Info regarding early 80s KHS Professional
11-17-22, 03:38 PM
#1
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Info regarding early 80s KHS Professional
Greetings everyone!
New member here (this is my second post), so I can't post any pictures yet, unfortunately. Nevertheless, I was hoping to reach out to the C&V community regarding a frameset that I recently acquired that has proven to be a bit of a mystery!
The frameset in question is a KHS Professional constructed with Reynolds 531, Suntour Superbe dropouts, (what least appear to be) Cinelli lugs throughout and a chromed Cinelli MR fork crown with tanges running down the inside of the fork blades. The paint is reminiscent of a Mk.III Raleigh Competition, with grey paneling on the ST and HT and an albeit darker shade than Raleigh's "mink blue". The level of craftsmanship and finishing on the frameset itself is shockingly nice IMHO - the crispness of the brazing, lugwork and paint masking is all fantastic. Much better, at least, than the Worksop-constructed 1984 Raleigh Gran Course that it is replacing. The old saw about Raleigh builders having one too many pints on their lunch break rings true - this goes doubly for the Capella-lugged 1973 Competition I have hanging in my closet. The KHS strikes me as a kind of clone or mix between a Raleigh Professional (paint and Reynolds 531 tubeset) and Masi Gran Criterium (scalloped seatstay points, Cinelli lugs and fork crown) but with Suntour Superbe dropouts front and rear. It's like a kind of amalgamation of late 60s/early 70s aesthetics but with more modern 80s details like recessed brake nuts, integrated BB cable guide and braze-on DT shifter studs. Also has interesting geometry, with a short TT (56cm) relative to the tall ST (62cm c-c) and a fairly short wheelbase. Needless to say, I'm excited to get it built up and to ride it this weekend!
There's not a whole lot of definitive information about the earlier history of KHS either here or elsewhere on the web. I have found threads discussing their mid-to-late 80's products, as well as the better-known True Temper funny bikes from the 90s, but nothing about this particular frame. Based on a post from a Taiwanese collector that I found, it would seem that this frameset can tentatively be dated to ca. 1982. At least according to Google translate, this same collector speculated that the frameset was fabricated under contract in Japan, which I have not been able to corroborate.
Any info regarding either the KHS Professional model picture here or about KHS as a company prior to, say, 1985 would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks in advance for any info provided!
New member here (this is my second post), so I can't post any pictures yet, unfortunately. Nevertheless, I was hoping to reach out to the C&V community regarding a frameset that I recently acquired that has proven to be a bit of a mystery!
The frameset in question is a KHS Professional constructed with Reynolds 531, Suntour Superbe dropouts, (what least appear to be) Cinelli lugs throughout and a chromed Cinelli MR fork crown with tanges running down the inside of the fork blades. The paint is reminiscent of a Mk.III Raleigh Competition, with grey paneling on the ST and HT and an albeit darker shade than Raleigh's "mink blue". The level of craftsmanship and finishing on the frameset itself is shockingly nice IMHO - the crispness of the brazing, lugwork and paint masking is all fantastic. Much better, at least, than the Worksop-constructed 1984 Raleigh Gran Course that it is replacing. The old saw about Raleigh builders having one too many pints on their lunch break rings true - this goes doubly for the Capella-lugged 1973 Competition I have hanging in my closet. The KHS strikes me as a kind of clone or mix between a Raleigh Professional (paint and Reynolds 531 tubeset) and Masi Gran Criterium (scalloped seatstay points, Cinelli lugs and fork crown) but with Suntour Superbe dropouts front and rear. It's like a kind of amalgamation of late 60s/early 70s aesthetics but with more modern 80s details like recessed brake nuts, integrated BB cable guide and braze-on DT shifter studs. Also has interesting geometry, with a short TT (56cm) relative to the tall ST (62cm c-c) and a fairly short wheelbase. Needless to say, I'm excited to get it built up and to ride it this weekend!
There's not a whole lot of definitive information about the earlier history of KHS either here or elsewhere on the web. I have found threads discussing their mid-to-late 80's products, as well as the better-known True Temper funny bikes from the 90s, but nothing about this particular frame. Based on a post from a Taiwanese collector that I found, it would seem that this frameset can tentatively be dated to ca. 1982. At least according to Google translate, this same collector speculated that the frameset was fabricated under contract in Japan, which I have not been able to corroborate.
Any info regarding either the KHS Professional model picture here or about KHS as a company prior to, say, 1985 would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks in advance for any info provided!
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11-17-22, 03:48 PM
#2
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I don't really know anything about the company, but I found another example on the interwebs to look at some photos. That's a very nice bike -- early 80's Japanese bikes are among my favorites.
??.**********? : KHS Professional 1982 ~ Completed
EDIT: Sorry for the weird looking link, but the site is in Chinese, so some of the characters don't appear correctly, but the link works fine.
??.**********? : KHS Professional 1982 ~ Completed
EDIT: Sorry for the weird looking link, but the site is in Chinese, so some of the characters don't appear correctly, but the link works fine.
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11-17-22, 04:56 PM
#3
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Hey Noob,
Thanks for the help here - that's the Taiwanese (I believe) collector I mentioned in my post. But yes! that's the same frameset that I have, albeit in a much larger size. I'm curious if KHS was already selling a lot of bikes in the USA at this time. Most of the info for the early 80s I was able to find pertaining to KHS was for BMX/dirt bikes.
If you go to that link, you can see that KHS Pros of this vintage came spec'd with Suntour Superbe (backed up by a random page from a KHS catalog that I found) and clearly has Italianate influences. I'd love to know more about the production history of these frames, as they seem a cut above the other Asian-market products of the era (Nishiki, Lotus, Miyata, Panasonic, Fuji, etc) that I've personally come across. Not to poopoo any Taiwanese builders active at that time (KHS, like Giant, is a Taiwanese conglomerate) but I wonder if these were indeed manufactured in Japan - and, if so, by whom. Definitely seems there is even a dearth of information on the web about Japanese frameshops, especially compared to all the info about Italian contract builders (like Mondonico, Masi, etc).
Thanks for the help here - that's the Taiwanese (I believe) collector I mentioned in my post. But yes! that's the same frameset that I have, albeit in a much larger size. I'm curious if KHS was already selling a lot of bikes in the USA at this time. Most of the info for the early 80s I was able to find pertaining to KHS was for BMX/dirt bikes.
If you go to that link, you can see that KHS Pros of this vintage came spec'd with Suntour Superbe (backed up by a random page from a KHS catalog that I found) and clearly has Italianate influences. I'd love to know more about the production history of these frames, as they seem a cut above the other Asian-market products of the era (Nishiki, Lotus, Miyata, Panasonic, Fuji, etc) that I've personally come across. Not to poopoo any Taiwanese builders active at that time (KHS, like Giant, is a Taiwanese conglomerate) but I wonder if these were indeed manufactured in Japan - and, if so, by whom. Definitely seems there is even a dearth of information on the web about Japanese frameshops, especially compared to all the info about Italian contract builders (like Mondonico, Masi, etc).
Last edited by heidelbergensis; 11-17-22 at 04:59 PM.
11-17-22, 05:30 PM
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KHS (Kung Hsue She) was established in 1953 by Chin Chunh Hsieh to provide school supplies, including sporting goods, to Taiwan schools, In the early 1970s they diversified into bicycles. Their initial bicycles had a poor reputation for quality but by the mid-1970s they were arguably on par with those being manufactured by reputable Japanese companies. They were the first Taiwanese company to use Reynolds tubing, in 1979. In the mid-1980s, they produced triathlon and racing models endorsed by John Howard, multiple time national cycling champion, Ironman champion, ultra distance records holder and eventual bicycle land speed record holder. Since that time they've sponsored numerous road, ATB and BMX teams, at both amateur and professional levels.
The subject bicycle has the pre-1983 Reynolds decal style, though it could extend into 1983 and possibly slightly later, depending on available inventory and stock rotation practices. Later high end KHS were manufactured by KHS, so the subject bicycle may also have been in-house manufacture. The serial number should may allow us determine the actual date and manufacturer. Photo assist...
The subject bicycle has the pre-1983 Reynolds decal style, though it could extend into 1983 and possibly slightly later, depending on available inventory and stock rotation practices. Later high end KHS were manufactured by KHS, so the subject bicycle may also have been in-house manufacture. The serial number should may allow us determine the actual date and manufacturer. Photo assist...
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11-17-22, 06:01 PM
#5
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Hey T-Mar!
Thanks for the photo assist (I had tried to add to an earlier edit of my initial post) and for detailing some of the background of KHS and its early bike production history. Definitely valuable to summarize for anyone searching for info in the future. The picture added above is a quick mock-up build, the frameset is currently at my LBS having the dropouts aligned and RD tab straightened and threads chased. The frameset is overall in great shape cosmetically but has clearly been sitting around for a long time. Once I get it back tomorrow, I will provide the BB serial number and other details!
So, based on the information provided, it would seem that these framesets were potentially contracted out to other manufacturers, either domestically (Taiwan) or abroad? It was a long shot, but I reached out to KHS America about two weeks ago asking for any information they might be able to provide, although with no response up until now. As regards quality, while the finishing is fantastic and the fabrication as well, there are a few small issues: namely that the rear brake bolt socket is off-center by a few millimeters, and the ST lug gap is cut slightly off-center. Not huge issues!
Thanks for the photo assist (I had tried to add to an earlier edit of my initial post) and for detailing some of the background of KHS and its early bike production history. Definitely valuable to summarize for anyone searching for info in the future. The picture added above is a quick mock-up build, the frameset is currently at my LBS having the dropouts aligned and RD tab straightened and threads chased. The frameset is overall in great shape cosmetically but has clearly been sitting around for a long time. Once I get it back tomorrow, I will provide the BB serial number and other details!
So, based on the information provided, it would seem that these framesets were potentially contracted out to other manufacturers, either domestically (Taiwan) or abroad? It was a long shot, but I reached out to KHS America about two weeks ago asking for any information they might be able to provide, although with no response up until now. As regards quality, while the finishing is fantastic and the fabrication as well, there are a few small issues: namely that the rear brake bolt socket is off-center by a few millimeters, and the ST lug gap is cut slightly off-center. Not huge issues!
11-17-22, 09:17 PM
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KHS manufactured some of their own bicycles and contracted some of their bicycle frames.
The KHS Professional: I have seen pictures of two different bicycles. The serial numbers were from 1982. Both had KHS stamped into the frame and Reynolds 531 tubes.
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11-18-22, 09:42 AM
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I was the SF Bay Area sales rep for KHS in the mid-80's, by then the Professional was built with Columbus SL tubing. These were built in Taiwan. I might have sold one or two of them, and if I did, they went to shop employees at wholesale. Everyone wanted a sexy Italian bike at the time.
The general manager at KHS was, and still is Wen Hsieh, one of Chin Chunh Hsieh's sons. He was sent to America to start up the US operations. He is a chemical engineer by training.
KHS was known by many as the maker of mid-level musical instruments. When I sold their bikes a lot of people remembered them from their high school band days.
The general manager at KHS was, and still is Wen Hsieh, one of Chin Chunh Hsieh's sons. He was sent to America to start up the US operations. He is a chemical engineer by training.
KHS was known by many as the maker of mid-level musical instruments. When I sold their bikes a lot of people remembered them from their high school band days.
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11-18-22, 11:01 AM
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I was the SF Bay Area sales rep for KHS in the mid-80's, by then the Professional was built with Columbus SL tubing. These were built in Taiwan. I might have sold one or two of them, and if I did, they went to shop employees at wholesale. Everyone wanted a sexy Italian bike at the time.
The general manager at KHS was, and still is Wen Hsieh, one of Chin Chunh Hsieh's sons. He was sent to America to start up the US operations. He is a chemical engineer by training.
KHS was known by many as the maker of mid-level musical instruments. When I sold their bikes a lot of people remembered them from their high school band days.
The general manager at KHS was, and still is Wen Hsieh, one of Chin Chunh Hsieh's sons. He was sent to America to start up the US operations. He is a chemical engineer by training.
KHS was known by many as the maker of mid-level musical instruments. When I sold their bikes a lot of people remembered them from their high school band days.
The later KHS Professional frames are even nicer, at least aesthetically. The OP's bicycle has the standard domed stay and blade ends provided by Reynolds. These don't look as refined as the chisel ends, which I've seen on Pro models at least as early as 1983. This is another reason to think the OP's frame is pre-1983, though the Professional still used Reynolds 531 in 1983.
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11-18-22, 11:43 AM
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Thanks T-Mar, Hummer and gugie for your input above! This definitely goes a long way to explaining the provenance of the frameset. I'm pleasantly surprised that this was made domestically in Taiwan, as well as happy to be educated that there were lugged frames of relatively high quality being produced there at the time. Having owned many Italian and British and American-made steel frames over the years, I'm very excited to finish the build and hopefully get some miles on the KHS this weekend and see how it rides - I will definitely share build pics and overall impressions here in the thread!
PS. gugie I came across your 650b "Weiglesque" Raleigh conversion after acquiring my '73 Competition early this year, and I have to say, beyond Weigle's well-known conversions your thread here on BF has convinced me that that's something I want to pursue eventually, as well.
PS. gugie I came across your 650b "Weiglesque" Raleigh conversion after acquiring my '73 Competition early this year, and I have to say, beyond Weigle's well-known conversions your thread here on BF has convinced me that that's something I want to pursue eventually, as well.
11-18-22, 01:03 PM
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KHS - the Mozart of bicycles.
I remember seeing a LOT of KHS mid-level bikes in the '80s... not hardly any high-end ones.
V1-Pro: better than a Skid Lid.
I had some of those Spenco gloves - the padding was amazing when new, but then it squished out to where you didn't need it and it was like riding in boxing gloves.
I remember seeing a LOT of KHS mid-level bikes in the '80s... not hardly any high-end ones.
V1-Pro: better than a Skid Lid.
I had some of those Spenco gloves - the padding was amazing when new, but then it squished out to where you didn't need it and it was like riding in boxing gloves.
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11-19-22, 12:36 AM
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Thanks T-Mar, Hummer and gugie for your input above! This definitely goes a long way to explaining the provenance of the frameset. I'm pleasantly surprised that this was made domestically in Taiwan, as well as happy to be educated that there were lugged frames of relatively high quality being produced there at the time. Having owned many Italian and British and American-made steel frames over the years, I'm very excited to finish the build and hopefully get some miles on the KHS this weekend and see how it rides - I will definitely share build pics and overall impressions here in the thread!
PS. gugie I came across your 650b "Weiglesque" Raleigh conversion after acquiring my '73 Competition early this year, and I have to say, beyond Weigle's well-known conversions your thread here on BF has convinced me that that's something I want to pursue eventually, as well.
PS. gugie I came across your 650b "Weiglesque" Raleigh conversion after acquiring my '73 Competition early this year, and I have to say, beyond Weigle's well-known conversions your thread here on BF has convinced me that that's something I want to pursue eventually, as well.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/gugie/albums
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If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
11-19-22, 11:43 AM
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Had a KHS John Howard Professional years ago. It came to me wearing white paint and no decals. Mine was a Columbus SL frame with Campagnolo drop outs. Cinelli spoiler bottom bracket, fork crown and airplane brake bridge. KHS stamped on top of NDS of the bottom bracket. Really nice frame.
I emailed John Howard to ask if he knew if the frames had been built under contract. I was pleasantly surprised when he replied. He didn't know who made the frames, but said they were really nice and said he still had one in his garage.
The link below has some fuzzy pics of the frame details
https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...fessional.html
I emailed John Howard to ask if he knew if the frames had been built under contract. I was pleasantly surprised when he replied. He didn't know who made the frames, but said they were really nice and said he still had one in his garage.
The link below has some fuzzy pics of the frame details
https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...fessional.html
Last edited by velomateo; 11-19-22 at 11:57 AM.
11-19-22, 12:47 PM
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heidelbergensis Thanks for starting the thread! Lots of things to learn around here.
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11-20-22, 10:18 AM
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KHS History
@heidelbergensis
here is a wiki with information on KHS: https://www.wikiwand.com/en/KHS_Bicycles
This is a portion of the wiki:
here is a wiki with information on KHS: https://www.wikiwand.com/en/KHS_Bicycles
This is a portion of the wiki:
History
KHS Co. Ltd. Was founded in 1953 as part of the KHS Group, privately held by the Hsieh Family. The initial product produced by KHS was motorcycles under Yamaha license. In 1974, the KHS bicycle division was established with technical cooperation from Sukosha of Japan. In 1987, the KHS Co. and Yamaha of Japan established a joint venture operation in order to increase production capacity and explore new markets around the world. Consequently, motorcycles are now exported to Greece, Portugal, Italy, India and Japan. United Engineering Corp. was established in 1988. Formerly known as the KHS Bicycle Factory, United Engineering Corp. now manufactures KHS bicycles, as well as bicycles for other companies throughout the world.
KHS Co. Ltd. Was founded in 1953 as part of the KHS Group, privately held by the Hsieh Family. The initial product produced by KHS was motorcycles under Yamaha license. In 1974, the KHS bicycle division was established with technical cooperation from Sukosha of Japan. In 1987, the KHS Co. and Yamaha of Japan established a joint venture operation in order to increase production capacity and explore new markets around the world. Consequently, motorcycles are now exported to Greece, Portugal, Italy, India and Japan. United Engineering Corp. was established in 1988. Formerly known as the KHS Bicycle Factory, United Engineering Corp. now manufactures KHS bicycles, as well as bicycles for other companies throughout the world.
11-20-22, 07:15 PM
#15
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Thanks again to everyone who chimed in here to identify and provide some information on this frameset! I can honestly say (because I looked) that there was no other thread anywhere (at least anglophone) that explicitly discussed the background of the KHS Professional prior to the John Howard-endorsed iterations from the mid-80s.
After the quick 35-mile shakedown ride on Saturday (at basically as many degrees Fahrenheit), I'm shocked at how great the ride quality is, somehow both much smoother and yet more agile than the Raleigh Gran Course I was riding before, and which wore the same 10sp Athena/Record build that's now on the KHS. I also love the more upright position with the shorter TT. It may not be the lustiest frameset I've ever owned, but it's the best-riding and most comfortable one I've built up in recent memory, hands down. I will go into further detail once I can post some pics, at which time I will also post a picture of the BB serial number.
More soon!
After the quick 35-mile shakedown ride on Saturday (at basically as many degrees Fahrenheit), I'm shocked at how great the ride quality is, somehow both much smoother and yet more agile than the Raleigh Gran Course I was riding before, and which wore the same 10sp Athena/Record build that's now on the KHS. I also love the more upright position with the shorter TT. It may not be the lustiest frameset I've ever owned, but it's the best-riding and most comfortable one I've built up in recent memory, hands down. I will go into further detail once I can post some pics, at which time I will also post a picture of the BB serial number.
More soon!
11-20-22, 09:43 PM
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My first bicycle helmet was a Bell Prime, which on sale was the only one I could afford at the time. At least the V1 Pro had vents - The no-vent Prime's advertised "under-helmet airflow" was woefully inadequate in the hot Arizona sun. But when I was drafting a city bus at well over 20 mph and the bus stopped and I didn't, that Prime did its job with no apparent damage to helmet or wearer (that was back when we thought "it it ain't shattered, it's still fine.")
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11-21-22, 08:10 PM
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Alright, time for some pics - but first a little backstory on the build!
About three years ago I had the idea of trying to make as modern of a downtube shifter-equipped Campagnolo gruppo as possible. This then led me to looking for a suitable laboratory for experimenting with this setup, which manifested itself in the form of a Raleigh Gran Course frameset I found on eBay. The first iteration was an 8sp Record build with Synchro 2 shifters but with more modern dual-pivot Athena ("Skeleton") calipers and an alloy Centaur Ultra-Torque crankset:
Eventually, I got my hands on some 10sp Campy bar-end shifters, which are basically just updated "Synchro 3" downtube shifters with rubber caps glued on, and which can be easily converted to downtube shifters providing you have braze-on stops with shelves long enough especially to accommodate the rather portly RD shifter:
This is the build that has ended up on the KHS Professional introduced in this thread:
I also discovered that the pull ratios for Campy 11sp and 10sp are the same, meaning that derailleurs can I guess be used interchangeably??? I was just as doubtful - it can't be that simple! - but after a month of crisp and flawless indexed shifting with 10sp downtube shifters and an 11sp Athena RD, I was a believer. Why doesn't Campy just make an "Eroica" groupset with downtube shifters? I found myself preferring this build and wanting to replicate something similar using my 9sp DA7700 DT shifters and an XTR RD. I can't get enough! Meanwhile, my brifters are somewhere stuffed in a box. I also broke the initial parameters of "Keeping It Campy" by installing a Sugino VP crankset to accommodate the beautiful 48t/34t 110bcd drillium chainrings offered by Velo Orange, which match the TRP levers.
While I only have one short 35-mile ride on this build, I already rather like the gearing (13-30 Chorus cassette in the rear) - to say nothing of the handling of the frameset! I want to do some measuring of the frameset to determine the wheelbase and chainstay length, but it is definitely a weird bird. As I mentioned above, the TT (56cm) is on the shorter side relative to the ST (62cm c-c). The BB is stamped 82110265, so I would personally guess that the first two digits might indicate a build year of 1982?
I'll stop here for now until I can get more time in the saddle this week, but on the whole I am really pleasantly surprised by this beautiful KHS. Who knew!
About three years ago I had the idea of trying to make as modern of a downtube shifter-equipped Campagnolo gruppo as possible. This then led me to looking for a suitable laboratory for experimenting with this setup, which manifested itself in the form of a Raleigh Gran Course frameset I found on eBay. The first iteration was an 8sp Record build with Synchro 2 shifters but with more modern dual-pivot Athena ("Skeleton") calipers and an alloy Centaur Ultra-Torque crankset:
Eventually, I got my hands on some 10sp Campy bar-end shifters, which are basically just updated "Synchro 3" downtube shifters with rubber caps glued on, and which can be easily converted to downtube shifters providing you have braze-on stops with shelves long enough especially to accommodate the rather portly RD shifter:
This is the build that has ended up on the KHS Professional introduced in this thread:
I also discovered that the pull ratios for Campy 11sp and 10sp are the same, meaning that derailleurs can I guess be used interchangeably??? I was just as doubtful - it can't be that simple! - but after a month of crisp and flawless indexed shifting with 10sp downtube shifters and an 11sp Athena RD, I was a believer. Why doesn't Campy just make an "Eroica" groupset with downtube shifters? I found myself preferring this build and wanting to replicate something similar using my 9sp DA7700 DT shifters and an XTR RD. I can't get enough! Meanwhile, my brifters are somewhere stuffed in a box. I also broke the initial parameters of "Keeping It Campy" by installing a Sugino VP crankset to accommodate the beautiful 48t/34t 110bcd drillium chainrings offered by Velo Orange, which match the TRP levers.
While I only have one short 35-mile ride on this build, I already rather like the gearing (13-30 Chorus cassette in the rear) - to say nothing of the handling of the frameset! I want to do some measuring of the frameset to determine the wheelbase and chainstay length, but it is definitely a weird bird. As I mentioned above, the TT (56cm) is on the shorter side relative to the ST (62cm c-c). The BB is stamped 82110265, so I would personally guess that the first two digits might indicate a build year of 1982?
I'll stop here for now until I can get more time in the saddle this week, but on the whole I am really pleasantly surprised by this beautiful KHS. Who knew!
Last edited by heidelbergensis; 11-22-22 at 03:42 PM.
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11-23-22, 01:44 PM
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Now with a Super Record post and after applying some metal polish to the components.
Quick lunch ride. Love this thing!
Likes For heidelbergensis:
