Rivendell Atlantis or Vintage
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Have you ever met GP?
Not a Rivendell owner, now or ever (although I did buy a front rack many years ago) - My opinion is that GP is firm in his beliefs about bicycle design and definitely a 'retro-grouch' about materials/components. He is not afraid to express strongly his ideas regarding the industry and it's trends. In the 3X I've met him, he was mild-mannered, intelligent and considerate - but a serious fellow, without a doubt. He runs a relatively small company, retains employees, and sells a quality product. He is not building race bikes, but has been selling 'gravel grinders' (and tourers) since before the term became recently popular. More power to him - I appreciate the diversity he offers.
Not a Rivendell owner, now or ever (although I did buy a front rack many years ago) - My opinion is that GP is firm in his beliefs about bicycle design and definitely a 'retro-grouch' about materials/components. He is not afraid to express strongly his ideas regarding the industry and it's trends. In the 3X I've met him, he was mild-mannered, intelligent and considerate - but a serious fellow, without a doubt. He runs a relatively small company, retains employees, and sells a quality product. He is not building race bikes, but has been selling 'gravel grinders' (and tourers) since before the term became recently popular. More power to him - I appreciate the diversity he offers.
#27
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"The Atlantis used to be built by Toyo, in Japan. All new Atlantis frames are built in Wisconsin. Quality is the same, highest quality."
From what I've read, he's said the frames need to be as heavy as they need to be.
"The Atlantis frame and fork weigh about a pound more (combined) than our A. Homer Hilsen, a road frame. The extra weight comes by means of stouter tubes and a wider fork crown, and pays for itself in the extra durability needed for rough riding and load-toting. A pound is hardly anything, when you consider the weight of your body and between 16 and 21 pounds of parts, wheels, racks, and fenders. So don't let that pound scare you. There isn't an ounce of fat on the Atlantis. It's just a rugged, strong bike, and one you'll likely have and ride for the rest of your life."
So have you met him? That's the question.
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#28
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Again- I own no Rivendell stuff. I live 15 miles north of Waterford and 50 miles east of Trek.
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Nothing against GP, I ascribe to some of his philosophy, I don't ride clipped in or with toe straps and never will. I've met the people at VO a couple of times now and they are bike freaks, my kind of folks. I would be much more likely to buy a VO frame and build out a complete bike for the cost of a Rivendell frame alone.
From what I can tell of the Rivendell frame geometry chart, this is a 26" version of a Bombadil.
P4170270 by galoot_loves_tools, on Flickr
From what I can tell of the Rivendell frame geometry chart, this is a 26" version of a Bombadil.
P4170270 by galoot_loves_tools, on Flickr
Last edited by Paramount1973; 03-30-14 at 03:34 AM.
#32
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"Porky"? Do you care to share where you're pulling that opinion from?
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#33
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I'm smiling here. I love this controversy. I've never ridden a Rivendell or a last-run Bridgestone, but I respect them. I don't know if I'll ever plunk down the money for a Rivendell, but I won't criticize anyone who does, given the reports I've heard of them.
This thread just inspired me to read this page, and I'm amused. Sure, Grant sounds pretentious, but in my view, it's because he is educated and clever. You may not like his writing, but I bet you can't write as entertainingly as he does. I happen to like it. I really should buy his latest book. I'm sure I'll enjoy it.
fender1, maybe you don't want to repeat yourself, but it would be nice if you could give your thoughts on your Rivendell.
This thread just inspired me to read this page, and I'm amused. Sure, Grant sounds pretentious, but in my view, it's because he is educated and clever. You may not like his writing, but I bet you can't write as entertainingly as he does. I happen to like it. I really should buy his latest book. I'm sure I'll enjoy it.
fender1, maybe you don't want to repeat yourself, but it would be nice if you could give your thoughts on your Rivendell.
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#34
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And Golden Boy, I'm enjoying your contributions here!
Let's take bets on how long this thread lasts. Maybe I'll invite Grant to join in or at least read. He probably doesn't spend time on forums, or fora, as he and I might call them.
Let's take bets on how long this thread lasts. Maybe I'll invite Grant to join in or at least read. He probably doesn't spend time on forums, or fora, as he and I might call them.
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#35
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I have my theories as to why people have so much hate and enmity towards Petersen and Rivendell.
Most of what he writes and the ad copy are just common sense. I've read "Just Ride" and while I take the concept of "the unracer" as pretty hokey- I don't understand how 'wear comfortable clothes, a steel bike is nice, you can enjoy riding without it being a competition' translates into the malignity that it does. There's something about it that just twerks people to the point they HAVE to comment.
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No hate at all. The bike fill a niche. They are heavier than most other options. I feel comfortable saying many people I have never met have huge egos. Manny Pacquiao, Valentino Rossi, Kurt Vonnegut, Robin Thicke, and Hillary Clinton to name a few. All of whom I like in varying degrees. Grant's line doesn't do much for me, but hey, some people love it. Viva la difference.
#37
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What are you comparing? Where are you getting your weight data from?
Petersen's ego doesn't seem to be any bigger than anyone else who posts stuff on web pages or forums.
The tone of your posts would indicate otherwise.
The tone of your posts would indicate otherwise.
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Well you are like a dog with a bone. As I said I don't by into the Riv "mystique". I think there is a lot of silliness surrounding the whole brand lifestyle thing they have going. And as far as weight, last time I perused the Riv website, the ad copy/blog posts on the site said Rivendells were heavy but that would contribute to their longevity and so on and so forth. It is not a particularly controversial statement to say that Rivs are heavier than other frames availabe, especially at that pricepoint. However, if someone buys into the Riv "mystique" than more power to em, get one and ride it.
And as previously stated, my ego is also pretty large.
And as previously stated, my ego is also pretty large.
#39
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This is an entertaining thread. Since I can't afford a Rivendell bike I can't say much about them because obviously I will choose a cheaper alternative. They do look nice in pictures. I read/skimmed Grant Peterson's book "Just Ride" one evening at a book store. I definitely got the impression that he is a very opinionated guy and thinks highly of his opinions. I found it a bit contradictory though that his book is titled "Just Ride". He is extremely specific about the way people should ride bikes, the type of bikes they should ride and the type of clothing they should wear. Maybe he should have titled the book: Just Ride As Long As You Do It My Way. I also found some of his theories a little ridiculous. For example, he suggests swerving around a bit and acting a little out of control while riding in traffic in order to make sure drivers are aware of you.
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When I visited Rivendell (back in the 90s) with the thought of buying, GP gave me a dissertation explaining why his bikes were superior. It was a very good lecture and I learned a great deal about the benefits of low temp brazing, mixed tubesets, lower BBs etc. I had ridden there on my '84 Centurion, a 15 sp tourer, so maybe he thought he had a like minded fellow to sell to. The 2 bikes I demo'd were very nice, surprisingly nimble/responsive for their size. I did not think of them as heavy (no racks or fenders or stuff). They were lighter than my fendered, Tange 2 Centurion. I did think they were expensive, but he had given this 'unknown guy' who just walked-in an inordinate amount of his time. I later learned that the person who built his customs was from Wisconsin - is it Curt Goodrich? - a highly regarded framebuilder. I later met a builder (from whom I bought a bike) who repaired frames for Rivendell that described the extensive process by which GP had vetted his work. Nothing but respect for GP and his company. Craig Calfee is another I've met for whom I have utmost respect.
Edit = I don't think of people with strongly held opinions as being egotistical - maybe our definition of 'big ego' is different. Now my neighbor, who drives 2 Mercedes, has his yard professionally maintained, owns a pedigreed labradoodle, and talks about skiing champagne powder at Vail & Deer Valley - he has a big ego. GP backs up his opinion with a quality product.
Edit = I don't think of people with strongly held opinions as being egotistical - maybe our definition of 'big ego' is different. Now my neighbor, who drives 2 Mercedes, has his yard professionally maintained, owns a pedigreed labradoodle, and talks about skiing champagne powder at Vail & Deer Valley - he has a big ego. GP backs up his opinion with a quality product.
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#41
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Well you are like a dog with a bone. As I said I don't by into the Riv "mystique". I think there is a lot of silliness surrounding the whole brand lifestyle thing they have going. And as far as weight, last time I perused the Riv website, the ad copy/blog posts on the site said Rivendells were heavy but that would contribute to their longevity and so on and so forth. It is not a particularly controversial statement to say that Rivs are heavier than other frames availabe, especially at that pricepoint. However, if someone buys into the Riv "mystique" than more power to em, get one and ride it.
And as previously stated, my ego is also pretty large.
And as previously stated, my ego is also pretty large.
I think both of our egos are pretty huge- between the two of us that accounts for in excess of 5000 posts here in the past 5 years.
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No hate at all. The bike fill a niche. They are heavier than most other options. I feel comfortable saying many people I have never met have huge egos. Manny Pacquiao, Valentino Rossi, Kurt Vonnegut, Robin Thicke, and Hillary Clinton to name a few. All of whom I like in varying degrees. Grant's line doesn't do much for me, but hey, some people love it. Viva la difference.
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This is an entertaining thread. Since I can't afford a Rivendell bike I can't say much about them because obviously I will choose a cheaper alternative. They do look nice in pictures. I read/skimmed Grant Peterson's book "Just Ride" one evening at a book store. I definitely got the impression that he is a very opinionated guy and thinks highly of his opinions. I found it a bit contradictory though that his book is titled "Just Ride". He is extremely specific about the way people should ride bikes, the type of bikes they should ride and the type of clothing they should wear. Maybe he should have titled the book: Just Ride As Long As You Do It My Way. I also found some of his theories a little ridiculous. For example, he suggests swerving around a bit and acting a little out of control while riding in traffic in order to make sure drivers are aware of you.
#44
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Better emend that to: "Once you buy into the Rivendell mystique, it's hard to do with much of anything else."
And to a limited extent, I'll agree: Rivs ARE nice bikes- and some of them fulfill funky, in-between roles that other bikes don't address (if you really want a double top-tube, you don't have any other choice in an off-the-shelf bike). BUT-- as has been covered in many places on this forum-- there are equally nice alternatives; sometimes even at the same price-point. Nobody ever seems to mention Ebisu when they bring up Rivendell... Does anyone mention Breadwinner or Toei? Toyo? How about cutting out the middleman and going straight to Waterford? And for $4K? C'mon-- for $4K you can get a fully bespoke frame. Hell- you can buy a Singer or a Rene Herse for $4K. At the low end of the pricing scale, how about Soma? VO? Handsome?
Just in terms of pure performance there are A LOT of better bikes on the market. But let's make some fair comparisons-
Is the Roadeo a better (lugged steel) sport bike than the Torelli Delirio or the Serotta Colorado CS? Than a Bob Jackson or a Mondonico Monza?
Is the Atlantis reeeally a better touring bike than a Koga Traveller or a Thorn Nomad? A Miyata 618 or Trek Cirrus? Or- new, for the price- even an LHT?
And you'll answer: "But they're not Rivs." Precisely my point: Rivendells are subject to commodity fetishism of a type I find quite surprising; it's almost cult-like... The fascination with Rivs is an ardor for a specific object, an intoxication with a specific bicycle, not with how well that bike performs its role, or even how it's made or looks. With a Riv, you're also buying into GP's philosophy on life- it comes fully equipped with Nervex lugs AND a meta-narrative; no other bike can offer it's owners so much.
Btw, don't take my critique the wrong way- I don't mind Rivs; I just find their owners a tad overbearing at times, like when the J-Dubs & Hare Krishnas try to sell you a religion.
Beautiful! That crankset's a real stunner.
Here's my oddball 650b Panasonic (same vintage as your Mk 1); semi-custom frame & (eventually) full-custom paint; when fully built- and very nicely kitted out- this bike will clock in at $200 LESS than a stock Hillborne frameset. Behind it, my 650b Trek 820 (orig. $90), and my XO-3 (orig. $300).
And to a limited extent, I'll agree: Rivs ARE nice bikes- and some of them fulfill funky, in-between roles that other bikes don't address (if you really want a double top-tube, you don't have any other choice in an off-the-shelf bike). BUT-- as has been covered in many places on this forum-- there are equally nice alternatives; sometimes even at the same price-point. Nobody ever seems to mention Ebisu when they bring up Rivendell... Does anyone mention Breadwinner or Toei? Toyo? How about cutting out the middleman and going straight to Waterford? And for $4K? C'mon-- for $4K you can get a fully bespoke frame. Hell- you can buy a Singer or a Rene Herse for $4K. At the low end of the pricing scale, how about Soma? VO? Handsome?
Just in terms of pure performance there are A LOT of better bikes on the market. But let's make some fair comparisons-
Is the Roadeo a better (lugged steel) sport bike than the Torelli Delirio or the Serotta Colorado CS? Than a Bob Jackson or a Mondonico Monza?
Is the Atlantis reeeally a better touring bike than a Koga Traveller or a Thorn Nomad? A Miyata 618 or Trek Cirrus? Or- new, for the price- even an LHT?
And you'll answer: "But they're not Rivs." Precisely my point: Rivendells are subject to commodity fetishism of a type I find quite surprising; it's almost cult-like... The fascination with Rivs is an ardor for a specific object, an intoxication with a specific bicycle, not with how well that bike performs its role, or even how it's made or looks. With a Riv, you're also buying into GP's philosophy on life- it comes fully equipped with Nervex lugs AND a meta-narrative; no other bike can offer it's owners so much.
Btw, don't take my critique the wrong way- I don't mind Rivs; I just find their owners a tad overbearing at times, like when the J-Dubs & Hare Krishnas try to sell you a religion.
Beautiful! That crankset's a real stunner.
Here's my oddball 650b Panasonic (same vintage as your Mk 1); semi-custom frame & (eventually) full-custom paint; when fully built- and very nicely kitted out- this bike will clock in at $200 LESS than a stock Hillborne frameset. Behind it, my 650b Trek 820 (orig. $90), and my XO-3 (orig. $300).
Looking forward to seeing your 650b Panasonic when you are done with your build!
#45
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Well, I own a Riv. A. Homer Hilsen and think its a great bike. I ride it all the time. In my mind it was money well spent. The Riv. lifestyle/fetishism is the same type of thing in my mind, as the people who only like Campy or only like Italian/French/Vintage bikes etc. People identify with things and that is what inspires them. I have no problem with that.
On this list, there is a very strong identification with value. Spending a little and getting a lot. A Riv seems the antithesis of this for many here. No big deal. People have different opinions and different likes. I feel the Riv was a good value because I sold a bunch of bikes I had picked up off of craigslist & ebay over the years, that all had some amount duplication. The Riv. replaced them all and I don't miss them. I ride more and wrench less, which works for me.
When I bought my frame from Riv., I had many interactions with GP on the phone and via e-mail. He was always really nice, helpful and generally loved to talk bikes. We discussed the frame I was buying and how I was going build it, use it and anything pertaining to C&V I brought up. He helped me identify two Ritchey bikes that I had and was genuinely interested in helping me, even trying to contact Tom Ritchey on my behalf (Tom was out of the country at the time). He seems to take a lot of s*it on the interweb for having an opinion ( I guess that comes with the territory) but I though he was a nice guy and enjoyed talking to him.. YMMV
On this list, there is a very strong identification with value. Spending a little and getting a lot. A Riv seems the antithesis of this for many here. No big deal. People have different opinions and different likes. I feel the Riv was a good value because I sold a bunch of bikes I had picked up off of craigslist & ebay over the years, that all had some amount duplication. The Riv. replaced them all and I don't miss them. I ride more and wrench less, which works for me.
When I bought my frame from Riv., I had many interactions with GP on the phone and via e-mail. He was always really nice, helpful and generally loved to talk bikes. We discussed the frame I was buying and how I was going build it, use it and anything pertaining to C&V I brought up. He helped me identify two Ritchey bikes that I had and was genuinely interested in helping me, even trying to contact Tom Ritchey on my behalf (Tom was out of the country at the time). He seems to take a lot of s*it on the interweb for having an opinion ( I guess that comes with the territory) but I though he was a nice guy and enjoyed talking to him.. YMMV
#46
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And if you read it more carefully I think it's clear that he is not saying his way is the only way, but rather presenting an alternative to the vast majority of people in the US (not including those here in C&V) who think that riding a bike has to involve lycra, carbon, etc. and is only for workouts or racing.
#47
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Not too bad. Two days, two pages, poor guy asks a simple question comparing a Rivendell product to another, pages of GP rants follow. I don't know about other Riv owners but I disagree with a lot of things GP says and does, but I sure do love my Hunqapillar.
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The only part of these back and forth GP threads that I like is, I have an old Bridgestone X0-2 and maybe they will help to keep/boost its value if I ever decide to sell it.
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Yep. It'd be nice if people could separate the bikes (which is what the OP asked about) from the man. The bikes, IMHO, are very nice, though pricey. One way to split the difference between Riv and vintage is to buy a used Riv (assuming you can find one). I picked up my Atlantis a few years ago as a used frameset for less than half of what a new one would have cost me. Sure, it had a few marks here and there, but the bike was made to be ridden, after all.
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Here is an alternative to your Atlantis from a company that have made hardcore touring bikes for a lot of years. I do own a bike from Co-Motion and I can attest to product quality, made in America and the good people who ran it when I bought mine.
Co-Motion Pangea
Co-Motion Pangea
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Vintage, modern, e-road. It is a big cycling universe.
Vintage, modern, e-road. It is a big cycling universe.