upright gravelish steel bike rec?
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upright gravelish steel bike rec?
Looking for advice on purchasing a bike (not sure if there is a preferred format for this or if this is wrong location?)
Looking for:
-Upright gravel/all-road/adventure bike.
- I'm 5'11, 165 lbs, aiming for Stack 632, Reach 383, happy to buy a different stem to make this work.
-max stand-over ~850mm
-Steel frame
-Mostly riding paved but would like option to hit gravel.
-mostly commuting & running errands & adventuring want to go back to not having a car! 2-25miles daily. no racing. possibility for light-touring would be nice.
-Prefer not to have any electronic shifters or other overly techie parts.
-Prefer to keep under $3K but really I don't have an upper end budget but I don't want a bike that I overly worry about getting stolen or scratched up.
-Would like something I can find/purchase now or in next few months as my current bike is terrible for me and the weather is getting nice!
Background: I've been cycling exclusively on a fixed road bike (wabi special) for last 8 years. Last year I moved to PNW and now my knees are hurting cuz I have patellar tendonitis and there are hills here. I was all set on a Salsa Vaya 59.5cm but haven't found one in 2 months & LBSs say "possibly in June?" to "unlikely this year", now I'm despairing / open to other options/ideas. A trusted friend in the industry says Salsa Vaya is awesome, wait for it, Random people on the internet say Vaya is outdated and overrated now and there are better options these days...
Test road a salsa Fargo, felt too slow and overkill for mostly pavement. Test road a kona rove and it felt clunky/meh. Test road an all-city straight bar bike and hated the handlebars and it felt meh. I'm thinking of riding mostly 35mm ish tires but am not opposed to owning two wheelsets for different terrain types.
There's a 2016 Salsa Vaya x9 in 57cm 125miles away from me on craigslist for 1200. I could maybe make this work with a long, angled stem? Seems pricey for a compromise esp considering the 125miles to check it out.
Looking for:
-Upright gravel/all-road/adventure bike.
- I'm 5'11, 165 lbs, aiming for Stack 632, Reach 383, happy to buy a different stem to make this work.
-max stand-over ~850mm
-Steel frame
-Mostly riding paved but would like option to hit gravel.
-mostly commuting & running errands & adventuring want to go back to not having a car! 2-25miles daily. no racing. possibility for light-touring would be nice.
-Prefer not to have any electronic shifters or other overly techie parts.
-Prefer to keep under $3K but really I don't have an upper end budget but I don't want a bike that I overly worry about getting stolen or scratched up.
-Would like something I can find/purchase now or in next few months as my current bike is terrible for me and the weather is getting nice!
Background: I've been cycling exclusively on a fixed road bike (wabi special) for last 8 years. Last year I moved to PNW and now my knees are hurting cuz I have patellar tendonitis and there are hills here. I was all set on a Salsa Vaya 59.5cm but haven't found one in 2 months & LBSs say "possibly in June?" to "unlikely this year", now I'm despairing / open to other options/ideas. A trusted friend in the industry says Salsa Vaya is awesome, wait for it, Random people on the internet say Vaya is outdated and overrated now and there are better options these days...
Test road a salsa Fargo, felt too slow and overkill for mostly pavement. Test road a kona rove and it felt clunky/meh. Test road an all-city straight bar bike and hated the handlebars and it felt meh. I'm thinking of riding mostly 35mm ish tires but am not opposed to owning two wheelsets for different terrain types.
There's a 2016 Salsa Vaya x9 in 57cm 125miles away from me on craigslist for 1200. I could maybe make this work with a long, angled stem? Seems pricey for a compromise esp considering the 125miles to check it out.
Last edited by wbusby1; 05-21-22 at 03:15 PM.
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That seems like a tall stack for the reach. Anyway, take a look at a Jamis Renegade S3 or S4. The 58cm size has a 630 stack and a 828 standover, although the reach is 396. They're both reasonably priced steel gravel bikes.
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As in that seems more upright than usual? Or it seems like a problem? I'm sorry I don't full understand stack/reach ratio.
The Renegade looks good, unfortunately the LBS who carry are all out of stock but it does give me another thing to keep my eyes out for.
The Renegade looks good, unfortunately the LBS who carry are all out of stock but it does give me another thing to keep my eyes out for.
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How did you arrive at your desired stack and reach numbers?
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632 x 383 is a combination that will be difficult to find. Frames with that kind of stack are typically in the 60cm+ sizes, but the reach is more in line with those in the mid-upper-50s. Look at some geo charts and read up on the relationship between stack & reach.
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I went to a local bike fitter who's been in the business for 35yrs and I trust, without knowing much myself. bicyclefittingservices DOTcom/ (can't post links yet)
I think he is recommending the upright position because of my vargus knees and patellar tendonitis.
I think he is recommending the upright position because of my vargus knees and patellar tendonitis.
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Recently I procured a steel Salsa La Cruz (10 or so years old); this might be something to look for. This bike accepts caliper or disc brakes and tires to 1.75".
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Are you open to building yourself or buying a fork with an uncut steerer? You can add some spacers -- for example, 56cm Kona Rove (https://konaworld.com/rove_dl.cfm) has stack 607 and reach 392. The head tube angle is 71.5 degrees, tan(71.5)=3. If you add spacers to increase stack to 632, the reach will decrease by (632-607)/3=8. The reach will be 392-8=384mm -- more or less what you want.
I think this is what Rolla means.
I think this is what Rolla means.
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Are you certain your issues with your knee aren't because you rode something that wasn't set up properly for you and now you are going to even more whacky geometry based on your misconceptions of what is correct for you?
If you went to a decent fitter, they should know what models to recommend. You shouldn't limit yourself to just steel. Though it is seeing a small resurgence in new bikes.
Welcome to BF.
If you went to a decent fitter, they should know what models to recommend. You shouldn't limit yourself to just steel. Though it is seeing a small resurgence in new bikes.
Welcome to BF.
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Are you open to building yourself or buying a fork with an uncut steerer? You can add some spacers
I think this is what Rolla means.
I think this is what Rolla means.
Last edited by Rolla; 05-22-22 at 01:49 PM.
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Are you certain your issues with your knee aren't because you rode something that wasn't set up properly for you and now you are going to even more whacky geometry based on your misconceptions of what is correct for you?
If you went to a decent fitter, they should know what models to recommend. You shouldn't limit yourself to just steel. Though it is seeing a small resurgence in new bikes.
Welcome to BF.
If you went to a decent fitter, they should know what models to recommend. You shouldn't limit yourself to just steel. Though it is seeing a small resurgence in new bikes.
Welcome to BF.
Are you open to building yourself or buying a fork with an uncut steerer? You can add some spacers -- for example, 56cm Kona Rove ) has stack 607 and reach 392. The head tube angle is 71.5 degrees, tan(71.5)=3. If you add spacers to increase stack to 632, the reach will decrease by (632-607)/3=8. The reach will be 392-8=384mm -- more or less what you want.
Is it a consensus here that this more upright position I'm looking for is too "whacky"? I thought it was basically the ratio of the stock fargo build and not far off from the vaya
Last edited by wbusby1; 05-22-22 at 02:31 PM.
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thank you for this. do you know how this basic concept relates to frames that have/require integrated stem/steerer components that place the minimum possible bottom of the stem well above the apparent “top” of the head tube / top tube intersection, e.g. a head tube shock. is it correct to say that the stack is measured to the lowest possible point the bottom of the stem could be placed?
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As someone who also has a high stack to reach ratio (though not as extreme as you), I learned to embrace headset spacers.
As you increase the effective stack with spacers, you also shorten the reach.
I did find it a little frustrating that most of the more upright bikes were touring bikes and that is not what I wanted.
I ended up on a Salsa Casseroll and then later a Soma Fog Cutter. Still needed a healthy dose of spacers.
As you increase the effective stack with spacers, you also shorten the reach.
I did find it a little frustrating that most of the more upright bikes were touring bikes and that is not what I wanted.
I ended up on a Salsa Casseroll and then later a Soma Fog Cutter. Still needed a healthy dose of spacers.
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If you have to strain and use muscle to pedal your bike, then at some point in your life you will have knee pains that are more than just brief pains. Which apparently yours is more than just brief pain.
Last edited by Iride01; 05-22-22 at 03:17 PM.
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thank you for this. do you know how this basic concept relates to frames that have/require integrated stem/steerer components that place the minimum possible bottom of the stem well above the apparent “top” of the head tube / top tube intersection, e.g. a head tube shock. is it correct to say that the stack is measured to the lowest possible point the bottom of the stem could be placed?
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BTW, there's an entire sub-forum here dedicated to this topic: https://www.bikeforums.net/fitting-your-bike/
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No, I’m actually curious. i was trying to accurately model the geometry of a few bikes in comparison to one of mine which has a head shock, and could not figure out an accurate correspondence between the published dimension and the measurements of the bike. visual bike geometry comparison tools don’t seem to correspond with the visual characteristics either, i.e. the intersection of the top tube and head tube seems off in one direction or another.
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No, I’m actually curious. i was trying to accurately model the geometry of a few bikes in comparison to one of mine which has a head shock, and could not figure out an accurate correspondence between the published dimension and the measurements of the bike. visual bike geometry comparison tools don’t seem to correspond with the visual characteristics either, i.e. the intersection of the top tube and head tube seems off in one direction or another.
Some bike manufacturers are getting a little better at that.
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Have a look at Black Mountain Cycles. Several all-road/gravel options. They’re sold as framesets, but the owner will build one up for you. Reasonable prices too. I’m very happy with mine.
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I'm happy with mine as well, but unfortunately, Mike has had to cut back on the models he offers. Gone is the MCD, which had a really tall stack height, as well as the Road Plus. He combined those two frames into the Mod Zero, but production doesn't start until next year. So at the moment, all you can get is a Monster Cross Canti, whose stack is a pretty "normal" 609mm with a 388mm reach reach for a 58cm frame.
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#22
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Which All-City did you try? I have a Space Horse and love it, specifically made to be kind of an "all around" bike. I commute on it, done longer touring, do a lot of rail trail/gravel rides and even quite a bit of single track and it's been great.
Also maybe check out the State Bicycles. They tend to be decent "starter" bikes but haven't heard much bad about them. Definitely priced on the lower end.
Also maybe check out the State Bicycles. They tend to be decent "starter" bikes but haven't heard much bad about them. Definitely priced on the lower end.
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Salsa Vaya steel
https://www.salsacycles.com/bikes/2021_vaya_grx_600
628mm stack and 372mm reach in the 57cm size
647mm stack and 384.8mm reach in the 59.5cm size
Kona Libre aluminum
https://www.salsacycles.com/bikes/2021_vaya_grx_600
630mm stack and 389mm reach in the 56cm size.
Maybe look into these? All my bikes are steel so if anyone gets the appeal its me, but when you have such unique geometry needs, arbitrarily limiting yourself to just steel for a material is shortsighted.
https://www.salsacycles.com/bikes/2021_vaya_grx_600
628mm stack and 372mm reach in the 57cm size
647mm stack and 384.8mm reach in the 59.5cm size
Kona Libre aluminum
https://www.salsacycles.com/bikes/2021_vaya_grx_600
630mm stack and 389mm reach in the 56cm size.
Maybe look into these? All my bikes are steel so if anyone gets the appeal its me, but when you have such unique geometry needs, arbitrarily limiting yourself to just steel for a material is shortsighted.
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Perhaps the fitter thought your hip angle was too closed with the previous bike, and the more upright fit is an attempt to open it up. Hope your knees are feeling better ASAP!
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Then I do not understand what you mean by relationship between stack and reach:
Of course there are more subtle things like weight distribution, chainstay length, head tube angle, fork rake etc.
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/headsets.html
I did a computation for you in post #8 showing how you can achieve what you need using Kona Rove as an example. It has a chromoly fork with a chromoly steerer, adding spacers to it will not be a problem (may be problematic for carbon steerers).
Of course what matters is the distance from the bottom bracket to the contact points, and the frame with the prescribed stack and reach should be combined with the prescribed stem/handlebars/levers (or similar), otherwise the fit will be thrown off.