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250w mid drive vs the 750w hub drive for hill climb

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250w mid drive vs the 750w hub drive for hill climb

Old 03-11-23, 10:20 AM
  #26  
Mike_Kelly
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In engineering there is something called maximum power transfer. In two systems, in order to transfer the maximum power they have to have the same impedance. In the bike the impedance is the cadence. THe problem with a hub motor is that it has one gear. Think of it as a fixie. This means that the gear choosen might be good for flat riding but not climbing or the other way around. You are stuck with it.
WIth a mid-drive you have the drivetrain of the bike. Just like your own legs you change the gearing for the hills because your legs want to pedal best at a certain cadence. The motors are the same way they want to spin at a best cadence and you want to match the load to what the motor wants. With a mid drive you can change gears on the drive train to match the load (hill) to the motor just like what you do for your legs. With the hub drive it has to work at the fixed gear inside no matter what you do shifting for your legs. They are decoupled. So if you ride in varied terrain the mid-drive is a better choice.
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Old 03-11-23, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by cat0020
I'
How many mid-drive ebikes have you owned? how many miles have you ridden on it?
Do you have similar riding experience on a hub-drive ebike to draw decent comaparison between the two?
.
myself I have owned 4 mid drive e bikes and I have ridden over 30,000 miles on them in 3.5 years. including 10,000 on a mid drive tandem. if you peddle the hub drive bike as much as a mid drive the drivetrain will still need lubed and cleaned the same amount. though I only get around 2500 miles on a 10 speed chain it would be hard to compare as almost no hub drives have 10 speed drivetrains.
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Old 03-11-23, 11:20 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by Mike_Kelly
In engineering there is something called maximum power transfer. In two systems, in order to transfer the maximum power they have to have the same impedance. In the bike the impedance is the cadence. THe problem with a hub motor is that it has one gear. Think of it as a fixie. This means that the gear choosen might be good for flat riding but not climbing or the other way around. You are stuck with it.
And common 7-speed freewheel cannot compensate for the gear range needed for majority of ebike riders?

Originally Posted by Mike_Kelly
WIth a mid-drive you have the drivetrain of the bike. Just like your own legs you change the gearing for the hills because your legs want to pedal best at a certain cadence. The motors are the same way they want to spin at a best cadence and you want to match the load to what the motor wants. With a mid drive you can change gears on the drive train to match the load (hill) to the motor just like what you do for your legs. With the hub drive it has to work at the fixed gear inside no matter what you do shifting for your legs. They are decoupled. So if you ride in varied terrain the mid-drive is a better choice.
Have you seen the video in few posts back of a hub-motor cargo ebike climbing the 3rd steepest hill in the US?
do you think majority of ebike riders do their riding in "varied terrain" that encounter hills similar to that on the video?

Originally Posted by fooferdoggie
myself I have owned 4 mid drive e bikes and I have ridden over 30,000 miles on them in 3.5 years. including 10,000 on a mid drive tandem. if you peddle the hub drive bike as much as a mid drive the drivetrain will still need lubed and cleaned the same amount. though I only get around 2500 miles on a 10 speed chain it would be hard to compare as almost no hub drives have 10 speed drivetrains.
I've converted over a dozen of MTBs and DH bikes into ebikes with hub-motors & mid-motors since 2013,
some well capable of 40+ mph on pavement.
In the past 5 years, I've owned nearly a dozen of different hub-driven ebikes and pedaled thousands of miles with them.
For my riding purpose in NYC metro, likely similar to majority of ebike riders who ride less than 2000 miles a year;
I don't have the need to spend over $2k for an ebike.

I sell or give away my own ebikes to promote the usage of ebikes among people I work with,
because I care about reducing their dependency on cars or reducing their risks in crowded subway commutes during a pandemic.

Thousands of delivery folks on cheap, hub-motor ebikes that ride 24/7 in all weather.
If they are not reliable, I doubt they would be so popular since their income depend on their ebikes being operational.
I have experienced similar as those thousands of delivery folks on ebikes,
hub-drive ebikes are just more reliable than mid-drive ebikes and far cheaper to buy,
to fix and to operate for long term.

If you have no data to rely on for hub-motor with 10-speed drivetrain, does that automatically present they can't be more reliable than mid-drive ebikes?
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Old 03-11-23, 11:55 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by cat0020
And common 7-speed freewheel cannot compensate for the gear range needed for majority of ebike riders?
most of the time I see most people with hub drives only in the smallest cog. I have never seen one shift yet.




Thousands of delivery folks on cheap, hub-motor ebikes that ride 24/7 in all weather.
If they are not reliable, I doubt they would be so popular since their income depend on their ebikes being operational.
I have experienced similar as those thousands of delivery folks on ebikes,
hub-drive ebikes are just more reliable than mid-drive ebikes and far cheaper to buy,
to fix and to operate for long term.

If you have no data to rely on for hub-motor with 10-speed drivetrain, does that automatically present they can't be more reliable than mid-drive ebikes?
I have seen huge mamoutnqs of problems on the bike forum about hub drive bikes.
had 14,000 miles on my first bosch mid drive then a bearing rusted out (the bike would stay wet for days in my unheated garage when it was 99% humidity for weeks on end) bosch replaced the motor out of warranty for free. then 10,000 miles on our bosch powered tandem no problems. 4200 miles on my trek no problems. bosch is known for longevity and for the longest lasting batteries of anyone. it just depends what you want in a bike. I dont want cadence only and thats mostly what you get with hub drives. I want my bike to feel great under me and perform well. we have gone off road on our e tandem and it has worked well. you get a lot more range from less battery too thats a huge plus. so it helps keep the weight down. sometimes cheap things last for ever sometimes they dont. sometimes higher quality lasts sometimes it does not. my mike bikes are my cars and I need every good reliability. I rode every day and tend to ride around 800 miles a month.
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Old 03-11-23, 12:09 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by fooferdoggie
I have seen huge mamoutnqs of problems on the bike forum about hub drive bikes.
What's a huge amount, 10, 50?
what specific problem have you seen?
problem with excess drivetrain wear?
If rider don't experience any problems; do you think you would see them posted on bike forums?

Originally Posted by fooferdoggie
had 14,000 miles on my first bosch mid drive then a bearing rusted out (the bike would stay wet for days in my unheated garage when it was 99% humidity for weeks on end) bosch replaced the motor out of warranty for free. then 10,000 miles on our bosch powered tandem no problems. 4200 miles on my trek no problems. bosch is known for longevity and for the longest lasting batteries of anyone. it just depends what you want in a bike. I dont want cadence only and thats mostly what you get with hub drives. I want my bike to feel great under me and perform well.
As you stated in your previous post: you replace the chain about 2500 miles, that's about 5-6 chains that you've replaced over 14,000 miles on your first Bosch mid drive?
how much does each replacement chain cost?
do you replace chainrings & cassettes with new chain each time?
Does that count as extra stress & wear on the drivetrain?

Originally Posted by fooferdoggie
we have gone off road on our e tandem and it has worked well. you get a lot more range from less battery too thats a huge plus. so it helps keep the weight down.
What kind of trails? hardpack or black diamond?
Have you ridden a hub-motor ebike on the same trail to give a good comparison?

Originally Posted by fooferdoggie
sometimes cheap things last for ever sometimes they dont. sometimes higher quality lasts sometimes it does not. my mike bikes are my cars and I need every good reliability. I rode every day and tend to ride around 800 miles a month.
I know delivery folks on cheap hub-motor ebikes logging 150-200 miles per day, does that count as reliable?
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Old 03-11-23, 12:39 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by cat0020
What's a huge amount, 10, 50?
what specific problem have you seen?
problem with excess drivetrain wear?
If rider don't experience any problems; do you think you would see them posted on bike forums?



As you stated in your previous post: you replace the chain about 2500 miles, that's about 5-6 chains that you've replaced over 14,000 miles on your first Bosch mid drive?
how much does each replacement chain cost?
do you replace chainrings & cassettes with new chain each time?
Does that count as extra stress & wear on the drivetrain?


What kind of trails? hardpack or black diamond?
Have you ridden a hub-motor ebike on the same trail to give a good comparison?



I know delivery folks on cheap hub-motor ebikes logging 150-200 miles per day, does that count as reliable?
I actually got 12,000 miles out of the drivetrain before the chainring started to jam. May still have gotten another chain on the cassette but I replaced it all. my tandem has held up well wore out the 13t cog as we ridden that one the most. wore outage chainring on my trek in 4200 miles so the replacement was steel.
I know hub powered bike that failed in less them then that. if you want to see all the issues go over to the forum and check it out
https://electricbikereview.com/forums/
Hub drives re not known real off-road riding. most are way too heavy dont have very good suspension and according to Grin they need to be kept under 1000 feet of climbing a hot.r I have exceeded that in 3 miles before.
I'm sure there are plenty of problems with delivery bikes too hell charigng batteries is a huge one
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Old 03-11-23, 12:55 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by fooferdoggie
I actually got 12,000 miles out of the drivetrain before the chainring started to jam. May still have gotten another chain on the cassette but I replaced it all. my tandem has held up well wore out the 13t cog as we ridden that one the most. wore outage chainring on my trek in 4200 miles so the replacement was steel.
How much do those replacement chain cost each time?

Originally Posted by fooferdoggie
I know hub powered bike that failed in less them then that. if you want to see all the issues go over to the forum and check it out
https://electricbikereview.com/forums/
I don't need to go see another forum, you claimed that you've seen "huge amount"; why should I do your research for you?

Originally Posted by fooferdoggie
Hub drives re not known real off-road riding. most are way too heavy dont have very good suspension and according to Grin they need to be kept under 1000 feet of climbing a hot.r I have exceeded that in 3 miles before.
I'm sure there are plenty of problems with delivery bikes too hell charigng batteries is a huge one
Do you think majority of ebike riders ride "real off road"?
Under 1000 ft. of climbing with a geared hub motor or fixed hub motor?
Does battery charging problem not occur on mid-drive ebikes?
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Old 03-11-23, 01:08 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by cat0020
How much do those replacement chain cost each time?


I don't need to go see another forum, you claimed that you've seen "huge amount"; why should I do your research for you?



Do you think majority of ebike riders ride "real off road"?
Under 1000 ft. of climbing with a geared hub motor or fixed hub motor?
Does battery charging problem not occur on mid-drive ebikes?
What I am supposed t count e very problem and report back to you? I mean you claim hub drives are more reliable but have yet to back that up with anything. I have been reading for 3 years all of the problems with cheap hub drive bikes. RAD used to have so many wheel failures it was not funny. lectric better not ride it in the rain and so on.
my battery charger and such is UL rated its not a cheap charger that has no real protection. most cheap chargers will sit there and trickle charge batteries unless you turn them off. all those cheap batteries are causing fires in New York. some of the picks of the charging setups are crazy. Unless you use throttle only you're going to wear Chans out on a hub drive too not as fast but they still wear. but since they tend to be 8 speed or less of course they will last longer. Grin who makes about the best Hug motors out there give their testy data on what hub motors can do. no way would one handle all the climbing I do.
You really have no numbers on how reliable these delivery bikes are. bikes tend to be reliable even the cheap ones.
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Old 03-11-23, 01:44 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by fooferdoggie
What I am supposed t count e very problem and report back to you? I mean you claim hub drives are more reliable but have yet to back that up with anything. I have been reading for 3 years all of the problems with cheap hub drive bikes. RAD used to have so many wheel failures it was not funny. lectric better not ride it in the rain and so on.
Whatever "hugh amount" of problems that you've seen, you need to provide data or evidence to support that claim of "huge amount" of problems.
I'm not responsible for providing data for you've seen nor your opinions.

Originally Posted by fooferdoggie
my battery charger and such is UL rated its not a cheap charger that has no real protection. most cheap chargers will sit there and trickle charge batteries unless you turn them off. all those cheap batteries are causing fires in New York. some of the picks of the charging setups are crazy.
Now we're hijacking the thread into battery problems?
I suspect most battery fire issues in NYC are due to people modifying OEM battery for more capacity or more voltage,
which voids warranty and likely shoddy work than OEM battery from ebike manufacturers.
Have you actually seen any article that specify ebike battery battery linked to OEM battery for certain?

Originally Posted by fooferdoggie
Unless you use throttle only you're going to wear Chans out on a hub drive too not as fast but they still wear. but since they tend to be 8 speed or less of course they will last longer.
I'm glad that you agree that mid-drive ebike cause extra stress on drivetrain than hub-drive motor.
7 8-speed chains are cheaper than 10-speed chains, too.

Originally Posted by fooferdoggie
Grin who makes about the best Hug motors out there give their testy data on what hub motors can do. no way would one handle all the climbing I do.
I know GRIN mostly fabricate fixed gear hub motors, not geared hub motors as RAD or Lectric.
Climbing ability is different between fixed hub motor vs geared hub motor, do you know the difference?
What kind of climbing do you do, can you specify?

Originally Posted by fooferdoggie
You really have no numbers on how reliable these delivery bikes are. bikes tend to be reliable even the cheap ones.
Did you ever asked for any numbers?
Do you honestly think if people have no problem with their hub motor would complain on forums?
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Old 03-11-23, 05:08 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by cat0020
And common 7-speed freewheel cannot compensate for the gear range needed for majority of ebike riders?



Have you seen the video in few posts back of a hub-motor cargo ebike climbing the 3rd steepest hill in the US?
do you think majority of ebike riders do their riding in "varied terrain" that encounter hills similar to that on the video?



I've converted over a dozen of MTBs and DH bikes into ebikes with hub-motors & mid-motors since 2013,
some well capable of 40+ mph on pavement.
In the past 5 years, I've owned nearly a dozen of different hub-driven ebikes and pedaled thousands of miles with them.
For my riding purpose in NYC metro, likely similar to majority of ebike riders who ride less than 2000 miles a year;
I don't have the need to spend over $2k for an ebike.

I sell or give away my own ebikes to promote the usage of ebikes among people I work with,
because I care about reducing their dependency on cars or reducing their risks in crowded subway commutes during a pandemic.

Thousands of delivery folks on cheap, hub-motor ebikes that ride 24/7 in all weather.
If they are not reliable, I doubt they would be so popular since their income depend on their ebikes being operational.
I have experienced similar as those thousands of delivery folks on ebikes,
hub-drive ebikes are just more reliable than mid-drive ebikes and far cheaper to buy,
to fix and to operate for long term.

If you have no data to rely on for hub-motor with 10-speed drivetrain, does that automatically present they can't be more reliable than mid-drive ebikes?
I am not sure if you understand the the bicycle freewheel/cassette has nothing to do with the hub motor? The hub motor has a single internal gear. It most of the time is chosen for flat riding. You can change them but it requires tearing the hub apart.
But with the mid-motor the bicycle gearing does work to match the load to the motor and the rider at the same time. So you can make the motor happy so it is not running too fast or too slow for the load. When it matches you get maximum power transfer and the motor runs cooler and lasts longer.
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Old 03-11-23, 05:13 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by Mike_Kelly
I am not sure if you understand the the bicycle freewheel/cassette has nothing to do with the hub motor? The hub motor has a single internal gear. It most of the time is chosen for flat riding. You can change them but it requires tearing the hub apart.
But with the mid-motor the bicycle gearing does work to match the load to the motor and the rider at the same time. So you can make the motor happy so it is not running too fast or too slow for the load. When it matches you get maximum power transfer and the motor runs cooler and lasts longer.
If you're not sure, just ask.
Do you know the difference between direct drive hub motor vs geared hub motor?
Both types of hub motor can be fitted with freewheel.

Last edited by cat0020; 03-11-23 at 05:17 PM.
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Old 03-11-23, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by cat0020
If you're not sure, just ask.
Do you know the difference between direct drive hub motor vs geared hub motor?
Both types of hub motor can be fitted with freewheel.
https://youtu.be/LUqDtQRHTz8
I wonder what the most commonly used hub motor?
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Old 03-11-23, 05:58 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by Mike_Kelly
I wonder what the most commonly used hub motor?
geared hub. the direct drive is almost dead. but stormer is the best one out there they have a torque sensor on their and from peoe who have ridden a lot of mid drives they said the stormers torque sensing is the smoothest. but in Ny you may not need a geared hub.
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Old 03-11-23, 06:07 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by fooferdoggie
but in Ny you may not need a geared hub.
Have you never been to West Point, NY; United States Military Academy?
just 35 miles outside of Manhattan.
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Old 03-11-23, 07:12 PM
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Originally Posted by cat0020
Have you never been to West Point, NY; United States Military Academy?
just 35 miles outside of Manhattan.
is that where the delivery drivers go?
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Old 03-11-23, 07:31 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by fooferdoggie
is that where the delivery drivers go?
As if only delivery riders ride ebikes?

Again you fail to answer my question: Have you never been to West Point, NY; United States Military Academy?
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Old 03-11-23, 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by cat0020
As if only delivery riders ride ebikes?

Again you fail to answer my question: Have you never been to West Point, NY; United States Military Academy?
nope never been but you keep trying about delivery drivers and what they ride. not sure what West Point has to do with any of it. is it a place delivery drives ride all the time?
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Old 03-11-23, 09:11 PM
  #43  
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You've stated that "in NY you may not need a geared hub".
Since you've never been to West Point NY, likely you have no idea how steep the hills are in NY metro area; relating to topic of thread about hill climb ability of ebikes.
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Old 03-15-23, 12:13 PM
  #44  
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I have had both types of bikes and sold the rear hub powered bike for a mid drive 250 wH one that weighed 43 lbs less. The key factor for hills is the nM or Newton meters of force the motor can provide to assist the pedaler going up a hill. I use my mid drive 26 lb e-bike to ride everywhere and the motor provides up to 25% of the power used on these rides. The battery provides enough juice for 12 or more hours of riding in this manner.

With the mid-drive the bike's tires, front and rear, are no more difficult to change than for a normal bike which is quite different than for a bike with a rear hub drive motor. One can carry a phone and have an account with Uber and request a pickup with a flat tire and fix it at home or have it done at a bike shop, but I prefer to fix it on the road and continue with my ride.
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Old 03-15-23, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Calsun
I have had both types of bikes and sold the rear hub powered bike for a mid drive 250 wH one that weighed 43 lbs less. The key factor for hills is the nM or Newton meters of force the motor can provide to assist the pedaler going up a hill. I use my mid drive 26 lb e-bike to ride everywhere and the motor provides up to 25% of the power used on these rides. The battery provides enough juice for 12 or more hours of riding in this manner.

With the mid-drive the bike's tires, front and rear, are no more difficult to change than for a normal bike which is quite different than for a bike with a rear hub drive motor. One can carry a phone and have an account with Uber and request a pickup with a flat tire and fix it at home or have it done at a bike shop, but I prefer to fix it on the road and continue with my ride.
How much does your 26 lb. mid-drive ebike cost? is that 26 lb. ebike with battery?
How much did your hub-drive ebike with extra 43 lb. cost?
Battery provides 12 hours of riding at what speed what elevation gain?

Changing flats is more difficult on the hub-motor wheel,
but no need to take the complete wheel off the bike to change out a flat, just loosen the wheel enough to maneuver the tube would be sufficient.
Without a functioning drivetrain, the mid-drive ebike do need a Uber ride, too.. but hub-motor ebike can just throttle home without a functional drivetrain.. likely cost way less than your mid-drive ebike.. for many more Uber rides.
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Old 03-15-23, 02:31 PM
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My rear hub bike required two large metric wrenches to loosen the axle bolts which is not needed on my present mid-drive bike which has convential road tires and skewers for quick release. The rear hub bike also needed special tires for its tires.

I learned from the first bike that it involved many compromises and so bought a very different bike to replace it. I can ride my newer bike home without need for the motor drive at all. But I am fit enough to provide a good deal of pedal power and that is what I prefer as I get more benefit by doing so.

I can understand the inclination of people to want to praise whatever product they have purchased and if it makes them happy then I could care less.
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Old 03-15-23, 02:53 PM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by Calsun
My rear hub bike required two large metric wrenches to loosen the axle bolts which is not needed on my present mid-drive bike which has convential road tires and skewers for quick release. The rear hub bike also needed special tires for its tires.

I learned from the first bike that it involved many compromises and so bought a very different bike to replace it. I can ride my newer bike home without need for the motor drive at all. But I am fit enough to provide a good deal of pedal power and that is what I prefer as I get more benefit by doing so.

I can understand the inclination of people to want to praise whatever product they have purchased and if it makes them happy then I could care less.
But you didn't answer my questions:
How much does your 26 lb. mid-drive ebike cost? is that 26 lb. ebike with battery?
How much did your hub-drive ebike with extra 43 lb. cost?
Battery provides 12 hours of riding at what speed what elevation gain?

A battery lasting for 12 hours or more of (operation) riding on an ebike is a rather outrageous claim; do you have any data (or evidence) to support that claim?
How many times have you done 12 hours or more of riding and battery was still ok?
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Old 03-25-23, 01:31 PM
  #48  
Mike_Kelly
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Geared hub motors are simply used to reduce the speed of the motor to something useful for the application. It still is a fixed gear. Now a mechanic could go in and replace the gear for something more friendly to the application (flat or climbing) but in the end it is a fixed gear. A single reduction gear. it is like a single speed bike. You can choose what gear you put on the fixie but you have to live with your choice up and down hills.
The motor is still decoupled from the bike derailleur gears. The bikes gears only help the rider adapt to the terrain the hub motor has to live with the gear it came with.
With a mid-drive the bike gears help the motor and the rider adapt to changing terrain.
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Old 03-25-23, 03:13 PM
  #49  
cat0020
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Just the same as a fixed cog on the mid-drive motor; that's a fixed gear, too.
Doesn't change the fact that you will always need the chain connecting to the rear cogs/wheel for the ebike to be ridable.
Without the chain, your mid-drive ebike is not operational, but a hub drive ebike can still be ridden and propelled by the motor; do you dispute that fact?
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Old 03-25-23, 06:13 PM
  #50  
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Crikey, hand bags at dawn...

I'm not really an experienced ebiker, built my donor 1yr ago has a 1500W rear hub 52V 17.5Ah branded battery.

I can ride it without the drive train although I prefer to have chain on so bike feels natural and I can get some exercises and use PAS / throttle whenever I see fit, I leave it middle gear

My ebike will go up hill such as this as 15mph and not even blink, the thought of having to mess with gears to do this fills me with dread...

For me I would never consider getting a mid drive, why fanny about with gears for minimal power savings when you bought the bike to have fun....?
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