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Tiagra 4700 front shifter + older 105 front derailleur

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Tiagra 4700 front shifter + older 105 front derailleur

Old 08-04-22, 03:00 AM
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Barchettaman
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Tiagra 4700 front shifter + older 105 front derailleur

Morning all,

I’m pretty sure it will work, but just before I buy and install it:

will a new 4700 front shifter pod work nicely with an older 10-speed 105 front derailleur?

I am aware that there are compatibility issues with the newer Tiagra stuff and the pull ratio on the rear, but there doesn’t seem to be any information about the front!

thanks in advance

(It’s for a flat bar road bike conversion. 2x9, 10-speed crank and chain)
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Old 08-04-22, 04:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Barchettaman
Morning all,

I’m pretty sure it will work, but just before I buy and install it:

will a new 4700 front shifter pod work nicely with an older 10-speed 105 front derailleur?

I am aware that there are compatibility issues with the newer Tiagra stuff and the pull ratio on the rear, but there doesn’t seem to be any information about the front!

thanks in advance

(It’s for a flat bar road bike conversion. 2x9, 10-speed crank and chain)
I understand that Shimano also changed the geometry of their road double front derailleurs about the same time, and that their newer double FDs are not compatible with older shifters for much the same reason (different actuation). However, I've also never been able to find any hard data confirming or refuting that. I haven't tried it myself, so I don't know for certain.

It's also my understanding that Shimano's few newer road triple FDs (primarily the Tiagra 4703 - I don't think the 11-speed Ultegra or 105 groupsets ever released a triple FD) do not use the new geometry (and thus the newer FD pull ratio), and thus should be compatible with older shifters. Same issue here: I've not been able to find any good data that would confirm or refute this, either. For some reason, tech info on FD pull ratios seems to be unavailable.

Like you, I'd hate to buy a shifter or FD and find out I'm the first "guinea pig" for initial testing. If you're converting to 10-speed, you might want to consider using a Tiagra 4700 FD - or sticking with an older double front shifter if you plan to keep the 105 FD - to be safe.

The 4700 FDs are readily available and aren't terribly expensive. I did a quick check on eBay and used braze-on FD-4700s can be had as low as $26 US (including shipping to a US address) plus applicable taxes.

Best of luck.

Last edited by Hondo6; 08-04-22 at 05:00 AM.
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Old 08-04-22, 12:11 PM
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ST-4700 STI is not compatible with the 10 speed FD-5700 front DR. https://productinfo.shimano.com/down...ty_v029_en.pdf .pdf page #21 or C-455. Same for 3x Tiagra too.

Tiagra 4700 is pretty much compatible with all the 11 speed stuff with the exception of it the STI for the rear.


Shimano makes it pretty easy to find all the information you need to know even way back to the vintage days.

https://si.shimano.com/en/#/

Compatibility and Line UP stuff is in the Technical Document tab. For stuff no longer made look in the archives for them.

Last edited by Iride01; 08-04-22 at 12:18 PM.
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Old 08-04-22, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Iride01
ST-4700 STI is not compatible with the 10 speed FD-5700 front DR. https://productinfo.shimano.com/down...ty_v029_en.pdf .pdf page #21 or C-455. Same for 3x Tiagra too.

Tiagra 4700 is pretty much compatible with all the 11 speed stuff with the exception of it the STI for the rear.
Not sure about your last statement above. The rear ST-4700 works perfectly to shift Shimano 11-speed road RDs - provided you use the combo to shift a 10-speed cassette. I'm running the ST-4700/RD-R7000/10-speed cassette combo now on one bike; it works flawlessly.

I haven't personally tried the inverse config (using an ST-R7000 rear shifter to shift an RD-4700 over an 11-speed cassette). But my guess is that would work just as well, since the RD-4700 indeed seems to be designed to operate using the 11-speed Shimano road pull ratio.

Last edited by Hondo6; 08-04-22 at 03:39 PM.
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Old 08-04-22, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Hondo6
Not sure about your last statement above. The rear ST-4700 works perfectly to shift Shimano 11-speed road RDs - provided you use the combo to shift a 10-speed cassette. I'm running the ST-4700/RD-R7000/10-speed cassette combo now on one bike; it works flawlessly.
I was in a hurry and didn't take time to word what I was trying to say correctly. Mostly I just didn't want anyone giving me grief about the ST-4700 not being able to shift an 11 speed rear cassette.

However the ST-4700 rear shifter will... I think, shift most any 10 speed rear cassette when used with a RD-4700 or any 11 speed Shimano road RD with a 10 speed cassette, for the crop of 105, Ultegra and DuraAce line that came out about the time of Tiagra 4700. Whether that's every 11 speed road RD, I'm not certain.

But I might be talking out of my head, so double check.
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Old 08-04-22, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Barchettaman
Morning all,

I’m pretty sure it will work, but just before I buy and install it:

will a new 4700 front shifter pod work nicely with an older 10-speed 105 front derailleur?

I am aware that there are compatibility issues with the newer Tiagra stuff and the pull ratio on the rear, but there doesn’t seem to be any information about the front!

thanks in advance

(It’s for a flat bar road bike conversion. 2x9, 10-speed crank and chain)
Look for a Tiagra 4600-2 Left shifter. They are still available here and there and on eBay. For a flat bar, you are kinda of stuck with an older double shifter.

John

Edit added: Of course you can always use a triple shifter. A Sora 3503 should work. Only word of caution is to make sure you don’t crank the high limit screw enough to stop the shift and wedge the shifter pawl. Allow a very slight amount of towards the outer (3) shift.

Last edited by 70sSanO; 08-04-22 at 05:09 PM.
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Old 08-04-22, 09:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Iride01
I was in a hurry and didn't take time to word what I was trying to say correctly. Mostly I just didn't want anyone giving me grief about the ST-4700 not being able to shift an 11 speed rear cassette.

However the ST-4700 rear shifter will... I think, shift most any 10 speed rear cassette when used with a RD-4700 or any 11 speed Shimano road RD with a 10 speed cassette, for the crop of 105, Ultegra and DuraAce line that came out about the time of Tiagra 4700. Whether that's every 11 speed road RD, I'm not certain.

But I might be talking out of my head, so double check.
OK, I can agree with you there. And I understand where you're coming from all too well; I dunno how many times I've been in a hurry and been imprecise in saying something myself.

Except for maybe GRX (arguably also suitable for road use), I think you're correct that 105/Ultegra/DA covers every Shimano mechanical 11-speed road derailleur out there.
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Old 08-05-22, 01:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Barchettaman
Morning all,

I’m pretty sure it will work, but just before I buy and install it:

will a new 4700 front shifter pod work nicely with an older 10-speed 105 front derailleur?

I am aware that there are compatibility issues with the newer Tiagra stuff and the pull ratio on the rear, but there doesn’t seem to be any information about the front!

thanks in advance

(It’s for a flat bar road bike conversion. 2x9, 10-speed crank and chain)
It will most probably not work very well. 4700 pulls a lot more cable per shift - even for the front.

My compatibility mix-matchin notes.
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Old 08-05-22, 06:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Bike Gremlin
It will most probably not work very well. 4700 pulls a lot more cable per shift - even for the front.

My compatibility mix-matchin notes.
I have to ask: did you actually find published or Internet-accessible hard info regarding front derailleur pull ratios, or did you measure them? If you measured them, would you mind posting the actual pull ratios (or a link to them, if you found them somewhere)? If that wouldn't violate a confidentiality agreement, of course.

I only ask because I've searched repeatedly for data on the topic (derailleur compatibility and pull ratios interest me). Info concerning the actual pull ratios for many rear derailleurs is readily available, but I've never been able to find published or Internet-accessible information that gives the actual pull ratio for any front derailleur.

Thanks in advance for your answer - and for your website, which is also a great resource.

Last edited by Hondo6; 08-05-22 at 06:57 AM.
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Old 08-05-22, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Hondo6
I have to ask: did you actually find published or Internet-accessible hard info regarding front derailleur pull ratios, or did you measure them? If you measured them, would you mind posting the actual pull ratios (or a link to them, if you found them somewhere)? If that wouldn't violate a confidentiality agreement, of course.

I only ask because I've searched repeatedly for data on the topic (derailleur compatibility and pull ratios interest me). Info concerning the actual pull ratios for many rear derailleurs is readily available, but I've never been able to find published or Internet-accessible information that gives the actual pull ratio for any front derailleur.

Thanks in advance for your answer - and for your website, which is also a great resource.
No confidentiality agreement (I've got no contact with bike manufacturers).

As for the info - it's a mix-match I gathered over the years.
Some of my own measurement, some from other mechanics, scarce official data I could find and similar.
It lived in txt documents and excell charts for some time, until a wiser friend convinced me to start publishing stuff online (and provided hosting for the first few years).
Publishing online provided a lot of help and feedback from enthusiasts and mechanics all over the world.
It also "forced" me to make the stuff more systematic.
Loads of updates and corrections over the years (I catch something, in some article, every month, that either needs update, addition or a correction).

Wasn't wise (long-sighted) enough to note all the details from the start.
Just wanted to have info about what I could mix and match (constant shortages of everything in my country ).
The upside is that most of the noted stuff is tried and confirmed in practice.
Tiagra shifters with "old-standard" 10-speed FD for example - a competitive cyclist friend was really eager to have it work fine, and it wouldn't work without a newer standard 11-speed FD (didn't go for a Tiagra once we figured a new FD is in store). I remember this for he had read my charts and came: "it won't work according to your charts, but could we give it a try?"
And I've been prudent enough to "hunt" for any discrepancies (i.e. if something does or doesn't work, while the existing charts state otherwise).
So it got improved over the years - and it lags a bit since I can't even see any really modern 1x12 and 1x13 (by rotor) stuff still.
edit - I wrote this "Rotor 1x13 groupset review" without having even seen the stuff - LOL (as noted in the article)

TL/DR - it's a mess, not a really scientific method, but it works in practice.
Not sure I would have pulled it off otherwise, since it's a hobby, one-man show still (my day job is with computers ).

As I like to joke:
Theory is when everything is known, but nothing works.
Practice is when everything works, but no one knows why.
In Bike Gremlin garage, we combine theory and practice: nothing works, and no one knows why!

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Old 08-05-22, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Bike Gremlin
No confidentiality agreement (I've got no contact with bike manufacturers).

As for the info - it's a mix-match I gathered over the years.
Some of my own measurement, some from other mechanics, scarce official data I could find and similar.
It lived in txt documents and excell charts for some time, until a wiser friend convinced me to start publishing stuff online (and provided hosting for the first few years).
Publishing online provided a lot of help and feedback from enthusiasts and mechanics all over the world.
It also "forced" me to make the stuff more systematic.
Loads of updates and corrections over the years (I catch something, in some article, every month, that either needs update, addition or a correction).

Wasn't wise (long-sighted) enough to note all the details from the start.
Just wanted to have info about what I could mix and match (constant shortages of everything in my country ).
The upside is that most of the noted stuff is tried and confirmed in practice.
Tiagra shifters with "old-standard" 10-speed FD for example - a competitive cyclist friend was really eager to have it work fine, and it wouldn't work without a newer standard 11-speed FD (didn't go for a Tiagra once we figured a new FD is in store). I remember this for he had read my charts and came: "it won't work according to your charts, but could we give it a try?"
And I've been prudent enough to "hunt" for any discrepancies (i.e. if something does or doesn't work, while the existing charts state otherwise).
So it got improved over the years - and it lags a bit since I can't even see any really modern 1x12 and 1x13 (by rotor) stuff still.
edit - I wrote this "Rotor 1x13 groupset review" without having even seen the stuff - LOL (as noted in the article)

TL/DR - it's a mess, not a really scientific method, but it works in practice.
Not sure I would have pulled it off otherwise, since it's a hobby, one-man show still (my day job is with computers ).

As I like to joke:
Theory is when everything is known, but nothing works.
Practice is when everything works, but no one knows why.
In Bike Gremlin garage, we combine theory and practice: nothing works, and no one knows why!

Thanks for taking the time to answer.

Oh well. I was hoping you had a source of hard info on FD pull ratios (e.g., SRAM 7-speed double FD pulls X.Xmm cable to shift, Shimano Mountain 10-speed triple FD pulls Y.Ymm cable per shift, etc . . . ). That info is available multiple places for many common rear derailleurs (including your site as I recall), but I've literally never seen it published for ANY front derailleur. (My apologies if that level of detail about rear derailleurs is on your site and I missed it somehow.)

That type of detailed info would be incredibly nice to have. It could be useful for predicting what FD/family of FDs might work cross-brand with another manufacturer's indexed front shifter(s). However, the proof is always a functional test.

I guess I'll either have to keep looking, or start measuring. Don't really have access to enough hardware for the latter, so it will almost certainly be "keep looking".

Last edited by Hondo6; 08-05-22 at 12:15 PM.
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Old 08-05-22, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Hondo6
Thanks for taking the time to answer.

Oh well. I was hoping you had a source of hard info on FD pull ratios (e.g., SRAM 7-speed double FD pulls X.Xmm cable to shift, Shimano Mountain 10-speed triple FD pulls Y.Ymm cable per shift, etc . . . ). That info is available multiple places for many common rear derailleurs (including your site as I recall), but I've literally never seen it published for ANY front derailleur. (My apologies if that level of detail about rear derailleurs is on your site and I missed it somehow.)

That type of detailed info would be incredibly nice to have. It could be useful for predicting what FD/family of FDs might work cross-brand with another manufacturer's indexed front shifter(s). However, the proof is always a functional test.

I guess I'll either have to keep looking, or start measuring. Don't really have access to enough hardware for the latter, so it will almost certainly be "keep looking".
Should have measured - it's a good idea.
FDs were less "problematic" until relatively recently, when Shimano made their own different standards for the new road and "gravel" groups.
I should measure and add that info.
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Old 08-05-22, 01:52 PM
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I’ve posted this a number of times that the Tiagra 4700 left double shifter seems to work with a Deore FD (Salsa Fargo Tiagra).

It kind of makes sense since newer road shifters work with GRX. And the direction is going towards 1x and 2x drivetrains only.

The only missing piece is how far back is it compatible. Can a early 90’s STI compatible XT FD work?

In my theoretical calculations, a Tiagra 4700 10 speed rear shifter should work with an older RD and an 8 speed cassette.

I’d like to try it one day. Running M900 FD & RD with a subcompact crank 2x8 might be a nice retro mod setup.

John

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Old 08-05-22, 02:11 PM
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The obvious answer is that front shifting is a lot more tolerant than rear shifters, especially for doubles. All it needs to do is pull enough cable to get to the limit screw for the large ring with a full click. If that requires more slack than you are used to so be it as long as it shifts. I'm using a 105 9sp triple left shifter on a 105 11sp double crank with a 105 11sp front derailleur. I shift up and it goes to the big ring without problem, I shift down and it falls down to the small. It has never derailed the chain, and it is a 10sp KMC chain so even that doesn't match. It just doesn't seem to matter. I have never been able to get my Chorus 10sp to work as well as this does.

Is Tiagra any different in front? I never understood why they made this one line somewhat incompatible with the others.
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Old 08-05-22, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by zacster
The obvious answer is that front shifting is a lot more tolerant than rear shifters, especially for doubles. All it needs to do is pull enough cable to get to the limit screw for the large ring with a full click. If that requires more slack than you are used to so be it as long as it shifts. I'm using a 105 9sp triple left shifter on a 105 11sp double crank with a 105 11sp front derailleur. I shift up and it goes to the big ring without problem, I shift down and it falls down to the small. It has never derailed the chain, and it is a 10sp KMC chain so even that doesn't match. It just doesn't seem to matter. I have never been able to get my Chorus 10sp to work as well as this does.

Is Tiagra any different in front? I never understood why they made this one line somewhat incompatible with the others.
Tiagra 4700 is newer, so it works with the rest of the Shimano road 11-speed derailleurs (front and rear).
Doesn't with the older models (front and rear).
To be more precise - I couldn't get it to work properly. Even the front double. It just wasn't what I'd call good enough.
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Old 08-05-22, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by zacster
Is Tiagra any different in front? I never understood why they made this one line somewhat incompatible with the others.
I believe the answer is yes for Tiagra 4700 and the 11 speed left “shifters”.

Anyone can correct me if I’m wrong.

I believe Shimano made a change to their trim function on the inner chainring. For years the FD would shift down, to the low limit screw, and you could run the lowest (inner) cassette cogs without needing to trim the FD.

I think that the new FD shifters shift to the inner chainring, but there is an additional trim that is needed to run the lowest cogs. From what I understand this was to prevent throwing the chain.

The older STI shifters don’t have this function. When you shift to the inner ring the FD bottoms against the low limit screw. So if there is some slack it doesn’t make much difference.

On the new shifters, I “think” the cable stops the shift and not the low limit screw. The low limit screw stops the trim(?).

John

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Old 08-08-22, 02:15 AM
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OP here.

Well, this thread grew legs and proved an absolute mine of information!

I also remembered that on my trainer in the cellar I have an older flat-bar Tiagra shifter pod (8-speed I think) so I’m going to use that.

If anyone is interested in seeing photos of a flat bar Eddy Merckx Corsa Extra conversation I will post them up. A bit of closure is always a good thing.
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Old 08-10-22, 02:15 AM
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tiagra crankset, FD and brakes
105 long cage RD
Tiagra double shifter
9 speed Shimano MTB shifter from the parts bin

it all works absolutely perfectly, shifts super smooth.
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