A lot of the recent "innovation" is a bad bargain for anyone not pushing a competitiv
#851
I am potato.
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 3,108
Bikes: Only precision built, custom high performance elitist machines of the highest caliber. 🍆
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1784 Post(s)
Liked 1,622 Times
in
928 Posts
My post seems to have hit a nerve with a few people yet everyone has selectively edited out the part we are all being ridiculous discussing price points when 50% of the world lives on less than $6.00 a day. From the preferred Continental GP5000 tire to Wahoo Bolt bike computer are all exorbitant luxuries for billions of people.
Yep. Half the World lives on $6/day. But the goin' rate where half the world resides is not $6.
It's easy to zoom out or change scope until all comparisons lose meaning. It's easy to cherry pick data, or find motivated reasoning to make yourself & you alone morally superior.
Exist in the First World on $6/day. I dare you, or any one...The market here, where there is internet, community, society, mobility, empowerment, resources, infrastructure, just does not support that cost of doing business (meaning: running you life) in the First World. It's a nonsense data point if not adjusted for local market factors.
There's a reason people move to the coast, make all their money & then retire to the Plains States, or some place tropical with a righteous sense of accomplishment. Too bad the poor suckers, the takers, & the hangers-on can't or won't be as industrious & motivated as you...Right?
Riches are meaningless. The sooner a person realizes that, the more interesting & influential person they are going to be. Galt's rationalizations we're just a way to justify being an entitled, righteous A-hole. A delusional taker & an ingrate of the highest order.
*shrug*
BTW: I retired at 42. My bikes are expressions of creativity, resourcefulness, & perseverance. What they cost is meaningless.
There is little that is less interesting than decadence & humble bragging dollar value.
__________________
I shouldn't have to "make myself more visible;" Drivers should just stop running people over.
Car dependency is a tax.
I shouldn't have to "make myself more visible;" Drivers should just stop running people over.
Car dependency is a tax.
#852
Banned.
Oh and I liked them packaged nicely and free of damage when it gets to my doorstep
If you can't give me your bikes, money will do! Since you find riches meaningless, to me, it's a matter of death and living so yeah, I need it! Give me some!
#853
I am potato.
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 3,108
Bikes: Only precision built, custom high performance elitist machines of the highest caliber. 🍆
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1784 Post(s)
Liked 1,622 Times
in
928 Posts
If you really mean what you say, give your bikes to me free of cost, including shipping, taxes, and all other possible costs it may incur!
Oh and I liked them packaged nicely and free of damage when it gets to my doorstep
If you can't give me your bikes, money will do! Since you find riches meaningless, to me, it's a matter of death and living so yeah, I need it! Give me some!
Oh and I liked them packaged nicely and free of damage when it gets to my doorstep
If you can't give me your bikes, money will do! Since you find riches meaningless, to me, it's a matter of death and living so yeah, I need it! Give me some!
I said what they cost is meaningless.
I did not say they don't have value.
Last edited by base2; 07-24-22 at 11:49 PM.
#854
Banned.
And no, I'm not joking, I'm serious!
#855
I am potato.
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 3,108
Bikes: Only precision built, custom high performance elitist machines of the highest caliber. 🍆
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1784 Post(s)
Liked 1,622 Times
in
928 Posts
(& I too, am being serious.)
(...seriously.)
Let's stop this.
__________________
I shouldn't have to "make myself more visible;" Drivers should just stop running people over.
Car dependency is a tax.
I shouldn't have to "make myself more visible;" Drivers should just stop running people over.
Car dependency is a tax.
#856
Banned.
I believe you. But how far are you willing to explore the "meaningless" of riches.
I am still serious about having a new bike. Nothing fancy, best I can find or build with $1000 budget I simply don't have $1000. Not even $100 free dollars! There's not even enough to satisfy all my food cravings to meet my calorie demands for training!
I know that money won't give me true happiness but life would be a lot less stressful and less painful if only I had enough to assure me and my mom won't end up homeless in the near future.
I am still serious about having a new bike. Nothing fancy, best I can find or build with $1000 budget I simply don't have $1000. Not even $100 free dollars! There's not even enough to satisfy all my food cravings to meet my calorie demands for training!
I know that money won't give me true happiness but life would be a lot less stressful and less painful if only I had enough to assure me and my mom won't end up homeless in the near future.
#857
Full Member
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 425
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 167 Post(s)
Liked 291 Times
in
163 Posts
I think we're all losing sight of the important issue -- road bikes sold today ARE KILLING PEOPLE because they are not set up like TikTok's bike. By his own estimate, 5% of new cyclists DIE because they are sold bikes that are comfortable. (One can only imagine how many more die because they buy comfortable clothes and shoes!)
Spelling mistake aside, the good Prof Clueless has admitted the truth in the paragraph you quoted: "my thin students have purchased road bikes (in partial emulation of me their prof) made of unyeilding junk..."
He's just trying to wind folks up, he knows he is talking unmitigated bollocks. Either that, or he is a parachute salesman using some kind of subliminal messaging.
#858
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 4,083
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2333 Post(s)
Liked 2,097 Times
in
1,314 Posts
Who said "always"
Yes, there is a contradiction. Value or relative bargain is subjective. Frankly, I value my opinion more than yours. I will always buy Dura Ace or Red, if supply chain permits. And, I do not care what others think of my choice. If I am going to spend 1,000 hours per year doing something, another thousand or two on the top of the line components isn't even noise. OTOH, broken components are no bargain. I have never had DA break. I have had lessor stuff break. N = 1
#859
Tragically Ignorant
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 15,613
Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8186 Post(s)
Liked 9,098 Times
in
5,054 Posts
No, the OP in that thread has made it clear in well over a year of starting threads that he does nothing but very short rides. It's not snobbery to notice that it really doesn't matter what he wears on such short rides. Nice try at the deflection, though.
After posting this, I realized you must have looked at my post history to pull that quote from another thread. Pretty sure it wasn't my "nerve" that got hit.
Last edited by livedarklions; 07-25-22 at 05:08 AM.
#860
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 39,221
Mentioned: 211 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18404 Post(s)
Liked 15,496 Times
in
7,318 Posts
Likes For indyfabz:
#861
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Yamaguchi City, Japan
Posts: 1,091
Bikes: Trek Madone 5.2 SL 2007, Look KG386, R022 Re-framed Azzurri Primo, Felt Z5, Trek F7.3 FX
Mentioned: 36 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 404 Post(s)
Liked 85 Times
in
73 Posts
Spelling mistake aside, the good Prof Clueless has admitted the truth in the paragraph you quoted: "my thin students have purchased road bikes (in partial emulation of me their prof) made of unyeilding junk..." He's just trying to wind folks up, he knows he is talking unmitigated bollocks. Either that, or he is a parachute salesman using some kind of subliminal messaging.
I think my bike (and beng1's bike) are the business, and that current road bikes with high headtubes are... (if you want bling, rolex, cosplay, to admire engineering very good but) a monumental, and deceitful waste of money for anyone that wants to ride fast, keep fit, and not have to spend on maintenance.
My thin graduating student (partly I think in emulation of me, his professor) bought a typical contemporary "entry level road bike" made of aluminium with torso to the wind (i.e not long and low).
It was made of aluminium, like a mountain bike, with a sit up and parachute geometry like a mountain bike, but with road bike handle bars. He (my student) thought it was a road bike. I don't know what became of him, but from several years ago he has stopped posting to SNS.
It had a junk geometry and it was made of unyielding junk (aluminium).
I have been trying to think of a way of explaining why some roadbike drawbacks (such as weight) do not matter much, whereas others (aerodynamics and flex) really do.
It seems to me that weight does not result in a change that varies according to effort. If you ride a heavy bike up a hill relaxed way, or blast up a hill with effort, I don't think that the heavy bike penalises either attempt (relaxed or effortful) differently. The penalty is there whatever speed you ride and does not increase with effort (?? afaik()
However, suspension and aerodynamics make a difference that gets worse with increased effort.
If you try harder on an aluminium bike you get your nether regions smashed up, and the more you try the more the bumps beat your perineum to a pulp.
If you try harder on a comfort bike with that parachute that you are pulling behind you then the more you try the more the parachute tugs (at the cube of speed?).
I found these effects, that get worse with increase effort, to be highly demotivating.
If you get a flexible (steel, titanium or carbon) bike which puts your torso in a low position you will fly and love flying imho.
Tim
Last edited by timtak; 07-25-22 at 07:06 AM.
#862
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Wake Forest, NC
Posts: 5,768
Bikes: 1989 Cinelli Supercorsa
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3498 Post(s)
Liked 2,911 Times
in
1,766 Posts
I brought it up, but it was never addressed: How is a bike that give you a greater workout (i.e., less aero) a bad thing for losing weight, but an aero bike that puts the rider in a more-streamlines, more efficient position is somehow better for losing weight?
Likes For smd4:
#863
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Far beyond the pale horizon.
Posts: 14,259
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4245 Post(s)
Liked 1,350 Times
in
936 Posts
Yes, there is a contradiction. Value or relative bargain is subjective. Frankly, I value my opinion more than yours. I will always buy Dura Ace or Red, if supply chain permits. And, I do not care what others think of my choice. If I am going to spend 1,000 hours per year doing something, another thousand or two on the top of the line components isn't even noise. OTOH, broken components are no bargain. I have never had DA break. I have had lessor stuff break. N = 1
You are free to do whatever you want. That doesn't mean your choices necessarily make any sense. it just doesn't. People make dumb choices all the time.
You do care! You wouldn't have written about it if you really didn't care.
You are the second person in this thread that is overly insecure about their choices.
Last edited by njkayaker; 07-25-22 at 08:35 AM.
#864
Klaatu..Verata..Necktie?
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 17,913
Bikes: Litespeed Ultimate, Ultegra; Canyon Endurace, 105; Battaglin MAX, Chorus; Bianchi 928 Veloce; Ritchey Road Logic, Dura Ace; Cannondale R500 RX100; Schwinn Circuit, Sante; Lotus Supreme, Dura Ace
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10397 Post(s)
Liked 11,860 Times
in
6,072 Posts
....I think my bike (and beng1's bike) are the business, and that current road bikes with high headtubes are... (if you want bling, rolex, cosplay, to admire engineering very good but) a monumental, and deceitful waste of money for anyone that wants to ride fast, keep fit, and not have to spend on maintenance.....
So, having started from a faulty premise, you've built an entire edifice on that mistake.
__________________
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."
"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."
"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
Likes For genejockey:
#865
Tragically Ignorant
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 15,613
Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8186 Post(s)
Liked 9,098 Times
in
5,054 Posts
There's a fallacy in there--the quality of the workout is determined by the person, not the machine. One can put the exact same effort into riding the aero bike as one can the non-aero, the rider will just go faster. Likewise, there's nothing inherent about a non-aero bike that forces you to make a serious effort.
Basically, there's really no direct connection between the amount of resistance and the quality of the workout, the rider can dog it on the non-aero bike or the aero bike, or kill it on either.
Last edited by livedarklions; 07-25-22 at 09:08 AM.
Likes For livedarklions:
#866
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Wake Forest, NC
Posts: 5,768
Bikes: 1989 Cinelli Supercorsa
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3498 Post(s)
Liked 2,911 Times
in
1,766 Posts
There's a fallacy in there--the quality of the workout is determined by the person, not the machine. One can put the exact same effort into riding the aero bike as one can the non-aero, the rider will just go faster. Likewise, there's nothing inherent about a non-aero bike that forces you to make a serious effort.
Likes For smd4:
#867
Cheerfully low end
Join Date: Jun 2020
Posts: 1,971
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 644 Post(s)
Liked 1,044 Times
in
667 Posts
There's a fallacy in there--the quality of the workout is determined by the person, not the machine. One can put the exact same effort into riding the aero bike as one can the non-aero, the rider will just go faster. Likewise, there's nothing inherent about a non-aero bike that forces you to make a serious effort.
Otto
#868
Klaatu..Verata..Necktie?
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 17,913
Bikes: Litespeed Ultimate, Ultegra; Canyon Endurace, 105; Battaglin MAX, Chorus; Bianchi 928 Veloce; Ritchey Road Logic, Dura Ace; Cannondale R500 RX100; Schwinn Circuit, Sante; Lotus Supreme, Dura Ace
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10397 Post(s)
Liked 11,860 Times
in
6,072 Posts
Indeed, the basic argument is, as my Dad would have said, 'bass ackwards' - that people buy bikes to emulate the pros on which they are then TOO comfortable so they stop riding and get fat, when in fact if your average Joe buys an aero bike set up like the pros do - "FIip i! Slam it!" - they will be UNcomfortable and not ride.
__________________
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."
"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."
"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
Likes For genejockey:
#869
Tragically Ignorant
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 15,613
Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8186 Post(s)
Liked 9,098 Times
in
5,054 Posts
Actually, the literature shows that all key physiological performance parameters are compromised by extremely low torso angles. The only reason to make that sacrifice is for speed, since the aero benefit more than compensates, up to a point. So being able to ride in that position is necessary for racers, though it can be accomplished on properly fitted modern race bikes. OTOH, when riding very low, you actually reduce the ability to work your body to its maximum potential.
Otto
Otto
Different point, though. It's not being aero (less resistance) that's making the difference, it's that the position is actually increasing your internal resistance (so to speak) to proper inhalation, etc.
#870
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Wake Forest, NC
Posts: 5,768
Bikes: 1989 Cinelli Supercorsa
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3498 Post(s)
Liked 2,911 Times
in
1,766 Posts
Also, apparently Tim has never worked in a bike shop--because his descriptions of how sales staff interacts with, and works with customers to help them choose a bike, is in no way rooted in reality in any way whatsoever.
#871
Tragically Ignorant
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 15,613
Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8186 Post(s)
Liked 9,098 Times
in
5,054 Posts
Don't get me wrong, the connections he's drawing between posture and effort are total nonsense.
Likes For livedarklions:
#872
Tragically Ignorant
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 15,613
Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8186 Post(s)
Liked 9,098 Times
in
5,054 Posts
At its heart, his stuff is really an elaborate conspiracy theory--"big bike" is scheming to keep us on unhealthy bad bikes for reasons. Only his genius is able to see through the plot.
#873
Advanced Slacker
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 6,210
Bikes: Soma Fog Cutter, Surly Wednesday, Canfielld Tilt
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2761 Post(s)
Liked 2,534 Times
in
1,433 Posts
Your entire thesis comes from a misconception - it's not the head tubes being taller that leads to sloping top tubes. It's seat tubes being shorter. Head tubes are the same length, for the size of bike, that they always were. Indeed, the stack height on headsets is also less than it use to be in the days of threaded headsets, and stems also are generally lower rise. Saddle-to-bar drop on pro bikes is a lot more than it used to be BITD.
So, having started from a faulty premise, you've built an entire edifice on that mistake.
So, having started from a faulty premise, you've built an entire edifice on that mistake.
Other doozies include.....
2- His wacked-out premise that beginner riders are being turned off by being set up with road bike with riding position that are not aero enough.... when in fact the opposite has been true for a long time (new riders being turned off by riding positions TOO aero and uncomfortable for them) and that the move towards more relaxed endurance geo (and gravel bikes) has been a great benefit to new riders and increased access to the sport.
3- His premise that most people riding bikes on the road (including beginners) are myopically concerned with speed. Which begs the question of what he thinks the difference is between competitive and non-competitive (what this thread is about) riding.
4- Riding in an aero position somehow makes you more fit (as if speed is what burns calories, rather than effort).
Throw these 4 alternate universe realities into a pot and bake for an hour, and you come up with some of the most entertaining nonsense I have read on these forms in a while.
Likes For Kapusta:
#874
Full Member
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 425
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 167 Post(s)
Liked 291 Times
in
163 Posts
If Prof LooneyTunes was serious and not on a wind up, he would be posting his Strava (or similar app) times over several different length and gradient segments with his bike standard and modified to his liking and showing us the speed differences he has achieved and he would be seeking a proper peer review with relevant data from real-World experiences that can be independently verified.
But he won't, because 1. he can't really be as stupid as he is presenting unless he is a 'Flat-Earther', 'The End Is Nigh' or 'My Neighbour's Hachiko Was Kidnapped By LGBTQ Aliens From Venus' type and is just having a laugh and a wind up over his rice and Sake and, 2. he would be too embarrassed to show just how slow he actually is after all he has written.
I'll say one thing positive for him though, he is amusing.
#875
Friendship is Magic
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 22,984
Bikes: old ones
Mentioned: 304 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26394 Post(s)
Liked 10,367 Times
in
7,198 Posts
.
...page count on this thread is going up faster than Bitcoin in the boom.
...page count on this thread is going up faster than Bitcoin in the boom.
__________________