plenty nutrition. I weighed 135 lbs.

livedarklions

Don't know, don't care what a Clif shot or an Everest Challenge is--I just eat food on my rides and I've long been over the notion that anything over a few hours need be non-stop. I'm just saying that the nutrition needs for a 7+ hour ride is not at all the same question as a 2 hour ride or anything in the neighborhood of a 2 hour ride. And I think people range pretty far in their metabolic variables so that to discuss what's typical ("ought to") for any given person for a 7 hour ride is a fool's errand.

terrymorse 

Not clear to me who "you" is (the "singular" or the "everybody" you), but out there in the Sports Nutrition world, there is some pretty good insight on the carbohydrate needs for a multi-hour effort.

This formula[1] should cover most people in most situations, including races:

Carbs consumed (g/hr) = Body weight (lbs) / 3

Pretty simple.

--
1. Infinit Nutrition, Nutrition for Endurance Athletes 101

burnthesheep

I mostly agree. If doing a Z2 ride, the burn rate isn't there to justify the intake. I use those electrolyte tabs with zero nutrition otherwise for rides like that. Even an interval ride of under an hour isn't needed. I'll do it though so you get that placebo sugar in mouth taste effect where you taste it so your body reacts.

Now, if someone is going to ride sweetspot for a few hours nonstop and they've got a solid w/kg figure for that........they might very well need it. Because then you're operating at a high % of ftp burning glycogen AND you don't weigh a lot so the "per kilo" is less. But how many people can ride true sweetspot for hours at a time? They can, but it's not that many I would think. So largely, still not usually needed.

For a 4 hour ride though, you start getting into routine daily meal/snack schedules. Not ride nutrition, just "life". So can see some snacking taking place for the discomfort of standard hunger pains to avoid carrying a whole sandwich meal with you.

wolfchild

You making this way more complicated than what it really is.

livedarklions

I was referring to Wolfie, but covering "most people in most situations" leaves a lot of weasel room--if you're accustomed to probability statements, that could easily mean that if the probability of fitting any given person is 51% and any situation is 51%, then the proportion of people who that formula would actually apply to in any given activity is 51% x 51%, or approximately 26%.

I think if someone is saying they're finding something problematic, telling them they "shouldn't" find it problematic or they "ought to be" ok is pretty lame.

BTW, there's really no danger that I'm going to confuse you with Wolfie. I'd take what you're saying here a little more seriously because you're not a relatively big guy like he and I are.

Gotta say, using a web page of a company that sells supplements as an authoritative source is a bold move on your part. You realize those are just disguised sales pitches, right?

livedarklions

I'll simplify it for you--7 hours is 5 hours longer than 2.

wolfchild

Ok, so money is an issue for you and yet you carbo-load and stuff yourself with unnecessary calories wasting food and not improving anything ??...You're not an elite level endurance athlete and there is no need for you to carbo-load...Instead of carbo-loading , try to split all those carbs into smaller portions and bring them along with you on your ride to eat along the way. For a skinny lightweight like yourself it's way better and more efficient to eat smaller portions more frequently than carbo-loading and stuffing yourself with unnecessary calories...If money is an issue, there are plenty of cheap carbs out there which are suitable for fueling yourself on a ride.

terrymorse 

While ​​​​​livedarklions may think recommendations for nutrition on long rides is a "fool's errand", much research has been done on the subject.

2 hours or 7+ hours, the duration of a multi-hour doesn't affect how much nutrition a person is able to consume per hour.

And when it comes to how much carbohydrate a person is able to metabolize in an hour, people are rather similar.

The upper limit of carbohydrate digestion is reported to be 60 g/h, although rates of 90 g/h are possible when using a cocktail of different types of carbs.



Carbohydrate intake guidelines for well trained athletes (aspiring athletes may need to adjust the recommendations downwards).
Source: Jeudendrup, A., A Step Towards Personalized Sports Nutrition: Carbohydrate Intake During Exercise, Sports Med. 2014

NOTE: These recommendations are the same for all ranges of body weight. From Jeudendrup 2014: