vintagerando

This bike was literally left at my front door yesterday. I recently picked up a nice Trek Equinox (used) for my 13 yr old nephew. He had been give a bike by his neighbor recently, but since I gaven him a "modern" bike his father decided he did not need this "antique" bike.
The original owner said the bike is from Belgium. Here is a run down: TA Specialites cranks, Simple shifters. Maillard 700 hub on front, Stronglight headset, Weinmann brakes, Shimano Crane RD, Suntour RD, Bernard Hinault Seat, Belri Stem, and handlebars marked "BF", "made in France". Looks like a Franken bike of some sort, but likely French frame. Can anyone identify the frame? The seatpost has a serial number 229.
Thanks.

vintagerando

pic

non-fixie 

non-fixie 

Couple more questions: what drop-outs were used? Any chrome under the paint, especially on the head lugs?

juvela

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minus thread showing on BB lockring might suggest a spindle intended for 70mm shell in 68mm shell

BOCAMA lugset, Gargatte shell, forged ends

mismatched wheels: front hub looks like it might be Maillard 700 paired with Weinmann concave rim, rear wheel appears it may be Sanshin Matsumoto hub keeping company with a NISI Toro

definite Mary Schelley material here...

no guesses yet

where is that @MauriceMoss when one needs him?!

wonder if our @Filochard might recognise something here...

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vintagerando

Sorry, I was trying to type the post quick before I went out on a ride. (Yeah, great ride, perfect weather; 30 miles of bliss on my Waterford).
So, the info I got was from a 13yr, vague and mixed up: he said "the bike is from Belgium or France or something".
So, not much useful info. there.

vintagerando

Drop-outs possibly Huret, I believe; hard to make out because of the re-paint.

vintagerando

Here are additional photos of drop out and BB.

vintagerando

Down tube has two braze-on cable guides.

Cibi42

non-fixie 

Dropouts definitely Huret, which makes it more likely to be a French frame. Serial number points towards a small maker (or a shop which put its own serial number on an unmarked frame from a larger manufacturer - which was why I thought it might be Belgian, as that was fairly common there). Either way it makes identification more of a challenge.

And to muddy the waters a little more: Huret dropouts were popular with some British builders as well.

I like the frame though, whatever it turns out to be.

MiloFrance

Maybe ManuFrance build for a smaller (or not) brand?

juvela

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Thank you for the additional pictures and information vintagerando.

One thing not as yet posted is whether frame done to metric or to BSC standard.

Both are possible from a flanders origin, while BSC is not possible from La France at this epoch.

Bottom bracket fittings appear mixed. While chainset is T.A. lockring is not.

Have you discovered any spots which reveal original livery?

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vintagerando

How can I determine metric vs BSC? By checking headset?

I am not sure what you mean by "original livery". Can you add some further explaination? Thanks.

verktyg 

Nervex Feature Cut #7 fork crown.



Bocama Professional Medium Point Lugs with reinforcement rings.

Huret Dropout



Late 70's Gitane spear point seat stay caps.


The long fork rake and Nervex crown puts the fork into the early to mid 70's, same with the Bocama lugs. I've never seen Huret dropouts on a Belgian bike. Mainly French and a few early 70's Raleighs. The seat stay treatment suggests late 70's better quality Gitane but they wouldn't have used brazed on derailleur cable stops that late.

Measure the top tube. If it's under 26mm (25.4mm plus .1mm to .3mm for paint thickness) then it could have inch size tubes. Over 26mm, likely metric tubes. Inch size with British threads would suggest the UK??? Looks like a powder coat paint job so take that into consideration for your top tube measurement.

Also, loosen the headset lock nut and measure the steerer diameter: 25mm = metric and 25.4mm = inch or British threads. The fork could be a mismatch with the frame. The headset looks British to me but it could just be the locknut.

The blue paint with yellow bar tape was Gitane's team colors but the paint would have been metallic.

Summation: illégitime, bâtard... of questionable parentage.

Mssr. verktyg

MauriceMoss

Belgium was first mentioned as the country of origin and, looking at those long seat stay caps, at first glance I thought Novy.
Huret dropouts, though, kind of cast a doubt on that. I know they used Gipiemme, Zeus and Campagnolo dropouts but have never seen one with Huret dropouts. I mean, it's possible, but I guess it depends on the bottom bracket threading.

@vintagerando, do you know if the bottom bracket threading is British, French or... Swiss? (not sure if you've disassembled the bike yet)

MauriceMoss

I've been looking into some frame numbers from the low countries recently and noticed something that made me think of this thread.

Even though stamping the frame/serial number on the seat lug was done by marques in various countries (Germany, the Netherlands, Switzerland), most of the numbers I've come across were longer than 2 or 3 digits. I then noticed a trend on some Belgian frames (unfortunately there aren't a lot of good pictures of serial numbers available online).

My initial impression (looking at the long spear point seat stay caps) was a Belgian marque Novy, but I had not seen any serial numbers stamped on the seat lugs on their (contract or own label) frames.

I still think this is a Belgian frame, although now I'm leaning more towards it being a Bertin. You can find more info on the Belgian Bertins here: Part 1, part 2 and part 3. Kind of amazing they used powder coating way back when.

Here are some pics:







This one wore Libertas stickers but was clearly repainted (perhaps more than once):



It'd still be informative to get the bottom bracket threading.