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single speed and front brake... really?

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Old 08-28-07, 02:38 PM
  #51  
turtle77
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Okay, so we can agree that a good majority of stopping power comes from the front brake, right? So, if there's an impending accident, whether or not one is using just their front brake, the front brake is going to be a variable in the equation that is probably one of the most important for avoiding the accident. What we don't want is for this to be more of a problem than a solution. As was stated, it seems like the people who tend to go over their bars while using the front brake are the people who are less competent at riding their bikes, and more to the point, braking.

So maybe what we should be discussing is competence.

How does one get better at using their front brake?

I think that if you're one of the people who are even slightly afraid or have any reservations whatsoever about using their front brake, you could greatly benefit from practicing moving your center of gravity backwards every time you brake (whether or not you use just a front brake or both). When you pull the brakes, move that butt back. You'll feel more in control and "grounded" and then when the time comes when you need to pull the brakes hard, you'll automatically shift your weight back (y'know, 'cuz you've been practicing and stuff) thus greatly reducing (I would almost say "completely avoiding") your potential for an over-the-bar accident. (Yeah, steep hills, etc. ... there's always an exception, I know, but I'm saying "a great majority of the time")
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Old 08-28-07, 02:42 PM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by Gordiep
When considering my own and other folks' personal safety, "adequate" doesn't cut it. The "design limits" of track bikes is that they are used on a track, and most street bikes are "designed" to use two brakes.

I've said it before: no one can reasonably argue that having fewer mechanisms to stop a moving bicycle is safer or better.

cept the street is filled with vehicles of all shapes and sizes some of which can't stop for sheot, "adequate" is plenty all day everyday whether you like it or not and the key is to drive each vehicle accordingly
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Old 08-28-07, 02:44 PM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by okpik
cept the street is filled with vehicles of all shapes and sizes some of which can't stop for sheot, "adequate" is plenty all day everyday whether you like it or not and the key is to drive each vehicle accordingly
Brilliant reasoning. Almost as precise as your syntax.
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Old 08-28-07, 02:49 PM
  #54  
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do you think it would be wise to ban semi's from the road because their braking ability is terrible? of course not, just like you wouldn't drive a heavy vehicle with crappy braking power like a sports car, bikes are no different

want absolute safety and a guarantee, stay inside and buy a toaster
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Old 08-28-07, 02:54 PM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by okpik
do you think it would be wise to ban semi's from the road because their braking ability is terrible? of course not, just like you wouldn't drive a heavy vehicle with crappy braking power like a sports car, bikes are no different

want absolute safety and a guarantee, stay inside and buy a toaster
Again, absolutely brilliant. The braking in a semi is amazing-- like a train, the trouble comes when they are loaded. Most sports cars are light and brake very well-- that's why they are performance vehicles.

Justifying personal recklessness by shoddy analogy with a totally different class of vehicles is idiotic, but I wouldn't expect any less from someone with an Abby Hoffman quote as their sig. You clearly don't know a damn thing.

Your responsibility as a rider is to ride as safely as in control as you can. That's the bottom line.
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Old 08-28-07, 03:01 PM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by Gordiep
Your responsibility as a rider is to ride as safely as in control as you can. That's the bottom line.

then all bikes should be equipped with dual disks front and back with redundant backup


your reasoning doesn't work in the real world, maybe you should actually get out in it and ride for awhile


bikes have been sold and continue to be sold with single back brakes only and they have plenty of stopping power, maybe you should take this issue up with bike manufacturers too
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Old 08-28-07, 03:48 PM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by okpik
then all bikes should be equipped with dual disks front and back with redundant backup


your reasoning doesn't work in the real world, maybe you should actually get out in it and ride for awhile


bikes have been sold and continue to be sold with single back brakes only and they have plenty of stopping power, maybe you should take this issue up with bike manufacturers too
I think I'm a little more real world than you, lad. I do 120 miles a week commuting, rain or shine-- my bike is my only vehicle, and I ride like a champ. Front and rear rim brakes have been on bikes for a long time, and the 'minimal brakes' fad is pretty new. It's just that-- a fad. I don't like that manufacturers put only one brake on-- not because I care whether you or any other trendoid wants to be foolish, but the consequences of asinine behavior by a minority of idiots redounds to those of us who try to ride with a little more integrity.

Like I said earlier, you have no valid arguments against running two brakes, but I have many for it. If you want to be fashionable or risky, go ahead, but don't act like a jackass criticizing those of us with more brains.
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Old 08-28-07, 04:04 PM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by Gordiep
I think I'm a little more real world than you, lad. I do 120 miles a week commuting, rain or shine-- my bike is my only vehicle, and I ride like a champ. Front and rear rim brakes have been on bikes for a long time, and the 'minimal brakes' fad is pretty new. It's just that-- a fad. I don't like that manufacturers put only one brake on-- not because I care whether you or any other trendoid wants to be foolish, but the consequences of asinine behavior by a minority of idiots redounds to those of us who try to ride with a little more integrity.

Like I said earlier, you have no valid arguments against running two brakes, but I have many for it. If you want to be fashionable or risky, go ahead, but don't act like a jackass criticizing those of us with more brains.
but but but....but.. brakes are sooooooo heavy!
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Old 08-28-07, 04:11 PM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by Gordiep
I think I'm a little more real world than you, lad. I do 120 miles a week commuting, rain or shine

that's two days work, and add snow and ice in winter
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Old 08-28-07, 04:21 PM
  #60  
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i haven't flipped over my handlebars since i was 9 or so riding the best walmart had to offer. but i do remember that when it happend it got a lot of sympathy from the ladies. mainly my mom.

so what i'm sayin is flip.
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Old 08-28-07, 04:39 PM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by okpik
that's two days work, and add snow and ice in winter
...and you get what, Abbie? I didn't realize that you live in the only city with Winter.
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Old 08-28-07, 05:20 PM
  #62  
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I've never heard anybody say to start braking with the rear, that way you won't flip when you use the front brake.

+1
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Old 08-28-07, 06:50 PM
  #63  
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Just read Sheldon
Originally Posted by Sheldon_Brown
Braking--Front, Rear or Both?
Since your bike has two brakes, one for each hand, if you want to stop as safely as possible, you need to pay attention to how you use each of them.
Conventional Wisdom
Conventional wisdom says to use both brakes at the same time. This is probably good advice for beginners, who have not yet learned to use their brakes skillfully, but if you don't graduate past this stage, you will never be able to stop as short safely as a cyclist who has learned to use the front brake by itself.
Maximum Deceleration--Panic Stops
The fastest that you can stop any bike of normal wheelbase is to apply the front brake so hard that the rear wheel is just about to lift off the ground. In this situation, the rear brake cannot contribute to stopping power, since it has no traction.
Won't I Go Over The Bars?
The rear brake is O.K. for situations where traction is poor, or for when your front tire blows, but for stopping on dry pavement, the front brake all by itself provides the maximum stopping power, both in theory and in practice. If you take the time to learn to use the front brake correctly, you will be a safer cyclist.
Many cyclists shy away from using the front brake, due to fear of flying over the handlebars. This does happen, but mainly to people who have not learned to modulate the front brake.
The cyclist who relies on the rear brake for general stopping can get by until an emergency arises, and, in a panic, he or she grabs the unfamiliar front brake as well as the rear, for extra stopping power. This can cause the classic "over the bars" crash.
Jobst Brandt has a quite plausible theory that the typical "over-the-bars" crash is caused, not so much by braking too hard, but by braking hard without using the rider's arms to brace against the deceleration: The bike stops, the rider keeps going until the rider's thighs bump into the handlebars, and the bike, which is no longer supporting the weight of the rider, flips.
This cannot happen when you are using only the rear brake, because as soon as the rear wheel starts to lift, there is not more braking force generated by it. Unfortunately, though, it takes twice as long to stop with the rear brake alone as with the front brake alone, so reliance on the rear brake is unsafe for cyclists who ever go fast. It is important to use your arms to brace yourself securely during hard braking, to prevent this. Indeed, good technique involves moving back on your saddle as far as you can comfortably go, to keep the center of gravity as far back as possible. This applies whether you are using the front, rear or both brakes. Using both brakes together can cause "fishtailing." If the rear wheel skids while braking force is also being applied to the front, the rear of the bike will tend to swing past the front, since the front is applying a greater decelerating force than the rear. Once the rear tire starts to skid, it can move sideways as easily as forward.
If you don't believe me, perhaps John Forester can convince you...see his Entry in the rec.bicycles FAQ on Front Brake Usage. (Unfortunately, the maintainer of that site has a habit of breaking links, so you may need to go to the rec.bicycles FAQ index to find the article.)
Learning to Use The Front Brake
Maximum braking occurs when the front brake is applied so hard that the rear wheel is just about to lift off. At that point, the slightest amount of rear brake will cause the rear wheel to skid. If you ride a conventional bike, the best way to master the use of your front brake is to practice in a parking lot or other safe space, applying both brakes at once, but putting most of the effort into the front brake. Keep pedaling as you brake, so that your legs will tell you immediately when the rear wheel starts to skid. Practice harder and harder stops until this happens, so that you will learn the feel of stopping fast, on the edge of rear-wheel liftoff.
Some cyclists like to ride a fixed-gear bicycle, that is, a bicycle that does not permit coasting. When you brake hard with the front brake on a fixed gear, the drivetrain gives you excellent feedback about the traction situation at the rear wheel. (This is one of the reasons that fixed gears are favored for winter riding.)
If you ride a fixed gear with only a front brake, your legs will tell you exactly when you are at the maximum brake capacity of the front brake. Once your fixed gear has taught you this, you will be able to stop any bicycle better, using the front brake alone.
If you find the fixed-gear concept intriguing, I have a major article on Fixed Gears for Road Use on this site, and also a page of Fixed-Gear Testimonials from happy converts.
When to Use The Rear Brake
Skilled cyclists use the front brake alone probably 95% of the time, but there are instances when the rear brake is preferred:
  • Slippery surfaces. On good, dry pavement, it is generally impossible to skid the front wheel by braking. On slippery surfaces, however it is possible to do so. It is nearly impossible to recover from a front wheel skid, so if there is a high risk of skidding, you're better off controlling your speed with the rear brake.
  • Bumpy surfaces. On rough surfaces, your wheels may actually bounce up into the air. If there is a chance of this, don't use the front brake. If you apply the front brake while the wheel is airborne, it will stop, and coming down on a stopped front wheel is a Very Bad Thing.
  • Front flat. If you have tire blowout or a sudden flat on the front wheel, you should use the rear brake alone to bring yourself to a safe stop. Braking a wheel that has a deflated tire can cause the tire to come off the rim, and is likely to cause a crash.
  • Broken cable...or other failure of the front brake.
  • Long mountain descents, when your front brake hand may get tired, or you may be at risk of overheating a rim and blowing a tire. For this situation, it is best to alternate between the front and rear brake, but not to use them both at once.
When to Use Both Brakes Together
Generally I advise against using both brakes at the same time. There are exceptions, however:
  • If the front brake is not sufficiently powerful to lift the rear wheel, the rear brake can help, but the best thing to do is to repair the front brake.Typical rim brakes lose a great deal of their effectiveness in rainy conditions, so using them both together can reduce stopping distances.
  • Long or Low bicycles, such as tandems and long-wheelbase recumbents have their front braking limited by the possiblity of skidding the front wheel, since their geometry prevents lifting the rear wheel. Such bikes can stop shortest when both brakes are applied. Tandem caution: when riding a tandem solo (no stoker on board) the rear brake becomes virtually useless due to lack of traction. The risk of fishtailing is particularly high if a solo tandem rider uses both brakes at once. This also applies to a lesser extent if the stoker is a small child.
Which Brake Which Side?
There is considerable disagreement as to which brake should be connected to which lever:
  • Some cyclists say it is best to have the stronger right hand (presuming a right-handed cyclist) operate the rear brake.
  • Motorcycles always have the right hand control the front brake, so cyclists who are also motorcyclists often prefer this setup.
There are also observable national trends:
  • In countries where vehicles drive on the right, it is common to set the brakes up so that the front brake is operated by the left lever.
  • In countries where vehicles drive on the left, it is common to set the brakes up so that the front brake is operated by the right lever.
The theory that seems most probable to me is that these national standards arose from a concern that the cyclist be able to make hand signals, and still be able to reach the primary brake. This logical idea is, unfortunately, accompanied by the incorrect premise that the rear brake is the primary brake. For this reason, I set my own bikes up so that the right hand controls the front brake, which is not the norm in the U.S.
I also do this because I'm right handed, and wish to have my more skillful hand operate the more critical brake.
See also my letter to Bike Culture magazine.

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Old 08-28-07, 06:52 PM
  #64  
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I reserve the rear brake for emergency situations. Love feathering the front through hard corners.
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Old 08-28-07, 07:01 PM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by baxtefer
Those sweeping accusations come from morons who don't know how to operate a front brake properly.
+!
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Old 08-28-07, 07:02 PM
  #66  
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brake modulation
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Old 08-28-07, 07:06 PM
  #67  
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Originally Posted by roadfix
Then why do motorcycles have rear brakes?
I fully realize that bicycles have different geometry, weight-to-rider ratios, tires, suspension and brakes than motorcycles. But, I do not think it really makes a difference.

I have been racing Superbikes for a number of years. No one . . . I repeat . . . No one racing motorcycles uses his rear brake. Except when you runoff the track. That's because the non-paved area when you runoff is slick (grass, gravel, sand, cinder), so the application of front brake will tuck the front (bad), whereas the application of the rear brake will slide out the rear (not as bad).

Using the rear brake to slow down on the track is 1) ineffective, since the weight is 100% transfered to the front tire, and 2) dangerous, since when there is no weight on the rear, and the rear brake is applied, it locks up. When it locks up, it slides out (bad).

I realize that all riders, bicycle and motorcycle, apply their brakes for different reasons. In racing or simply riding hard, you slow to begin a turn. But sometimes you just have something in the way and need to stop immediately. Either way, the rear brake does no good and only harm unless you're in danger of tucking the front, in which case the rear brake will simply do less harm than the front brake.

Bottom line is: on the track, you only use the front. Off the track, you can use the rear.

That said, I realize that sliding the rear is a big part of riding fixed. Not into it, but realize that it epitomizes the opposite of my philosophy of riding.

Also, I ride single speed with only a front brake and somehow feel a tad uneasy that it is my only chance to stop. Just had a great idea reading thru all this: TWO FRONT BRAKES!! Jeepers!
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Old 08-29-07, 12:01 AM
  #68  
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Why is there so much animosity to use a rear-brake along with your front-brake? Do you really think the weight matters? Are you such a tool that you'd give up the options the rear-brake gives you for looks?

Rear brakes DO help you control your velocity when you're at higher speeds, it affects your speed less than a front-brake so you can make minute adjustments in the middle of the peloton much easier, without the risk of overbraking and causing a crash (YES! You SHOULD know how to use a front-brake, but poop happens).

If you use your rear-brake and said poop occurs, you have your front-brake! YAY!

If you use your front-brake and said poop occurs (again), you have your rear-brake! YAY!

If you're using BOTH brakes and said poop occurs with BOTH of them...Well, then you can be fairly certain God hates you and you're screwed no matter what.
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Old 08-29-07, 12:40 AM
  #69  
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Sheldon FTW. Lyleph's quotation has great answers to the questions asked in this thread.
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Old 08-29-07, 05:18 AM
  #70  
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Originally Posted by Briareos
Do you really think the weight matters?
Yep. Think about it.
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Old 08-29-07, 06:48 AM
  #71  
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Originally Posted by roadfix
Then why do motorcycles have rear brakes?
Two reasons. First,the law says you must have 2 independent braking systems. That's why the hand brake in cars is called the 'emergency brake'. Second,although it doesn't provide as much stopping power as the front,every little bit helps. Bicycles and motorcycles have two contact patches;causing them both to slow/stop reduces braking distance.
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Old 08-29-07, 07:12 AM
  #72  
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Originally Posted by dynaryder
Bicycles and motorcycles have two contact patches;causing them both to slow/stop reduces braking distance.
Except when you're under braking, there's only one contact patch.
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Old 08-29-07, 07:35 AM
  #73  
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Originally Posted by Gordiep
I've heard lots of people say it, especially when I was Mtn Biking pretty seriously. A rear brake can be a real help when you are going downhill on tricky terrain. If you hit a patch of sand at speed, braking with the rear is much better than braking with the wheel that you are steering with.
Mountain biking is very different from biking on the road.

You still shouldn't use your rear brake a lot when mountain biking unless you absolutely have to (technical descents, rough downhills, etc.) because it tears the hell out of the trails.
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Old 08-29-07, 08:17 AM
  #74  
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Originally Posted by lvleph
Just read Sheldon

[/INDENT]
So where exactly does Sheldon say that you should scrub off speed with your rear brake to prevent yourself from flipping when you apply the front?
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Old 08-29-07, 08:34 AM
  #75  
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I almost never use my rear brake on my MC or my bicycles. They get used only when it's wet or there's sand/gravel in the road and even then it is used only very lightly. I am more afraid of using the rear brake because I understand physics.
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