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fearing the slow good bye to rim brake bikes

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fearing the slow good bye to rim brake bikes

Old 06-21-22, 08:16 AM
  #276  
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Originally Posted by bocobiking
Thinking about it a little, I don't think people are being bamboozled. Instead, I think there's a synergy between the marketers' need to push new things and the public's insatiable desire for something new. What comes after this synergy is a list new "scientific," "objective" reasons why the new thing is "better." So what drives what? It seems to me that all the rationales for a new product are created afterward to justify our thirst for a new toy. And the marketers are happy to help come up with these rationales.
So they're not being bamboozled, they're just thinking up questionable benefits to justify the purchase of the shiny new thing after the fact? Okay, got it.
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Old 06-21-22, 08:28 AM
  #277  
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Originally Posted by bocobiking
.
I don't want to argue with anyone's choice of products. I just think it's silly to invent objective reasons why, for example, electronic shifting is objectively better than downtube friction shifters. The reasons why one rider would choose the former are not important for another rider who chooses the latter.
Yes, inventing reasons why electronic shifting is better would be silly. Why? Because there are real reasons why electronic shifting is objectively better than down tube friction shifting.
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Old 06-21-22, 08:58 AM
  #278  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi
So they're not being bamboozled, they're just thinking up questionable benefits to justify the purchase of the shiny new thing after the fact? Okay, got it.
I believe you would have a valid point if they performed the same or worse than discs. But weight penalty aside, and having two disc and two rim bikes, I know that disc performance, especially in wet, is far superior. It’s a better mouse trap and consumers have voted with their feet. If they truly sucked or were equivalent to rim brakes, thoughtful people would probably walk away.
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Old 06-21-22, 09:24 AM
  #279  
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe
Because there are real reasons why electronic shifting is objectively better than down tube friction shifting.
Like the batteries you use that never die nor need to be replaced (at fairly considerable cost, as I understand it)? Or the 60 minute charging time? Great reasons!
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Old 06-21-22, 09:26 AM
  #280  
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Originally Posted by rsbob
I know that disc performance, especially in wet, is far superior.
That's why I don't ride in the rain. My brakes work great.
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Old 06-21-22, 09:31 AM
  #281  
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Originally Posted by Jeff Neese
I don't think it's "throwing around the term".
I disagree. It is “throwing around the term” because I have not seen anyone really describe what they mean by “superior modulation”. Is it easier to slow a little or slow a lot? I can do that with any brake I’ve ever used…except the supposedly “superior” hydraulics brakes I’ve used. Those offered no ability to attenuate the amount of pressure I put on the pads making for very grabby brakes.

You're an experienced cyclist and must certainly recognize that there are differences in modulation between different brakes, even two different brands or models of the same type.
Yes, I’ve a very experienced cyclist and I’m saying that there is very little difference in modulation between different brakes. I don’t get on a bike that is equipped with disc and use the brakes differently from a bike that has cantilevers. I have a bike that has a disc on the front and a linear brake on the back. There is no difference in lever feel nor lever pull between the front and back. There’s also no difference between that bike and two other hub mounted disc equipped bikes I own. There’s no difference between the cantilever equipped bikes and the hub mounted disc bikes. I don’t brake differently when riding one of my road bikes and my mountain bikes. Nor, for that matter, is there a noticeable difference between my road bike, disc equipped tandem and my mountain bike cantilever equipped tandem.They all feel and work the same.

What I do find funny about brake discussions is that the same arguments are made when each brake comes out. When cantilevers became prevalent in the 80s, they are touted as being vastly superior to side pulls. I’d even agree that they were vastly superior to the Weinmann center pulls that were poor Mafac Racer knockoffs. But the same was said about U-brakes when they were introduced. I never owned any U-brake equipped bikes because the brake placement was just stupid. The same was said about linear brakes when they were introduced. Hub mounted discs are just another iteration of the same argument.

I currently own bikes with disc, disc/rim, cantilever, and dual pivot. Not one of them is significantly better at braking that any other. They all work quite well and I have no issues throwing them down hills at stupid speeds. I don’t ride any of them differently because they have different brakes.

Sure, all brakes behave as you describe - I can pull on either a little or a lot and get the bike to slow a little or lock the rear wheel - but there's a vast difference in how brakes behave in between that range. I agree that the term "either on or off" is an exaggeration, but some brakes are definitely too grabby for me.
The only grabby brakes I’ve ever owned were early hydraulics. I’ve never had a brake that was vastly different in the way it worked from slow to emergency stop, except the hydraulics.
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Old 06-21-22, 09:31 AM
  #282  
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Originally Posted by smd4
That's why I don't ride in the rain. My brakes work great.
Which begs the question: Is there something about rainwater today that makes it significantly more slippery than it used to be 10, 20, or 30 years ago? We all used to ride with rim brakes in all kinds of weather back then, and we all lived to talk about it in this forum today.

Another question: Do any statistics exist as to how many cyclists died exactly because they had rim brakes? Would those deceased cyclists have survived if they had been running disk brakes instead of rim brakes?
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Old 06-21-22, 09:32 AM
  #283  
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Originally Posted by smd4
Like the batteries you use that never die nor need to be replaced (at fairly considerable cost, as I understand it)? Or the 60 minute charging time? Great reasons!
My batteries have never died.
I have never had to replace my batteries.
The 60 minute recharge time has never been an issue.
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Old 06-21-22, 10:08 AM
  #284  
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe
Yes, inventing reasons why electronic shifting is better would be silly. Why? Because there are real reasons why electronic shifting is objectively better than down tube friction shifting.
Objectively downtube friction shifters are much lighter and also simpler, so basically they are bomb proof. No need to charge batteries frequently wich would be a pain.
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Old 06-21-22, 10:11 AM
  #285  
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Originally Posted by Jv_247
Objectively downtube friction shifters are much lighter and also simpler, so basically they are bomb proof. No need to charge batteries frequently wich would be a pain.
And you could easily move them over to the handlebar - if you're so inclined.
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Old 06-21-22, 10:25 AM
  #286  
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Originally Posted by Jv_247
No need to charge batteries frequently wich would be a pain.
OMG, such a pain! Less than a minute to connect the charger, once every 1,000 miles. Imagine if you had to refill your water bottles that often.
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Old 06-21-22, 10:28 AM
  #287  
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Originally Posted by sjanzeir
Which begs the question: Is there something about rainwater today that makes it significantly more slippery than it used to be 10, 20, or 30 years ago? We all used to ride with rim brakes in all kinds of weather back then, and we all lived to talk about it in this forum today.

Another question: Do any statistics exist as to how many cyclists died exactly because they had rim brakes? Would those deceased cyclists have survived if they had been running disk brakes instead of rim brakes?
So that's the new standard for this debate, death statistics? Being an advocate for dated technology how do you think Pennyfarthing Bicycles faired using your criteria. For clarity what rim brakes are you determining to be the ultimate evolution of bicycle braking. Center-pull, cantilever, side pull single pivot, U-brake, side pull double pivot, direct mount, V-brake, Hydraulic.
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Old 06-21-22, 10:47 AM
  #288  
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Originally Posted by Atlas Shrugged
So that's the new standard for this debate, death statistics?
Yeah! Have you got any statistics as to how many cycling-related deaths were directly caused by the inadequacies - real or perceived - of rim brakes? Can you answer the question? I didn't think so.

Originally Posted by Atlas Shrugged
Being an advocate for dated technology how do you think Pennyfarthing Bicycles faired using your criteria.
No one mass-produces Pennyfarthings and no one buys them en masse because they were a fundamentally flawed concept that got superceded by the Safety Bicycle, when people were still figuring out this whole "two wheels" thing. My "criteria" is simply "pull lever, stop bike." The rim brake isn't outdated technology (at least not yet,) it's just old technology that still works for a lot of people. So if you want to signal intellectual superiority, the least you can do is provide some meaningful figures.
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Old 06-21-22, 10:51 AM
  #289  
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Originally Posted by sjanzeir
Yeah! Have you got any statistics as to how many cycling-related deaths were directly caused by the inadequacies - real or perceived - of rim brakes? Can you answer the question? I didn't think so.



No one mass-produces Pennyfarthings and no one buys them en masse because they were a fundamentally flawed concept that got superceded by the Safety Bicycle, when people were still figuring out this whole "two wheels" thing. My "criteria" is simply "pull lever, stop bike." The rim brake isn't outdated technology (at least not yet,) it's just old technology that still works for a lot of people. So if you want to signal intellectual superiority, the least you can do is provide some meaningful figures.
Actually, I was shooting for sarcastic smart-ass.
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Old 06-21-22, 10:56 AM
  #290  
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Originally Posted by rsbob
I believe you would have a valid point if ....
That wasn't my point. I was clarifying the other poster's point (which wasn't a very good point).
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Old 06-21-22, 11:00 AM
  #291  
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Originally Posted by Atlas Shrugged
Actually, I was shooting for sarcastic smart-ass.
You missed.
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Old 06-21-22, 11:14 AM
  #292  
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Anyone here ever go to a classic car show and lust after the vehicles on display? From 1920s Model T's to 50s or 60s Corvettes and Bel-Aires or T-Birds? All feature outdated technology! Lots have windows that have to be manually raised/lowered with a crank! They use these things called "carburetors." There aren't even cupholders! But for a discerning crowd they are quite compelling and breathtaking. Some of these cars are priceless.
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Old 06-21-22, 11:50 AM
  #293  
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Originally Posted by smd4
Anyone here ever go to a classic car show and lust after the vehicles on display? From 1920s Model T's to 50s or 60s Corvettes and Bel-Aires or T-Birds? All feature outdated technology! Lots have windows that have to be manually raised/lowered with a crank! They use these things called "carburetors." There aren't even cupholders! But for a discerning crowd they are quite compelling and breathtaking. Some of these cars are priceless.
I do that every day:



This has got all the technology I need. Synchronous double-barrel carburetor: check. Points ignition: check. Five-speed stick shift: check. Unassisted rack-and-pinion steering with enough feel and feedback to keep me entertained: check. Fuel economy from just 97 horsepower while easily accelerating to modern traffic speeds and maintaining 70mph all day long: check. No ABS, no traction control, no power windows, and no cup holders. But hey, the factory hang-on air conditioner (remember these?) still blows cold!
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Old 06-21-22, 12:18 PM
  #294  
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My buddies and I talk about how manual-transmission cars are basically theft-proof today.
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Old 06-21-22, 12:26 PM
  #295  
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Well the slow goodbye would definitely be better than the Irish goodbye.
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Old 06-21-22, 12:27 PM
  #296  
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Originally Posted by smd4
My buddies and I talk about how manual-transmission cars are basically theft-proof today.
My brother-in-law's 18-year-old kid hitched a ride with me and he was like, "how do you work that thing? What does it do? What's a clutch?"
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Old 06-21-22, 12:53 PM
  #297  
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Really drifting into "Why, when I were a lad, we had to walk 10 miles to school every day! Uphill both ways!" territory.
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Old 06-21-22, 01:47 PM
  #298  
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Originally Posted by sjanzeir
I do that every day:



This has got all the technology I need. Synchronous double-barrel carburetor: check. Points ignition: check. Five-speed stick shift: check. Unassisted rack-and-pinion steering with enough feel and feedback to keep me entertained: check. Fuel economy from just 97 horsepower while easily accelerating to modern traffic speeds and maintaining 70mph all day long: check. No ABS, no traction control, no power windows, and no cup holders. But hey, the factory hang-on air conditioner (remember these?) still blows cold!
A 504 with a 5 speed and AC? How decadent. But I love it. Would drive that as well.
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Old 06-21-22, 01:59 PM
  #299  
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Originally Posted by Harhir
A 504 with a 5 speed and AC? How decadent. But I love it. Would drive that as well.
Tres bourgeois, I know 😅 The AC is factory, but the five-speed is a 505 transplant. And the swap hadn't been nearly as straightforward as my mechanic and I had hoped, but we worked it out somehow.

With that being said, I cannot tell you how much fun this thing is to drive. The accurate and direct steering with great feedback, the overall neutral handling, the immediate throttle response (with just under 100 horsepower, mind you) are enough for me not to want to drive anything else.

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Old 06-21-22, 04:52 PM
  #300  
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Originally Posted by sjanzeir
The accurate and direct steering with great feedback, the overall neutral handling, the immediate throttle response (with just under 100 horsepower, mind you) are enough for me not to want to drive anything else.
With all due respect, this is a very low bar you are setting here.
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