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Velo Orange Quad crank: when will we see a "compact triple"?

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Velo Orange Quad crank: when will we see a "compact triple"?

Old 07-14-13, 10:21 AM
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Thanks much for that gear calculator link -- very nice.

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Old 07-14-13, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by cyccommute
They still make sense. The problem with compact doubles is the shift pattern. Using this gear calculator you can easily compare gearing combinations, like this one.



There are more intermediate gears with the triple without the huge jumps between the rings. You basically have 2 separate drivetrains with the doubles and getting from one drivetrain to the other isn't a smooth transition.

I find it funny that the main driver behind the 10 and 11 speed cassette is to have more gear choices on the cassette, yet the drive is to get rid of the front gears which reduces the gear choices.
We've discussed this before on the touring forum. Most folks riding a loaded touring bike aren't shifting with the next logical gear ratio in mind. They merely shift to the next smaller ring when they start cross chaining and accept that they will be spinning a bit as the bike slows down. The OP is talking about a touring setup.

In my view, being able to get a range of 95-17 gear inches using a double crankset married to a 9 or 10 speed cassette would be the best of all worlds. I'd ride in the big ring for almost all my riding going into the granny ring only when necessary. My touring bike is setup with a 46/36/24 crankset married to a 13-36 9 speed cassette. I only get into the 24 ring when the choice is pedal or get off and push. A 2X10 MTB setup would be ideal FOR ME and is probably the future for touring bike setups. Al
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Old 07-14-13, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by HillRider
The question is how slow can you go and still maintain adequate stability and steerage?
His answer was 0 mph.

Same here.
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Old 07-14-13, 11:23 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by Altbark
We've discussed this before on the touring forum. Most folks riding a loaded touring bike aren't shifting with the next logical gear ratio in mind. They merely shift to the next smaller ring when they start cross chaining and accept that they will be spinning a bit as the bike slows down. The OP is talking about a touring setup.

In my view, being able to get a range of 95-17 gear inches using a double crankset married to a 9 or 10 speed cassette would be the best of all worlds. I'd ride in the big ring for almost all my riding going into the granny ring only when necessary. My touring bike is setup with a 46/36/24 crankset married to a 13-36 9 speed cassette. I only get into the 24 ring when the choice is pedal or get off and push. A 2X10 MTB setup would be ideal FOR ME and is probably the future for touring bike setups. Al
You sound like a good candidate for keeping your triple crank and running a 12-27 cassette.
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Old 07-14-13, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by HillRider
Trackstands are something of a trick and certainly not what you want to have to do while climbing a steep hill. The question is how slow can you go and still maintain adequate stability and steerage?
Originally Posted by LesterOfPuppets
His answer was 0 mph.
Same here.
But a trackstand is different physics of balance than riding a bike forward. HillRider's point is that track-standing is a different skill than than maintaining balance while moving forward at 4mph. So just because you can track stand doesn't mean that you can comfortably pedal forward at 2mph, does it?
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Old 07-14-13, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by TallRider
But a trackstand is different physics of balance than riding a bike forward. HillRider's point is that track-standing is a different skill than than maintaining balance while moving forward at 4mph. So just because you can track stand doesn't mean that you can comfortably pedal forward at 2mph, does it?
No it doesn't. And you want a low enough gear to have a decent cadence if you need to go that slow a lot, say towing heavy trailers or just a heavy loaded tourer, for instance. It's much more difficult for me @ low rpm.

Same with riding no-handed. I like to have a nice cadence for it. It took me forever to learn how to go no-handed for a long distance.
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Old 07-14-13, 12:17 PM
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Tracks are banked ,, streets are crowned , you use the slope to resist the forward roll, with your pedal pressure.
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Old 07-14-13, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by TallRider
You sound like a good candidate for keeping your triple crank and running a 12-27 cassette.
I'm definitely keeping the triple for the time being. My Cannondale T1 is a truck. I pull a trailer with it. 95 GIs are more than enough top end and 17 GIs are the cat's whiskers when the going gets tough. I can't justify swapping out the triple crankset for a double. It would make for an interesting project though. I'd probably go with a 38/24 crankset and just swap out the 13 cog for the 12 I've got hanging around. Maybe that would make for an interesting winter project. Hmmmm.... Al
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Old 07-14-13, 01:38 PM
  #34  
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Wide range 10 speed cassettes shine the best when you run them with smaller cranks. I converted a 30-39-50 triple with a 12-27 cassette to a 34-46 double with an 11-32. Nearly all the wide MTB cassettes have an 11-tooth cog, which makes perfect sense when you take into account MTB chainring sizes. A 46x11 combo is a taller gear than the 50x12 I had before. Not many average joes are pushing a 50x11 (I do occasionally on my race bike, but that's it), and only very strong cyclists on race-ready bikes are ever pushing 52x11 (or taller!).

I never liked the 34-50 compact double. The wide gap made me avoid shifting the front because it was unpleasant. But the 10 speed 11-32 allowed me to duplicate the triple's range, tighten up my crankset to an appropriate jump between chainrings, and simplify the entire system.

Gearing I run:

Race bike: 36-50; custom built 11-27 cassette in back.
Cross/travel bike: 34-46; 11-32 cassette. (Would have gone 11-30, but couldn't find one)
Cross/utility/commuter: 30-39-50; 12-32 in back. That one is purpose built. The 50t ring is useful on the road, but when I race it in cross season I operate it like a 39t single chainring setup (I never shift the front) and the 12-32 range gives me the ability to stay on the 39t. Why keep the triple, you ask? So I can use it for other things, plus a bash-guard and chain-keeper is hardly different in weight than a chainring and front derailer.
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Old 07-15-13, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by HillRider
Trackstands are something of a trick and certainly not what you want to have to do while climbing a steep hill. The question is how slow can you go and still maintain adequate stability and steerage?
How slow can you go when you approach a stop? I don't know many people who drag their feet when the speed of their bike gets below 3 mph. On the other hand, I've spent many hours slogging up hills at 3 mph. It's not that hard.
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Old 07-15-13, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Altbark
We've discussed this before on the touring forum. Most folks riding a loaded touring bike aren't shifting with the next logical gear ratio in mind. They merely shift to the next smaller ring when they start cross chaining and accept that they will be spinning a bit as the bike slows down. The OP is talking about a touring setup.

In my view, being able to get a range of 95-17 gear inches using a double crankset married to a 9 or 10 speed cassette would be the best of all worlds. I'd ride in the big ring for almost all my riding going into the granny ring only when necessary. My touring bike is setup with a 46/36/24 crankset married to a 13-36 9 speed cassette. I only get into the 24 ring when the choice is pedal or get off and push. A 2X10 MTB setup would be ideal FOR ME and is probably the future for touring bike setups. Al
I'm having this discussion elsewhere at the same time. One of the combinations that the other poster came up with was a 44/22 with an 11-34 cassette. Essentially, you just remove the middle ring on a mountain bike crank. Using the Dirk Freeken's calculator (see the link above), you can compare the two systems in the attached



The problem with trying to use a double crank system to get the range you want...which is a large range...is that you end up with a linear gear pattern but have no ability to shift it. The smallest jump between the rings is the 44/34 to the 22/34 which is 14 gear inches. The largest jump is from the 44/11 to the 22/11 which is 55 gear inches. That's an enormous jump and the jump between the smaller cogs is only slightly less. It's not a friendly pattern.

You could shift the bike like 2 separate 9 speeds, going from first to the 9th cog in each chainring but what do you do when you hit the lowest gear in the large ring or the highest gear in the small ring? Make 9 shifts to keep up? At least the current compact road double are a bit more user friendly.

I agree that you don't shift with the next logical gear in mind but that's because you don't have to think too much about the gear pattern with a triple. With this extreme example, you'd have to really plan ahead. Most of the time, you can just shift down or up as needed and avoid any real funky combinations but with an extreme double like this one, you'd have to really think ahead to get any usefulness out of it. I can envision a ride downhill in the large chainring and then a transition to an uphill. You'd shift off the outer ring to the inner and suddenly find that you have to spin at 120 to 160 rpm to keep up with the speed. Making that kind of jump can often lead to chain derailment as well.
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Old 07-15-13, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by TallRider
But a trackstand is different physics of balance than riding a bike forward. HillRider's point is that track-standing is a different skill than than maintaining balance while moving forward at 4mph. So just because you can track stand doesn't mean that you can comfortably pedal forward at 2mph, does it?
As I said above, how slow do you go when you are coming to a stop? I, as well as most of the people I see, approach a stop at a pretty slow rate of speed. It's less than 3 mph and probably less than 1 mph.

If you are riding along and about to stop (>2mph) but the light turns green, do you fall over or do you just push on the pedals and keep riding? Have you ever ridden a bike next to some one who is walking? Did you fall over? Most little kids don't ride much faster than 2 mph and they keep upright as well. It just not that hard to ride at slow speeds.
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Old 07-15-13, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by fietsbob
Tracks are banked ,, streets are crowned , you use the slope to resist the forward roll, with your pedal pressure.
And the world ain't flat. The same principles for doing a trackstand apply to riding down the street. You use the pedal pressure to keep your bike upright even at very slow... or zero...speed.
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Old 07-15-13, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by cyccommute
As I said above, how slow do you go when you are coming to a stop? I, as well as most of the people I see, approach a stop at a pretty slow rate of speed. It's less than 3 mph and probably less than 1 mph.
If you are riding along and about to stop (>2mph) but the light turns green, do you fall over or do you just push on the pedals and keep riding? Have you ever ridden a bike next to some one who is walking? Did you fall over? Most little kids don't ride much faster than 2 mph and they keep upright as well. It just not that hard to ride at slow speeds.
Thanks - this is helpful for realizing that it is possible to ride very slow and still stay upright. I gave that too-short shrift before.

Originally Posted by cyccommute
And the world ain't flat. The same principles for doing a trackstand apply to riding down the street. You use the pedal pressure to keep your bike upright even at very slow... or zero...speed.
However, I will still contend that the physics of trackstanding are somewhat different than the physics of riding while moving forward. When moving forward, if you start to tilt to one side, you just steer toward that side to correct it. The slower you're going, the more you need to turn the wheel in order to correct for a given lean.
When you are going 0 mph, you can't countersteer anymore because the bike won't roll out of its lean (because it's not rolling). Though you're right that trackstanding is somewhat similar in terms of pedal pressure (and that the slower you're riding, I suspect more trackstand-physics come into play).
Does that make sense, or am I misunderstand what you're saying (or understanding what you're saying but still assuming something incorrect on my end)?

Also - and this is a complete side-note - there was never meaningful scientific disagreement over the earth being flat. This is a really common misconception. Even in Columbus' era it was agreed that the earth was round (and earlier; a popular medieval astronomy text was entitled 'Sphere'). The significant disagreement was over heliocentrism vs. geocentrism: does the earth go around the sun, or vice versa. (I've taught a college course on history of science and religion, and this issue is the centerpoint of the Galileo affair).
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Old 07-16-13, 05:08 AM
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To continue the OT, I seem to recall that knowledge of Earth's spherical nature stretches back at least a couple of millennia.

It's the sort of thing you don't really have to stand on the shoulders of giants to figure out; you just need to be a smart cookie.

Pretty sure someone proved it sometime BC... here we go.

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Old 07-16-13, 05:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Barrettscv
It's not hard to attain a huge range with a 110 bcd MTB triple and a 11-32 rear cassette. This bike has a 48, 36 & 22t chainrings and a nine-speed 11-32 cassette;
Sounds like a good mix. On my triple (50-39-30) I only ever use the granny ring when climbing and often find I'd like a smaller ring. Because I only use it for climbing it's not a problem if there's a big gap between the middle and small ring, as long as the FD can handle the gap reliably. If I could have something like 50-39-22 that would be great, I'd keep the gearing I like for regular riding and have a bailout gear for the more punishing hills.

Then when I'm not so fat I can swap it for a larger ring.
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Old 07-16-13, 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted by TallRider
However, I will still contend that the physics of trackstanding are somewhat different than the physics of riding while moving forward. When moving forward, if you start to tilt to one side, you just steer toward that side to correct it. The slower you're going, the more you need to turn the wheel in order to correct for a given lean.
When you are going 0 mph, you can't countersteer anymore because the bike won't roll out of its lean (because it's not rolling). Though you're right that trackstanding is somewhat similar in terms of pedal pressure (and that the slower you're riding, I suspect more trackstand-physics come into play).
Does that make sense, or am I misunderstand what you're saying (or understanding what you're saying but still assuming something incorrect on my end)?
The physics isn't any different. When you have zero speed, you still countersteer to keep from falling over. If anything the countersteer is even more pronounced. You also use every day objects like the crown of the road, a slight uphill, road imperfections, even the bike's own brakes, etc. to steer against. Slow speed pedaling uses the same objects to countersteer the bike.

When I do a trackstand at a light, I don't transition from one physics principle to another. It's a smooth continuum from 10 mph to zero to 10 mph.

Originally Posted by TallRider
Also - and this is a complete side-note - there was never meaningful scientific disagreement over the earth being flat. This is a really common misconception. Even in Columbus' era it was agreed that the earth was round (and earlier; a popular medieval astronomy text was entitled 'Sphere'). The significant disagreement was over heliocentrism vs. geocentrism: does the earth go around the sun, or vice versa. (I've taught a college course on history of science and religion, and this issue is the centerpoint of the Galileo affair).
The problem in Columbus' era was a dispute about the distance more than if the Earth was flat or not. Columbus thought the Earth was smaller than it is which is why he called the New World "India". If North and South America hadn't been in the way, he would have sailed "off the edge of the world" by disappearing.

Erathosthenes calculated the circumference of the Earth with a fair degree of accuracy around 200 BC.
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Old 07-16-13, 07:23 AM
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Originally Posted by cyccommute
The physics isn't any different. When you have zero speed, you still countersteer to keep from falling over. If anything the countersteer is even more pronounced. You also use every day objects like the crown of the road, a slight uphill, road imperfections, even the bike's own brakes, etc. to steer against. Slow speed pedaling uses the same objects to countersteer the bike.
When I do a trackstand at a light, I don't transition from one physics principle to another. It's a smooth continuum from 10 mph to zero to 10 mph.
I'll take your word for it that there is no change in the physics of staying upright when you reach zero mph. But I'm still having trouble with it conceptually. How do you think about countersteering having its effect when the wheel isn't rolling? Or is there a small amount of rolling that allows it to work?

Originally Posted by cyccommute
The problem in Columbus' era was a dispute about the distance more than if the Earth was flat or not. Columbus thought the Earth was smaller than it is which is why he called the New World "India". If North and South America hadn't been in the way, he would have sailed "off the edge of the world" by disappearing.
Erathosthenes calculated the circumference of the Earth with a fair degree of accuracy around 200 BC.
Sorry to jump on your "the world ain't flat" comment. Obviously you meant something else, but I hear about "everyone used to think the word was flat" enough for it to be a big pet peeve. You obviously know your stuff. Columbus was lucky there was a continent in between Europe and India so he didn't run out of provisions.
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Old 07-16-13, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by TallRider
Or is there a small amount of rolling that allows it to work?
Bingo! Trackstands are pretty easy on a fixed gear because you can move the bike back and forth with the pedals. But on a freewheel bike, you have to use the little imperfections of the world to move the bike back and forth a little. If you watch the guy in this video


You can see how he uses the road crown to rock the bike back and forth like you could on a fixed gear. At about 1:06 in the video, you can see him roll up to the stand at a very slow speed and then turn the tire into the crown. He also bobbles at one point and has to throw the front wheel from one side to the other and back. He's trying to find the point where the tire is gripping something to get the traction for the counter steer.
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Old 07-16-13, 02:37 PM
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But its thoroughly off topic for something about a 4 chainring Crankset for climbing steep hills /

maybe you need to start a 'see how I can do track stands' topic.

thats a pretty zero slope climb..


in question : starting on a 1 in 4 slope and staying upright when the momentum goes away,
before you can get the 2nd foot clipped in.

In practice when come to a stop on a hill , to restart, I turn back down the other way,
going down, then turn around and give it another go..
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Old 07-16-13, 02:42 PM
  #46  
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the idea that the compact double has somehow eliminated the need for triples
is false
compact doubles are great for recreational riding
or commuting
or touring in flat terrain
but there is a loss of range
on one side or the other
that many people really do need


triples will remain
i am sure
the standard configuration
for touring and utility bikes with derailleurs
for some time

i am sure it is possible
with some thinking
to make a useable quad or quint or...
...10 or 11 ring crank
to use with the 11 cog cassette
but at some point after three rings
the advantage runs out
and a decent shifting pattern would be too complicated
for anyone not posessed
by the ghost of sheldon brown
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Old 07-17-13, 06:51 AM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by fietsbob
But its thoroughly off topic for something about a 4 chainring Crankset for climbing steep hills /

maybe you need to start a 'see how I can do track stands' topic.

thats a pretty zero slope climb..
Not really. A trackstand is just a zero velocity balancing act. Riding uphill at low velocities is just a trackstand with some forward momentum. Neither is impossible, nor that hard, to do.

Originally Posted by fietsbob
in question : starting on a 1 in 4 slope and staying upright when the momentum goes away,
before you can get the 2nd foot clipped in.

In practice when come to a stop on a hill , to restart, I turn back down the other way,
going down, then turn around and give it another go..
I start (and stop) on hills all the time when mountain biking. Starting on an uphill isn't hard and I certainly don't have enough room on a single track to start by going downhill first, then turning around. And I'm dealing with a loose surface that you don't usually find on a paved road. On a paved surface, it's not even something that I have to think that much about to do.

It's not that difficult. You hold the front brake, put your dominate pedal in the 10 o'clock position, push down with that foot at the same time as you release the brake and don't worry about getting the other foot clipped in until you get some forward momentum. It's a lot easier now with 2 sided clipless pedals but even in the bad old days of toe clips, you could flip the pedal up and get your foot into the clip once you have some forward momentum. It helps a little if you spin the crank a little faster to get a little more momentum going. On a loose surface, you might want to remain in the saddle to keep weight over the rear wheel to keep it from slipping but you don't need to do that on pavement.
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Old 07-17-13, 08:30 AM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by fietsbob


mountain bike stuff ..44t 32t 22t most common..
What he said^^^. I have a 26-36-46 on my touring bike with a 9sp. 30-12 cassette. Works for me. Could get a cassette with 32,34 or 36 if I needed more low range.
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Old 07-17-13, 08:50 AM
  #49  
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What ever , .. done it on a bike with a gear ratio that it takes 3 turns of the cranks to rotate the rear wheel once..?
on a steep , hard to walk up slope ?



I expect Original Post is just a Picture, a conversation Piece stunt, , as I said.

Crank arm, built in spacer for 3rd ring +
a Spacer and a second , too close in tooth count to have any meaning at all ,
chainring bolted up ..

With a MTB FD that would not shift between the 2 Bigger Chainrings, either.

Last edited by fietsbob; 07-17-13 at 11:57 AM.
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Old 07-17-13, 11:49 AM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by fietsbob
What ever, done it on a bike with a gear ratio that it takes 3 turns of the cranks to rotate the rear wheel once..?
on a steep , hard to walk up slope ?
yeah, there's definitely a point of diminishing marginal returns where you may as well walk. Somewhere around 2.5 mph at 50rpm. For 700c 28mm tires, that would be a 1:1.5 gear ratio, say with a 24x36 low gear (which is fairly normal for touring bikes)
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