Russ Roth

I think you're hitting on the main issue which is that companies are overcharging for the electronic groupsets. I can walk into the LBS and buy the rival set and real prices since I've done this, 250 rear der, 150 1x crankset, shifters and brakes 425 for the pair, 100 for cassette, 25 for chain and 50 for batteries and charger, searching online I can find them cheaper if I want but that puts a groupset at 1000, the only savings is 25 on the shifters/brakes so msrp of 1025. The Rival 1x11 hydraulic groupset had an msrp of 950 yet the cost of the bikes they come on are significantly different. Both groups can use the same frameset, same wheels, and more yet Giant wanted 4k for their AXS equipped bike and 3k for the 1x11 when the groupset difference is 75, but you know, electronic is worth more. This is the main reason I've been building bikes. A wrench at the shop and I priced out the parts on a 12k trek road bike with Red on it, the end result was that trek believes that their frameset is worth close to 7k, building your own you could buy better, non-Bontrager parts and a custom frameset and still pocket 4-5k for something every bit as nice. But really, it seems that claiming electronic means you can add an absurd level of cost.

Jrasero

I think Rival AXS hands down is the best entry level 12 speed electronic shifting groupset period but like you alluded to it weighs a ton. I have fully invested and gone AXS eTap on both my bikes but to be honest the 11 Speed Ultegra that I had on my previous Canyon Ultimate CF SL 8.0 was pretty darn good and I got that bike back in 2020 for $2800 and with a set of Hunt carbon wheels the bike weighed like 16lbs flat.


In 2022 I bought my first aero bike and it also was my first 12 speed electronic shifting bike in a Scott Foil RC 20 and I had the same reaction as you and I asked did I make a big mistake buying this bike? Coming from lighter race bike the Foil felt really heavy (18.2lbs), didn't spin up as fast, didn't maintain speed as well, and didn't handle as well. I thought about selling it but then realized some of this was just the adjustment of going to an aero bike that inherently is always heavier due to the chunkier tubes but also because the deeper wheels and the really heavy groupset. I thought about selling the bike and just getting a lightweight bike again but I doubled down and started upgrading parts in a much lighter and wider staggered mid depth wheelset, lighter cranks, lighter cassette, and cutting weight in other places. The bike w/o pedals and mounts is closer to 16.65lbs which is a lot more manageable. The Foil still isn't as flickable or lively as my previous Ultimate but getting it up to speed and maintaining speed is a lot easier.


This is a long way and anecdotal way of saying while Rival is an awesome entry level 12 speed electronic groupset, it's weight really sucks and IMO if you are looking SRAM at least go Force if not Red for some parts or just payup and get the better complete bike.

ctak

UAE may as well be on stock Aethos builds
https://road.cc/content/tech-news/po...nt-bike-299775

ctak

Disc or rim, why spend $8k+ on something that will depreciate by 75% in 3-4 years?

My S-Works Roubaix (2015 rim brake model with Ultegra groupset and c24 9000s) was listed on Facebook for over 4 weeks at $1800 before I bought it. 15.4-lbs after swapping to an 11-speed Sram groupset and carbon bars (also used Facebook finds). My more recent S-Works Diverge disc build cost more but still under $3k.

I do like the wider tire clearances of disc and added stiffness afforded by thru axle frames and hubs… everything else not so much. The extra weight of the Diverge isn’t so bad for gravel, but I'll always prefer climbing on lightweight rim builds.

More than one good point from ol' Harley

aliasfox

My understanding is that while the previous version of Force AXS was one level up in the chain, it really wasn't any lighter than Rival AXS, and that the only major difference in weight came from the crankset. When my friend was asking for drivetrain recommendations, I suggested that Rival + Force crank got just about all of the benefits of Force, at a lower cost than all of Force. By the time he was finished waffling, Shimano had come out with 12-sp Ultegra, so went with that instead...

I've almost always been able to get my bike shifting seamlessly using cables, so I don't personally see a need to go electronic. I also like the satisfaction of knowing that I was able to get that proper 'kerthunk' between gears on my own, and that I'm not relying on electronics to do that. My one grumble is that it doesn't appear that Shimano will likely release an upper-echelon, mechanical, 12-speed system - not that I need 12-speeds, but they finally have cassette gearing that doesn't skip the 14T and 16T gears, unlike almost all of the 11-speed cassettes. Which gets us back to the original premise here- I don't need electronic shifting, and don't really want to pay significantly more for displeasure...

mstateglfr 

Perhaps a written summary of his points would help the conversation so that we all dont have to sit thru a 30 minute monologue to hear the more than one good points?

msu2001la

There are still a handful of mass-produced performance-oriented road bikes out there with rim brakes:

Colnago V3R
Pinerello Prince FX Ultegra
Giant TCR Advanced 2
Wilier GTR Team

SRAM still sells Force 11sp mechanical with rim brakes too. (They also make 12sp AXS with rim brakes, but I guess part of the rant is about electronic shifting?)

genejockey 

I've watched a number of videos about high-grade Chinese carbon frames on both Cam Nicholls' and Jourdain Coleman's YouTube channels, and I briefly flirted with the idea. The thing is, it's still too rich for my blood. Figure $1000 - 1500 for the frame and cockpit. Then another $1000 or so for wheels. Then another $1200-1500 for the kit, because it would have to be at least Di2 105 to make it different enough from what I've already got. Add a power meter, that's $800-1000 (dual sided). Then toss in another $300-500 for ancillaries, and you're talking $4300 - $5500 just to try out an aero bike with all the bells and whistles. And since the position would almost certainly be more aggressive than even my most aggressive current bike, would it even be comfortable? And if not, why would I spend more than any of my current bikes for a bike I wouldn't ride as far?

Jrasero

To your point there is only 183g between Rival and Force and the majority of that coming from the crankset not even the cassette and yeah a Rival Chain and Force chain have zero weight difference. This is why I am very for mixing all three groupsets together. While Red is pretty insanely priced, the difference between Rival and Red is a whopping 541g. Now most of that weight comes from the crankset -283g and cassette -71g. SRAM has really not been open about the weight of the new Force D2, but it's supposedly only 80g or so lighter than the D1 and that's with a power meter, so it's hard to say what the true weight is.

With this said while a Red crankset teeth aren't replaceable and it costs like $700, to loose 283g for that amount is pretty great. Some carbon wheelsets will not even shed 200g.

ctak

The gist is contained in the first few mins. All bravado and spit, on repeat, until he runs out of breath

Jughed

Didn't watch that video from him... but from his others -
disc brakes suck
disc brakes are slow
disc brakes are the cause of every crash
new bikes are built like crap
new bikes are heavy donkies
integrated cable routing sucks
new bike prices are insane

Awesome Dura Ace equipped bikes can be found on facebook marketplace all day for $300 Australian.

OH, and only eat sugar. Nothing else, just sugar.

Jrasero

As someone who watched a lot of that YouTube and built a Winspace T1500 with a mix of Force and Rival I will say you are pretty spot on price wise and while $4K-$5K isn't cheap, that same bike would be $7K-$9K if it was big name brand. Simply put there really isn't a cheaper way to get an Aero bike of this quality and performance at the price you spoke of. Also looking at your range of bikes I can easily say yeah the T1500 isn't an all day in the saddle bike where I would want to do a century in but comfort wise if you take away the wider tires and flexing seat post it has been just as "comfortable" as an Canyon Endurace. I think the obvious thing is the fact that since these aren't really carried in stores as complete bikes, there is no way in testing them out and we all have to go by word of mouth.

BTW the bike as shown weighs 18lbs.

Jrasero

Durianrider is a bit of a bloke. He has a lot of passion and I think at his core his believes actually make sense but like any internet troll he is a tad too polarizing. For years he went on and on about anti carbon about how it fails and is just a landfill junk yet went on to sell his "own" carbon bikes and then promote other brands like Winspace. He is anti disc brake but cycles only in Australia and Thailand which is very different from where a lot of his core audiences cycles which need/want disc brakes. He promotes buying used bikes, which is fine but doesn't realize most people don't have the marketplace and eye to spot clean bikes nor the mechanical ability to fix bikes. I do agree with the sentiment that bikes are overpriced, but his whole idea that modern bikes have planned obsolescence is stupid, since Di2 11 speed or older tech is still pretty plentiful.

genejockey 

That's a nice looking build!

Yeah, even shopping Canyon's Outlet, it looks like $6500 is the lowest you could get an Aeroad with electronic shifting.

The other thing I wonder about aero bikes, especially with deep section wheels is stability in crosswinds. It's almost always at least breezy here, and that means at least some of the time I'm dealing with crosswinds. I love the look of an aero frame with deep section wheels, but I fear being blown around too much.

mstateglfr 

Builds an aero bike then slaps a quadlock on to perch a giant cell phone atop the aero bike.
Apologies, I have a bad sense of humor. I just noticed that and chuckled.
The bike is super cool and if any of the Chinese brands made a carbon road bike frame(or gravel) in my stack and reach, I would be really tempted to pick one up. The fact that so many will paint what you want is even cooler.

Jrasero

Thanks!

Canyon makes amazing bikes but IMO they have really lost me QC and price wise. The Ultimate and Aeroad are still amazing bikes but $6500 for a direct to consumer bike is still a lot since at that price you could build a Winspace T1500 with SRAM Red. When I brought the bike to be built up at my LBS the mechanic had no clue who Winspace was and 6 months later I met three other riders who built T1500s up at that same LBS.

I am a pretty small and light rider but honestly the deeper wheels aren't that bad since they aren't V shaped. I mostly ride on covered bike paths so the wind is minimal. Either way the money you saved not going big name brand you can easily buy two carbon wheel sets: one deep and one mid/shallow

Jrasero

lol yeah it's a bit of an oxymoron. However even though I went all in with now two aero bikes I do think the industry has been too obsessed with aero and to OP's point, weight has been forgotten.

But my opinion is that electronic group sets make sense just they are really heavy especially Rival AXS. I never was too much of a weight weenie but after riding Rival AXS I really started to reconsider my bike part choices and became okay mixing and matching groupsets

Zaskar

Why not?

The $1,300 tires on my truck are depreciating. My $220 Nikes are depreciating. My $250 dinner out with my family was gone in 90 min. Sometimes we spend money on things that just give us enjoyment.

ctak

A friend built up a T1500 frame with Ultegra mechanical and Hunt 50s. His XL (also white) frame alone weighed in at 1320g. Total build with Assioma PM pedals 8.6kg. Around $4500 total cost. Not something I'd go for but he seems to like it as well.

Jrasero

Yeah total for my Winspace T1500 Force/Rival AXS not including the pedals, cages, and accessories was $4200 and that included a LBS building it up. Some of the biggest weight savers or at least keeping the weight down was TPU tubes (36g) and carbon saddle 130g. Again OP's question posts was people getting more cutting edge bikes but them weighing and costing a ton more. I think going to a Chinese brand or mixing groupsets you can skirt this problem to a huge degree since 18lbs, $4200, 12 speed electronic shifting as shown for an Aero bike IMO can't be had via any big bike brand period. Whether you can get behind a Chinese brand and allow yourself not to care about the name on the frame is your own prerogative but the crazy thing is there are even cheaper brands like Elves and Yoeleo that provide very similar quality

Jughed

So, Cannondale claims their aero bike with deep section aero wheels *can be* 3 min faster in a 40k TT over its regular race frame with normal wheels. 2 min faster with equal wheels.

I'm guessing that 3 min savings is at or about 300W (what most tests quote), going 40k into the same wind conditions the entire way. Probably dead flat, no tail wind sections...

That was the basis for my post above. Take a 2k 105 road bike with decent tires, real world conditions with stop lights, traffic, head/cross/tail winds, dogs - and the real biggie - being human and not holding 300w for an hour - how much time does that extra $5-8k really save? A minute? No time if you get stuck at a few redlights?

Jrasero

Not to get into some rant, but your body is one of the biggest depreciating assets yet we keep going. Houses are even depreciating assets, it's just the land that appreciates. IMO if something brings you joy and makes you a better person whether emotional or psychically then $8K if you can truly afford it is 100% fine. Now, people have different definitions of "afford", but IMO afford means you can either replace or repair it without going broke or touching your savings. Yes Americans live beyond there means so I am not here to promote $8K bikes but a modern $8K bike IMO is awesome but is what a Force eTap or Ultegra Di2 bike?

Jrasero

I 100% agree. It hasn't stopped me into buying into the aero marketing buzz, but yeah in real world scenarios aero IMO doesn't matter as much especially as a smaller rider. On a shallow light wheelset I can spin up and climb better, granted I do makeup time on the flats and descending with an aero bike.

genejockey 

I was thinking about an aero bike on yesterday's ride, when facing a 15 mph headwind for 6 miles. Sheesh.

ctak

Certainly enjoying my mostly depreciated and used S-Works stuff. If my salary was 500k an S5 DA build with Princeton CW could be fun. To each their own equation...