RChung

Almost every argument in cycling fora:
1. Only the pros need to worry about that. Are you a pro?
2. The best riders are the best because of what they do so just imitate them.
3. Things I don't care about, can't see, or can't measure aren't important.
4. Things I think are important are important, so you should care about them.
5. If I don't know how to do something, it's too complicated for anyone to know how to do.

I think your post falls under #3.

himespau 

A very important consideration when deciding whether or not to spend the extra cash on a lighter-weight bike is how often/when you'll have to carry it. Something a lot of people don't think about until it's too late and they're hauling it up multiple flights of stairs AGAIN because their building board doesn't let them repair bikes in the garage or transport bikes in the elevator (sorry, slightly bitter memories there).

Branko D

Sure, on the face of it, it makes sense.

However, suppose you are racing and want to finish on the podium, you need to do something other than follow the wheel in front, and if you are not in a hill climb race, aero will help a slight bit at the end ​​​​​even if survival to that position is harder.

Sure, for just surviving the race, lightweight might be slightly better, but if I'm just surviving (and that's me, at this point) then it doesn't matter that much. I'm an optimist and cling to hope of staying with the first group for the first fifteen minutes of every race 🤣
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​​​​​At the end of the day, an aero bike looks better (subjective, I know), is faster for my solo riding shenanigans which I'm fond of, and a bit under one kilogram of extra weight penalty means a bit less than 1% difference in climb speed and acceleration for an advantage on the gentle climbs, flats and downhills.

​​​​​​Tubulars create more rolling resistance than modern tubeless, offsetting any weight advantages, though.

beng1

No, I would not enjoy going faster on a bicycle because of an equipment upgrade, I will enjoy going faster by getting in better shape or improving riding position or technique though. Just as I enjoy being able to leave drivers of fast expensive automobiles far, far behind on twisty roads with my 130-horsepower Toyota Camry sedan because I am highly skilled at driving fast around sharp turns with all four wheels drifting a bit. And i feel sorry for those people too, who believed that buying that expensive fast car would make them the person depicted in the marketing for it. You have never heard, it is much more fun to drive a slow car fast, than to drive a fast car slow. Thank-you for your time and thoughtful reply to what I typed though.

Jack Tone 

Dam, you're good!!

AlgarveCycling

I sorta get where you are coming from and I'm not saying go out and spend a wad of cash on something that won't add anything to your fun factor - I actually commend you for racing the bikes you have; it shows a true dedication to cycling and proves you are enjoying it.

I agree with your view re cars.

I used to get more enjoyment from lower power engines too. I don't drive fast per se, I'm not a racing driver, it isn't my thing so I've never really spent time trying to learn how to track a car properly, I've just done a few weekends for fun with work colleagues some years ago. I had a small 170hp car. Awesome little car. I liked chucking it around corners etc.

Later, I 'upgraded' to the top-of-the-range version, all 340hp of it. While I liked it a lot, I never had the skill to drive it like I could drive the slower car and, as a result, I actually tracked it slower overall. I was faster in my 170hp! So, yeah, I get it. I missed my slower car. But, I still went through a phase of buying even more powerful cars that I couldn't drive fast because I didn't have the skill. Reason? I just liked how they looked, sounded, felt. It was an 'occasion' for me just to drive them, even slowly. I think the same is true for many who buy expensive bikes; they like how they look, feel etc. even if they don't or can't ride them fast. As long as we are all happy, it's all good

Mojo31

Like others, I have to wonder, why does what other people spend bother you so much?

Mojo31

LOL- drifting around corners is slow, and your Camry is not fast.

beng1

You and others are interpreting backwards. I could care less what others spend, I do care if they lose money by being taken advantage of or being duped. The science says that in most riding clipless pedals offer no advantage in power over flat pedals, but that is not what those marketing clipless pedals will tell you, or those who have fallen for that marketing will tell their peers.

For me it is fun to ride the bikes like I rode in the 1970s, and if it shows someone they have options other than mimicking pro riders in their choice of equipment, that is a bonus for them and society.

RChung

That falls under #4.

AlgarveCycling

I think we all exercise our right to choice. I still have my first MTB, for example. 22 years old. Do I ride it? Nope. I have a 2019 MTB that is a far nicer ride. That's the choice I have made. I believe most people will choose their bikes based upon the type of cycling they intend to do, how easy it is to ride and/or how fast it is.

Many of us recall the bikes we had in the past and so we can directly compare them with newer bikes. I loved my bikes in the 80's but would not like to ride them now for anything other than nostalgia - because I prefer the ride my newer bikes provide. It has nothing to do with copying anyone. It has nothing to do with marketing. It has everything to do with riding the bike I prefer to ride.

Just looking at your sentence I've highlighted in bold: yeah, clipless pedals alone won't give you any power advantage on lovely smooth, flat roads with no gradient and a steady pedalling motion. If that's your riding, yep, stick to flats.

One of the main advantages of clipless for me though, it is the ability to put down as much power as you have without your feet slipping off the pedal. When I was a kid, I used serrated flats on my BMX. 99% of the time, I could sprint with no probs but once in a while those nasty pedals cut my heel when my foot slipped. Plus it stopped my sprint. I do MTB racing now and run clipless on that because I like the foot security; I can transfer all my power and not have to worry about my foot coming off the pedal when I don't want it to. It's the same on my road bike, greater foot security.

Great for sprinting. Great for power-climbing where a good upstroke can help.

I can also control my bike with my feet more - hops n' such. Sure, I can do the technical stuff on flats too but it is easier with clipless.

But there is more: the shoes that are designed for clipless pedals with their ultra-stiff carbon soles don't see energy/watts dissipating nearly as much as soft soles. The Science has shown that stiff soles allow a greater transfer of energy. Stiff-soled shoes + clipless pedals = greater transfer of energy vs soft soles and flats. Naturally, if you use softer soles on clipless then you are getting less advantage from doing so from a power transfer perspective.

Pro's earn their livelihoods from cycling. They are very fussy about their equipment and some will use stuff they aren't supposed to and tape it up to hide branding if their own sponsors are unhappy with it. They use clipless because it is a more efficient delivery of their power and they save watts - energy. However, it isn't only Pro's who can have that benefit, anyone can. It works at all levels.

The only question is: are clipless and stiff soled-shoes worth it for your type of riding? For many, no. For many others, yes. We each make our choices. No marketing. No copying. Just what works best for us individually. You think people are being duped by companies selling expensive stuff but the vast majority really, really aren't. They have tried different things and bought what they prefer. Simple as that.

If some folks want to ride old bikes, that's up to them and great that they enjoy doing so.

Not all of us do though and you seem to not want to accept this fact. This isn't about someone buying a new bike, then riding an old one from the 70's/80's/90's and going "Dangnabbit! I can't tell the difference! Why'd I spend all that $$$ in a new bike?" No, that 'revelation' doesn't happen in the real World, only in the minds of some who want it to be true. What really happens is they realise how much nicer to ride their new bike is compared to what we had back in the old days.

Mojo31

You assume that someone is being taken advantage of or is being duped. Who are those people?

I can't imagine anyone who would consider spending $100 or $200 on a pair of peddles being so stupid that they cannot make an informed decision as to whether they should do so or not.

Under your argument, anyone who is not doing what you are doing is being duped. That kind of thinking just reeks of jealousy.

beng1

That is a nice belief-system you have there, but it has no basis in reality. Enjoy it though, as much as you enjoy your "free will" and your new equipment and empty wallet.

LarrySellerz

Great post, too many people completely dismiss the "bad/heavy bike = better workout" argument as complete nonsense

big john

You're really obsessed with money and how other people spend theirs. I don't think we've seen anything close to this in the 17 years I've been hanging around here.
What do you do with your money? Is it just for survival and nothing more? And "empty wallet"? Maybe you don't understand that there are many people for whom a new bike is a minor expense?

On an enthusiast's forum you can expect people to spend some of their disposable income on the thing they are enthusiastic about. People on bike forums buy stuff. Bikes, clothes, power meters, new wheels, etc. Apparently you hate that but you are not going to convince them they are wrong or wasting their money or that new bikes are no good.

Maybe your whole purpose here is just to troll. In that case, you got me. I fell for it and thought you were serious.

Branko D

"Empty wallet", imagine. Not all of us are poor. 😉

If you can't afford a modern bike without impoverishing yourself, by all means, ride what you have. There's nothing wrong with it. Preaching to people how their choices are wrong, they're wasting their money and that modernity sucks is just ridiculous, though.

Virtually everyone who has ridden with a power meter, or clipless pedals or a modern, light race bike wouldn't go back deliberately to the inferior option even though they work. A lighter bike will make you about 1% faster per kg, uphill. Not a huge difference, but the difference of a couple of kilos will be obvious on times up bigger climbs.

Once you get a power meter and then try to sprint in clipless and on flat pedals, your error of assuming clipless don't do anything for power will be immediately obvious with numbers in front of you (as it happens, I have a power meter both on my road bike with clipless and my gravel / commute bike with flat pedals).

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AlgarveCycling

I do enjoy it but...empty wallet? Far from it. I have zero debt. I own my home outright - in one of the World's most beautiful and sought-after beach-holiday locations. I'm pretty much retired, I spend my day's cycling and doing whatever I want...and my wallet is far from empty. It's pretty clear my disposable income - and that of many here - is somewhat different to yours and you come across as being bitter about that. It seems to many of us that it eats away at you, hence your envy on these forums.

But as I've explained to you before, you don't need to be jealous of others. Enjoy what you have and make the most of it.

My home is literally surrounded by houses worth multi-millions of $$. The folks who own them have yachts, Lamborghini's, Ferraris, Porsches etc. Mega-wealthy. The most expensive rental villa nearby is over $100k per week including special security for billionaires and celebrities. My neighbours bikes are top-of-the-range and he never rides them. But he's a lovely guy and earned his money - he can do as he pleases with it and I'm happy for him and I don't obsess about the wealth around me. Why can't you move past not being able to afford what others have? You are projecting and inventing reasons to justify to yourself that others are living beyond their means but that just isn't true. - just live and let live.

LarrySellerz

That being said, I wonder if things like chain skipping or pedal strikes can be more dangerous with clipless pedals. Ive talked to multiple people who have crashed when sprinting out of the saddle and had a chain skip, and ive had my foot fall off the pedal during a chain skip. Was happy that I wasn't attached to the bike. Beyond the obvious falling at stop signs, aren't there some safety disadvantages with clipless pedals, especially if one isn't used to them? Im afraid of them because im very used to crashing with flat pedals and due to a neck injury im really not allowed to crash for another year or so.

Jack Tone 

If you're comfortable crashing with flat pedals, then for sure, keep crashing on flat pedals.

AlgarveCycling

Clipless does seem daunting at first but it is an easily learned system.

Falling at stop signs is something someone should only be doing once before learning how to unclip quickly - it really isn't a thing generally. I've not had a problem with clipless in 30 years. I had the original Time clipless pedals decades ago and I've preferred the system ever since. There is obviously a learning curve to overcome vs flats but it's an easy one. Easier than learning to ride a bike. Cleats/pedals can be adjusted to make it easier during the leaning process.

I've had my share of crashes and not once was I attached to the bike at the end of it. Without even thinking about it my feet unclipped simply from the motion of the fall. I really don't see clipless as being dangerous - quite the opposite, in fact. Chain skipping will happen regardless of pedal system used since it is largely due to a rough, bouncy surface and/or worn stretched chain.

LarrySellerz

What I mean is that ive had my foot split off the pedal during a chain skip or pedal strike or something similar, and was happy that it wasn't attached to the bike and provide a sideways force

GBK233

Just upgraded last from a 2020 Giant Defy Advanced 2 to a 2020 Tarmac SL6 expert Di2. Saw improvement IMMEDIATELY. Average speed went up 2mph…and shaved 2-3min off my daily 15mile ride
I’m sure it wasn’t just weight. Aerodynamics I’m sure played a part.

Branko D

Chain dropping, which to me happens really rarely - either when shifting from big to small chainring under power trying to hold a wheel, or hitting a pothole at a lot of speed while the chain is slack or something - generally, nothing happens (in the first situation your foot falls down but it's easy to keep upright). If it dropped on a full out sprint that might be worse but otherwise, it's just an annoyance.

I did fall trying to learn how to ride them; practiced on the trainer so I wouldn't have to fall outside, on my parking lot unclipped right foot and tipped over my left side in a slow motion crash. Then I repeated this just before a race in front of about a hundred other cyclists. The only damage was to my ego 🤣

I crashed due to pedal strike once on flat pedals, never on clipless, so I couldn't tell the difference. I hit the deck so fast, anyway.

The only time I feel safer on flat pedals is offroad because I pretty much suck at it, but on the road I strongly prefer them. For commuting flats are just practical, though.

AlgarveCycling

You are describing a potential problem that is very rare - or should be - and not necessarily consequential.

I never experience what you are describing on my road bikes so the closest would be on my MTB over undulating, rocky terrain where the pedals and frame can hit something and the chain jumps a lot.

Chain skips, feet remain planted. Force is still applied as normal. No accident. Figure out instantly if there is an issue that requires a stop to fix.
Chain jumps off, unclip, get off, fix it.
Chain jumps off, causes an accident, feet unclip naturally and you aren't attached to the bike.

If you mean you are happy no force was applied after a chain skip because your foot was off the pedal, I'd not be overly concerned about that. Skipping doesn't mean an accident will happen regardless of continued pedal stroke. I've only ever had one accident caused by my chain coming off and that was the result of a stretched chain being bounced over very rough ground beyond normal and my standing in a sprint. If I had been seated, no accident would have happened. The pedal system had literally nothing to do with it nor would it have made any difference at all in terms of avoidance.

big john

Don't forget the placebo effect of a new bike!