Charles Wahl

Notwithstanding my gaffe in post #73 above, it's been noticed in previous International discussions that the geometry varied from year to year. A '73 with very long chainstays, a '74 with shorter ones and less rear tire clearance, and so forth. While models by other manufacturers may have been more consistent over the years, Peugeot PX-10 is another model where changes were made that make bikes from one year to another handle differently.

In the end (mid-'80s), the "International" ("Mk II" along with the "Competition") was outsourced by Raleigh to Japanese manufacture, being (somewhat inexplicably, to me) replaced in Worksop by "Grand Tour" and "Gran Course" models. By that time, all 4 were (understandably, given the march of bike fashion) being made for sidepulls, with less clearance.

steelbikeguy

regarding the tubulars that came with the International... mine came with Vittoria Giro D'Italia. Cotton tires, I believe. They have never been glued on, and still hold air!




the rims were some very basic AVA rims. They predated the use of ferrules/eyelets, perhaps, and used washers under the nipples. The rims bulged a bit under the spoke tension.




As the photos hint, I'm running Mavic MA-2 rims and Veloflex Master tires on the bike right now.

Steve in Peoria

ascherer 

I'd love to see that Mk I please.

daka

It is in pieces right now, but here is a lousy "before" picture I took when I picked it up


Pretty complete for a 52 year old bike - the correct brake levers were in a bag alongside.

ascherer 

Wow, that looks pretty complete! So it’s a ‘69?

daka

I think so. Serial number begins with "D"

repechage

My awareness of the Raleigh Professional was just after the white livery ones.
when one compares to the later, Raleigh made a big visual change.

wonder what drove that?

daka

Everything I know about this bike I learned from Peter Kohler's "On the Drops" blog. I should add here that I didn't seek this bike out, it found me. My non-cycling brother was perusing an estate sale near his home, saw this bike leaning against the barn, offered fifty bucks and brought it home for me, knowing that I like old Raleighs.

The Mk 1 Professional was sold at a considerably lower price than the later, prettier ones and my suspicion is that the North American Raleigh distributor was looking for a model to sell against the Peugeot PX10E. One could easily say that it was built to a price - There is no chrome and the workmanship is the worst of any Carlton-built Raleigh I have (yes, even worse than the '73 Super Course). As an example, the stop for the downtube levers is brazed on waaay off center, probably 10 degrees off from where it should be.

This bike's future with me is uncertain. It is a 24 1/2 inch frame, bigger than I am comfortable on. It is, however, very complete and I can clean it up, rebuild the components and get it operable without spending a ton of money. New tubulars will be the biggest expense. So I will do that over the next couple months, ride it to see what how it feels/handles and then decide it's fate. I suppose it's relative rarity would make it collectible, but I don't have much space for that sort of thing.

ascherer 

daka Unbelievable deal, your brother is a good guy! Mine is E4870 so 1970, chromed somewhere along it's journey. There are two or three other chrome examples floating about. Yours is my size so if it doesn't work for you and you decide to part ways, do drop me a message but I hope you enjoy and ride it! I've found the ride to be really comfortable and solid across a lot of different conditions.

daka

You'd think with a name like "Professional" that we would be talking about a bike designed for racing, but the 18 inch chainstays and 41 inch wheelbase would indicate otherwise. Peter Kohler suggests that the genesis of the bike is from the models they built for the Ruberg race team which competed in an area where roads were cobbled and rough and the bikes were designed to be tolerant of that.

https://on-the-drops.blogspot.com/20...h-raleigh.html

ascherer 

I read Peter's excellent piece when I acquired my Mk I frame. I imagine a criterium frame would be torturous if not outright dangerous on the "cobbled classics" . I sometimes take mine on trails and gravel and it's a good fit for those conditions.

daka

For a couple of years I had a mid-seventies Peugeot PX10E (or perhaps it was an LE, it had white painted Bocama lugs, not Nervex) and it was short, stiff and so rigid it was punishing even on good pavement. I had expected a nice ride like the 1970 PA10 I had when I was in high school and was disappointed. Light and fast but brutal on the wrists and behind. Definitely not the bike for cobbled roads.

ascherer 

I have a 71 PX10E that has the slacker angles, it rides like it’s on rails. My 87 Mercian pro is light, stiff, responsive and fits me like a glove but it’s hard to ride on potholed and very rough/bumpy surfaces, it demands a lot of attention. If I didn’t have 34 years on it I’d have a harder time for sure. I like having both kinds of frames. I got an International for the rougher routes, and then I found the Mk I.

Pcampeau

I switched my wheels from 27” clinchers (non-original) to 700c clinchers. I had to change the back to Weinmann 750 not the front. Previously I had 610s front and rear. The front is at its max but it works, the rear would not make it. It was so close but I was rubbing tire no matter how I adjusted it. Mine is a 1975. Stays on these bikes were different lengths in different years. Perhaps that may account for our different results? It also wouldn’t shock me one little bit if the brake bridge on mine was brazed on just slightly higher because bike boom Raleigh/Carlton workmanship was known for imperfections. I really don’t know the answer but the Weinmann 750 works well.

merziac

I would like to get in line as well behind @ascherer if you decide to move this along.

ascherer 

I was able to use 610s on my 24" 1971, pads all the way with 700c Mavic Module 3s. The current setup has Mafac Racers. International geometry, lugs and workmanship varied a lot, some say not just year to year but day to day especially as the 70's rolled on. Yet they still enjoy a well-deserved reputation and following a half-century later.

gugie 

Since posting that mine was a '73 (back awhile on a different thread) I have discovered that it is actually a '71, once I figured out the Raleigh secret decoder ring. That and the big clue of the anniversary headbadge...

At any rate, based on the few Internationals that have passed through the Atelier, I'd wager that a '71 has longer chainstays than a '73. Not a lot longer, but enough for 650b x 42 tires to fit without dented the chainstays. Of course, with all things vintage Raleigh, YMMV.

ascherer 

Speaking of secret decoders what's considered the right-and-proper standard for measuring chainstay length? BB center to dropout center?

ascherer 

noglider and I have compared ours, the stays on my 71 are longer than his 74 (I think that's the year) and as such I can stuff wider tires into mine which accepts 700x35s with only minor whining.

daka

That is probably a good question for chainstay length expert RiddleOfSteel . The numbers I gave the other day were measured as you described - center of BB spindle to center of dropout slot.

On the Raleigh/Carlton brake length topic I can offer this data:
1969 Professional Mk 1 tubulars 610 front, 750 rear
1973 Super Course 27 x 1 1/4 750 front, 750 rear
1974 Super Course Mke II 27 x 1 1/4 610 front, 750 rear
1974 International 27 x 1 1/8 610 front, 610 rear

By accident or by design? Certainly not consistent.

Charles Wahl

I always measure chain stays center of BB to about where the seat stay axis intersects the center of dropout slot, along the stay. Maybe that's wrong, I'm no framebuilder, but it seems to comport well enough with available specs on bikes that I have. Much easier with a vertical dropout, of course, but there's only one of those in my hoard.

daka

As to tire clearance, there is also the issue of whether or not the frame was built with "normal" crimped chainstays or the Reynolds "Rapid Taper" crimpless ones. Of my bikes, the Professional Mk1, the Super Course Mk II and the International have the Rapid Taper stays - only the '73 Super Course has crimped stays.

Pcampeau

Mine is a 75 with 32mm tires and enough clearance to tempt me into trying 35mm. I think they’ll fit but if they don’t I’ll put them on my 73 Moto Le champ. I know they’ll fit there.

ascherer 

Likewise for my Pro and International, my son's 72 Super Course has crimped stays. Not sure if they ever used rapid tapers on the SC, but as gugie says, YMMV.

repechage

it varies
often it was at the forward adjustment limit when one wanted a smaller length to measure most “sporty”.

others went with midpoint.

note that bikes were always shipped with the axle adjusted forward.