Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > General Cycling Discussion
Reload this Page >

A lot of the recent "innovation" is a bad bargain for anyone not pushing a competitiv

Notices
General Cycling Discussion Have a cycling related question or comment that doesn't fit in one of the other specialty forums? Drop on in and post in here! When possible, please select the forum above that most fits your post!

A lot of the recent "innovation" is a bad bargain for anyone not pushing a competitiv

Old 06-29-21, 06:54 AM
  #1  
CheGiantForLife
Banned
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 287
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 526 Post(s)
Liked 72 Times in 41 Posts
A lot of the recent "innovation" is a bad bargain for anyone not pushing a competitiv

Is a consumer better off riding a 1978 steel road bike that's maintainable with simple tools I bought 40 years ago? Is much of the recent "innovation" is a bad bargain for anyone not pushing a competitive racing edge. Eg, Is carbon anything as an anti-feature.​ ?

Last edited by CheGiantForLife; 06-29-21 at 07:46 AM.
CheGiantForLife is offline  
Likes For CheGiantForLife:
Old 06-29-21, 07:01 AM
  #2  
Koyote
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 7,764
Mentioned: 37 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6881 Post(s)
Liked 10,871 Times in 4,636 Posts
Very interesting post.

I mean, we've never discussed this question around here.
Koyote is online now  
Old 06-29-21, 07:16 AM
  #3  
AdkMtnMonster
Airplanes, bikes, beer.
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Off the front
Posts: 763

Bikes: Road bikes, mountain bikes, a cx bike, a gravel bike…

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 398 Post(s)
Liked 788 Times in 339 Posts
The guy rides unicycles.
AdkMtnMonster is offline  
Likes For AdkMtnMonster:
Old 06-29-21, 07:24 AM
  #4  
pgjackson
Senior Member
 
pgjackson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Gulf Breeze, FL
Posts: 4,128

Bikes: Rossetti Vertigo

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 229 Post(s)
Liked 119 Times in 70 Posts
If your goal is exercise and trying to get in shape, why do you want to make your training equipment easier to use?
However, a lot of cyclists enjoy the "gadget" aspect of cycling (including me), and there is noting wrong with that. It's fun to tinker with your gear. And if it leads to motivation to actually ride, then it works.
pgjackson is offline  
Old 06-29-21, 08:07 AM
  #5  
Iride01 
I'm good to go!
 
Iride01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 14,805

Bikes: Tarmac Disc Comp Di2 - 2020

Mentioned: 50 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6099 Post(s)
Liked 4,730 Times in 3,260 Posts
Hard to make significant improvements with new tech to things that aren't used by performance crazed individuals.

However when you look, there are plenty of new low priced bikes out there. But of course, they have dated technology just like the old vintage bikes.

Of course you have to turn a blind eye to the lack of inventory due to COVID supply chain disruptions.
Iride01 is online now  
Old 06-29-21, 08:13 AM
  #6  
70sSanO
Senior Member
 
70sSanO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Mission Viejo
Posts: 5,768

Bikes: 1986 Cannondale SR400 (Flat bar commuter), 1988 Cannondale Criterium XTR, 1992 Serotta T-Max, 1995 Trek 970

Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1935 Post(s)
Liked 2,148 Times in 1,312 Posts
E-bikes destroy your point that innovation is for those who are competitive.

John
70sSanO is offline  
Likes For 70sSanO:
Old 06-29-21, 08:26 AM
  #7  
Iride01 
I'm good to go!
 
Iride01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 14,805

Bikes: Tarmac Disc Comp Di2 - 2020

Mentioned: 50 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6099 Post(s)
Liked 4,730 Times in 3,260 Posts
Originally Posted by 70sSanO
E-bikes destroy your point that innovation is for those who are competitive.

John
I'm not sure about that. People have been putting motors on bicycles ever since there were bicycles. The only innovation I see for e-bikes with the passing years is how much they try to disguise the fact they are e-bikes.

While I'm being snide in the remark, I also see the use for them. I've tried to talk my wife into getting an e-bike hoping maybe she'd enjoy riding the rolling terrain around us.
Iride01 is online now  
Old 06-29-21, 08:35 AM
  #8  
MattTheHat 
Senior Member
 
MattTheHat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Allen, TX
Posts: 2,624

Bikes: 2021 S-Works Turbo Creo SL, 2020 Specialized Roubaix Expert

Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 762 Post(s)
Liked 3,982 Times in 1,415 Posts
Originally Posted by CheGiantForLife
Is a consumer better off riding a 1978 steel road bike that's maintainable with simple tools I bought 40 years ago? Is much of the recent "innovation" is a bad bargain for anyone not pushing a competitive racing edge. Eg, Is carbon anything as an anti-feature.​ ?
These types of posts crack me up. Does *anyone* actually *need* a bike? No. Walking or running work fine. We *could* all be riding single speed beach cruisers! I think the average consumer is pretty smart at determining their need, and assessing the value of different features/materials/technologies.

And all my bicycle tools are pretty simple. Now I'm wondering what complicated tools I might be missing...and if they're available in a high-performance lightweight carbon version that cost more!
MattTheHat is offline  
Old 06-29-21, 08:44 AM
  #9  
ksryder
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 2,549

Bikes: yes

Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1281 Post(s)
Liked 643 Times in 329 Posts
Originally Posted by MattTheHat
These types of posts crack me up. Does *anyone* actually *need* a bike? No. Walking or running work fine. We *could* all be riding single speed beach cruisers! I think the average consumer is pretty smart at determining their need, and assessing the value of different features/materials/technologies.

And all my bicycle tools are pretty simple. Now I'm wondering what complicated tools I might be missing...and if they're available in a high-performance lightweight carbon version that cost more!
Right? By the logic of these types of threads we should all be content with our 16" screen B&W Zenith televisions and AM mono car radios.
ksryder is offline  
Old 06-29-21, 08:50 AM
  #10  
Rolla
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 2,888
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1346 Post(s)
Liked 3,269 Times in 1,439 Posts
Many of the features on that 1978 steel road bike were once "innovations" designed for a "competitive edge," and there was some skeptic waxing nostalgic about how his 1935 ballooner was just as good.

And so it shall always be.
Rolla is offline  
Old 06-29-21, 08:56 AM
  #11  
Reflector Guy
Senior Member
 
Reflector Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: Chicago
Posts: 1,340

Bikes: Bianchi Infinito XE, Via Nirone 7, GT Aggressor Pro

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 599 Post(s)
Liked 1,270 Times in 588 Posts
Originally Posted by MattTheHat
And all my bicycle tools are pretty simple. Now I'm wondering what complicated tools I might be missing...
I heard those newfangled "metric" wrenches and hex sockets are pretty complicated. After all, they build airplanes and rockets with them!
Reflector Guy is offline  
Likes For Reflector Guy:
Old 06-29-21, 08:57 AM
  #12  
UniChris
Senior Member
 
UniChris's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Northampton, MA
Posts: 1,909

Bikes: 36" Unicycle, winter knock-around hybrid bike

Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 930 Post(s)
Liked 393 Times in 282 Posts
Originally Posted by ksryder
Right? By the logic of these types of threads we should all be content with our 16" screen B&W Zenith televisions and AM mono car radios.
The difference in usability between a small CRT and say a 21-24 inch modern flatscreen is immediately apparent, nevermind the more serious issue of energy usage and the never quite settled x-ray concern that put several pounds of lead in the glass of each.

What aspect of an older steel frame bike comes close to that for an ordinary user? And if you do find something, what prevented that specific aspect from being addressed in isolation?

A lot of the features being pushed are more like the "smart TV" idea - which sounds great, but doesn't necessarily enhance most users experience over a chosen stand alone streaming box, creates vendor/provider lock in, makes you a data source, precludes maintainability, and creates many new often seen failure modes leading to embarrassingly short service life for the whole purchased product.

​​​​​One of the main thing to realize with the smart TV trend is that manufacturers do it as a distraction and to have something to "differentiate" when the process of showing pixels on glass is fairly consistent across brands within a given size and price tier. There may be differences a buyer should be paying attention to, but the smart features are a big dog-and-pony show distraction to keep attention away from matters of substance.
​​​​
So with a bike, what people should be asking is if it fits, has the gearing and can take the tires for their desired riding, then durability, parts standardization, if they're going to be able to self maintain or what that's going to cost. When was the last time feature-driven marketing wasn't designed specifically to conceal or even intentionally frustrate those last points?

Last edited by UniChris; 06-29-21 at 09:16 AM.
UniChris is offline  
Likes For UniChris:
Old 06-29-21, 09:23 AM
  #13  
Troul 
Senior Member
 
Troul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Mich
Posts: 7,291

Bikes: RSO E-tire dropper fixie brifter

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked 2,909 Times in 1,884 Posts
There will be new stuff coming & going in the market & it's a matter of preference if you like it or not, have a personal want/need for it, see the benefit in having it, the list goes on.

Biggest issue with "new" bicycle tech [innovation] is when it replaces something that is very similar to it predecessor [should it happen] . If a 11 speed E-shifting system took away entirely or made it severely hard to get the 11 speed cable shifting system, then there will be "war" .
__________________
-Oh Hey!
Troul is offline  
Old 06-29-21, 09:27 AM
  #14  
70sSanO
Senior Member
 
70sSanO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Mission Viejo
Posts: 5,768

Bikes: 1986 Cannondale SR400 (Flat bar commuter), 1988 Cannondale Criterium XTR, 1992 Serotta T-Max, 1995 Trek 970

Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1935 Post(s)
Liked 2,148 Times in 1,312 Posts
Originally Posted by Iride01
I'm not sure about that. People have been putting motors on bicycles ever since there were bicycles. The only innovation I see for e-bikes with the passing years is how much they try to disguise the fact they are e-bikes.

While I'm being snide in the remark, I also see the use for them. I've tried to talk my wife into getting an e-bike hoping maybe she'd enjoy riding the rolling terrain around us.
One could argue the advances in electric motors, but lithium ion batteries for consumer use is the real innovation. From iPhones to Teslas, Li-ion batteries have changed the world.

The only except might be professional cycling.

John
70sSanO is offline  
Old 06-29-21, 09:31 AM
  #15  
genejockey 
Klaatu..Verata..Necktie?
 
genejockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 17,649

Bikes: Litespeed Ultimate, Ultegra; Canyon Endurace, 105; Battaglin MAX, Chorus; Bianchi 928 Veloce; Ritchey Road Logic, Dura Ace; Cannondale R500 RX100; Schwinn Circuit, Sante; Lotus Supreme, Dura Ace

Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10243 Post(s)
Liked 11,595 Times in 5,942 Posts
Originally Posted by CheGiantForLife
Is a consumer better off riding a 1978 steel road bike that's maintainable with simple tools I bought 40 years ago? Is much of the recent "innovation" is a bad bargain for anyone not pushing a competitive racing edge. Eg, Is carbon anything as an anti-feature.​ ?
Define "better off".

Also, why do people keep talking about going faster as something you only need/want to do if you're racing?
__________________
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."

"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
genejockey is online now  
Likes For genejockey:
Old 06-29-21, 09:35 AM
  #16  
UniChris
Senior Member
 
UniChris's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Northampton, MA
Posts: 1,909

Bikes: 36" Unicycle, winter knock-around hybrid bike

Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 930 Post(s)
Liked 393 Times in 282 Posts
Originally Posted by genejockey
Also, why do people keep talking about going faster as something you only need/want to do if you're racing?
Most of going faster is training, next having a bike style suited to the riding (eg, if you want to go fast on roads a road bike not a hybrid)

This is theoretically 1% faster than that stuff is just pointless for the average person.

If it also makes total cost of ownership more expensive, it's a bad deal.

Last edited by UniChris; 06-29-21 at 09:38 AM.
UniChris is offline  
Old 06-29-21, 09:42 AM
  #17  
70sSanO
Senior Member
 
70sSanO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Mission Viejo
Posts: 5,768

Bikes: 1986 Cannondale SR400 (Flat bar commuter), 1988 Cannondale Criterium XTR, 1992 Serotta T-Max, 1995 Trek 970

Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1935 Post(s)
Liked 2,148 Times in 1,312 Posts
The innovation that has really benefitted the average rider is index shifting, especially being able to shift while keeping your hands on the handlebar. Partnered with shifting aids, it takes the lowest level of skill to operate.

I remember when Shimano came out with SIS. One of the negative aspects for professional riders was the loud click of the DA 7400 shifters. I had a set of 7401 shifters and they were so loud on a quiet route you could probably hear the click for an eighth of a mile. No sneaking up with those.

But my younger self did enjoy those times of trying catching up to someone knowing those shift clicks were heard coming up… lol.

John
70sSanO is offline  
Likes For 70sSanO:
Old 06-29-21, 09:43 AM
  #18  
genejockey 
Klaatu..Verata..Necktie?
 
genejockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 17,649

Bikes: Litespeed Ultimate, Ultegra; Canyon Endurace, 105; Battaglin MAX, Chorus; Bianchi 928 Veloce; Ritchey Road Logic, Dura Ace; Cannondale R500 RX100; Schwinn Circuit, Sante; Lotus Supreme, Dura Ace

Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10243 Post(s)
Liked 11,595 Times in 5,942 Posts
Originally Posted by UniChris
Most of going faster is training, next having a bike style suited to the riding.

This is theoretically 1% faster than that stuff is just pointless for the average person.

If it also makes total cost of ownership more expensive, it's a bad deal.
I've posted on other threads about my 25.5 mile midweek route, which I've ridden with 7 different bikes now. There's 4 minutes difference in best time between my newest bike (2020) and my oldest (1982). Same route, same rider, similar effort (based solely on HR, since they don't make power meters for Dura Ace 7200 cranks). Basically a 5% difference.
__________________
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."

"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
genejockey is online now  
Likes For genejockey:
Old 06-29-21, 09:49 AM
  #19  
UniChris
Senior Member
 
UniChris's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Northampton, MA
Posts: 1,909

Bikes: 36" Unicycle, winter knock-around hybrid bike

Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 930 Post(s)
Liked 393 Times in 282 Posts
I suspect each of us thinks that forty years of innovation and who knows what expense yielding a 4-minute difference after 25 miles rather makes their point.

That's what, bad timing luck at two traffic lights?
UniChris is offline  
Likes For UniChris:
Old 06-29-21, 09:58 AM
  #20  
Troul 
Senior Member
 
Troul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Mich
Posts: 7,291

Bikes: RSO E-tire dropper fixie brifter

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked 2,909 Times in 1,884 Posts
Some of the innovation may have inspired folks to go to a modern road bicycle whereas they might have not done so if the styling didn't change. Looks can go a long way for gaining new interest imo. How many actually prefer the newer look of threadless stems vs the legacy stuff?
__________________
-Oh Hey!
Troul is offline  
Old 06-29-21, 09:58 AM
  #21  
UniChris
Senior Member
 
UniChris's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Northampton, MA
Posts: 1,909

Bikes: 36" Unicycle, winter knock-around hybrid bike

Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 930 Post(s)
Liked 393 Times in 282 Posts
Originally Posted by 70sSanO
The innovation that has really benefitted the average rider is index shifting, especially being able to shift while keeping your hands on the handlebar. Partnered with shifting aids, it takes the lowest level of skill to operate.
Moving the shifting mechanisms from the downtube to the bars is the kind of simple, low consequence thing that could be done in isolation.

Index shifting on the other hand - it might lower rider skill needs a tiny bit, but it's also another dimension that now needs to be kept in adjustment sending the bike to the shop. Most consumers wouldn't dare touch those screws.

But even if it's on your worthwhile list, it's again an inexpensive to initially implement, isolated change.
UniChris is offline  
Old 06-29-21, 09:59 AM
  #22  
genejockey 
Klaatu..Verata..Necktie?
 
genejockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 17,649

Bikes: Litespeed Ultimate, Ultegra; Canyon Endurace, 105; Battaglin MAX, Chorus; Bianchi 928 Veloce; Ritchey Road Logic, Dura Ace; Cannondale R500 RX100; Schwinn Circuit, Sante; Lotus Supreme, Dura Ace

Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10243 Post(s)
Liked 11,595 Times in 5,942 Posts
Originally Posted by UniChris
I suspect each of us thinks that forty years of innovation and who knows what expense yielding a 4-minute difference after 25 miles rather makes their point.

That's what, bad timing luck at two traffic lights?
If there were lights on the route, which there aren't.

Basically the older bike is not as fast as the newer bike. It's also a bit less comfortable, doesn't brake as well, and requires more tweaking. AND with friction shifters, more fiddling while riding. Now, clearly since they're BOTH my own bikes, I like them both, and enjoy riding both. But one of them is faster and more capable in more situations. I would not take the 1982 bike up a big climb or down a technical descent, for example - not enough gears for the former, not enough brakes for the latter.
__________________
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."

"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
genejockey is online now  
Likes For genejockey:
Old 06-29-21, 10:02 AM
  #23  
70sSanO
Senior Member
 
70sSanO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Mission Viejo
Posts: 5,768

Bikes: 1986 Cannondale SR400 (Flat bar commuter), 1988 Cannondale Criterium XTR, 1992 Serotta T-Max, 1995 Trek 970

Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1935 Post(s)
Liked 2,148 Times in 1,312 Posts
One more thing about index shifting. In 1986 my wife and I got new road bikes. I found a shop that happened to have the 600 SIS 6 speed index system and had it installed on her new Univega. Even though she had used friction in the past, index shifting was so much better for her.

As for myself, 2015 was the year I retired my retro-friction shifters for the 7401 index shifters. While nothing is better than a perfectly seamless friction shift, knowing a downshift without pedal pressure was correct when coming up from an underpass was more than worth it.

If 1978 is the dividing line. There is a whole bunch of stuff that is being used by average riders.

Don’t even start on the impact of suspension on the sport of mountain biking.

John

Last edited by 70sSanO; 06-29-21 at 10:05 AM.
70sSanO is offline  
Old 06-29-21, 10:05 AM
  #24  
Jax Rhapsody
Rhapsodic Laviathan
 
Jax Rhapsody's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Louisville KY
Posts: 1,003

Bikes: Rideable; 83 Schwinn High Sierra. Two cruiser, bmx bike, one other mtb, three road frames, one citybike.

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 222 Post(s)
Liked 123 Times in 91 Posts
Originally Posted by ksryder
Right? By the logic of these types of threads we should all be content with our 16" screen B&W Zenith televisions and AM mono car radios.
We could still be using flint lock pistols and blunderbusses, too, but that's not the point of his question. I think it's more the line of; is what was out there good enough? Why the constant need of improving, or "improving"? At what point has it just gotten too much, there are refridgerators out there you could probably play Skyrim or Runescape on.A fridge has one, maybe two jobs, and it really only needs to do one; keep things cold, not despense water or hop on Facebook.
Jax Rhapsody is offline  
Likes For Jax Rhapsody:
Old 06-29-21, 10:08 AM
  #25  
PeteHski
Senior Member
 
PeteHski's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 8,174
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4273 Post(s)
Liked 4,707 Times in 2,907 Posts
Having ridden bikes since the mid 70s, I prefer how modern bikes ride even if they are a little less "simple". You don't need to be a racer to benefit from lighter, stiffer frames etc. You just need to choose the right type of bike for your needs and there's a lot more variety these days. For me a modern endurance road bike is the best option for most of my road riding. Of all the road bike developments I've seen since the 70s, tyres are probably the most significant upgrade, but pretty much everything else is better too. I certainly wouldn't call 1978 the pinnacle of bicycle development. It would also be a bit odd to limit development around the use of a 40 year old tool set! The only things I'm not 100% sold on are fully integrated cable routing and press-fit BBs.
PeteHski is online now  
Likes For PeteHski:

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.