Behold the abject horror: my first frame (in progress)
#1
Newbie
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 39
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 18 Times
in
11 Posts
Behold the abject horror: my first frame (in progress)
Yes! I have decided to finally try to build a frame. It is going well so far ... in that I have not yet blown our house sky high or sliced my face off. I'm nothing like the kind of fabricator folks in here are, but I want to finish even if the finished product is worth only its scrap value.
I don't see too many build threads so hopefully this isn't something that's taboo. Sorry if so.
Anyway! To start, Matt Bowns of 18 Bikes was kind enough to do a design for me. I don't have BikeCAD and I don't really know anything about geometry anyway, so that was super helpful. (attached).
And here's a photo of where we stand so far:
I don't see too many build threads so hopefully this isn't something that's taboo. Sorry if so.
Anyway! To start, Matt Bowns of 18 Bikes was kind enough to do a design for me. I don't have BikeCAD and I don't really know anything about geometry anyway, so that was super helpful. (attached).
And here's a photo of where we stand so far:
Last edited by jhodgson; 12-20-20 at 09:50 AM.
Likes For jhodgson:
#2
Randomhead
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Happy Valley, Pennsylvania
Posts: 24,386
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked 3,687 Times
in
2,510 Posts
Thanks for posting this, I love build threads, there haven't been enough. Once I start building I don't stop to take enough pictures, and it's a shame.
Likes For unterhausen:
#3
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 954
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 321 Post(s)
Liked 263 Times
in
212 Posts
Great to see a build thread! Looks like a nice classic design of frame.
I am quite jealous of your welding table. You can probably fixture everything up on there without needing a jig.
I am quite jealous of your welding table. You can probably fixture everything up on there without needing a jig.
#4
Newbie
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 39
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 18 Times
in
11 Posts
I have cobbled together some wood based tube blocks I could maybe use for "fixturing" although their likely precision is.... questionable to say the least.
#5
Randomhead
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Happy Valley, Pennsylvania
Posts: 24,386
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked 3,687 Times
in
2,510 Posts
If you don't want to go all the way to an Alex Meade fixturing setup for a table, you might consider Paragon blocks, which are not that expensive and dimensionally accurate.
#6
Newbie
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 39
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 18 Times
in
11 Posts
They were out of the sizes I wanted last time I looked, I guess because of everyone doing COVID bike projects just like me. Appears they are back in now, somewhat.
My plan for this project is to get through it on the cheap as much as possible to have the experience of building a frame.
I have a tendency to buy lots of tools which is fun but not financially sound, especially since all my work, like a lot of folks', more or less did a nose dive into the toilet back in April.
#7
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 954
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 321 Post(s)
Liked 263 Times
in
212 Posts
The precision on your wooden blocks is likely fine. If you can set things up to within a mm or so that's good enough. But it is useful to have a flat surface which yours probably is if you're using it to lay out the whole frame.
But I don't know how it works with lugs anyway. You presumably can't tack it with the TIG because it all needs to be covered in flux before the tubes are inserted.
But I don't know how it works with lugs anyway. You presumably can't tack it with the TIG because it all needs to be covered in flux before the tubes are inserted.
#8
Newbie
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 39
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 18 Times
in
11 Posts
The precision on your wooden blocks is likely fine. If you can set things up to within a mm or so that's good enough. But it is useful to have a flat surface which yours probably is if you're using it to lay out the whole frame.
But I don't know how it works with lugs anyway. You presumably can't tack it with the TIG because it all needs to be covered in flux before the tubes are inserted.
But I don't know how it works with lugs anyway. You presumably can't tack it with the TIG because it all needs to be covered in flux before the tubes are inserted.
#10
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: EagleRiver AK
Posts: 1,306
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 28 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 60 Times
in
33 Posts
The precision on your wooden blocks is likely fine. If you can set things up to within a mm or so that's good enough. But it is useful to have a flat surface which yours probably is if you're using it to lay out the whole frame.
But I don't know how it works with lugs anyway. You presumably can't tack it with the TIG because it all needs to be covered in flux before the tubes are inserted.
But I don't know how it works with lugs anyway. You presumably can't tack it with the TIG because it all needs to be covered in flux before the tubes are inserted.
https://www.cycledesignusa.com/pin-k...famous-pin-kit
Last edited by GrayJay; 12-23-20 at 06:22 PM.
Likes For GrayJay:
#11
Randomhead
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Happy Valley, Pennsylvania
Posts: 24,386
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked 3,687 Times
in
2,510 Posts
The pins are always left, AFAIK. Stabbed myself too many times trying to fix a pinned frame.
#12
framebuilder
The reason frames were pinned in the classic era was because they were hearth brazed with a huge natural gas flame augmented by a squirrel cage pushing air into the flame to increase its heat. It predates when oxyacetylene torches became available. I actually learned how to do this when I was learning in England in 1975. We hung the frame over fire bricks surrounding the joint. This firehose size flame would more evenly heat the joint to minimize alignment issues. The pins would mechanically hold the tubes in position. The reason it is done today is a method of trying to hold alignment. This requires that the frame be held in close alignment while pinning.
Even though I learned frame building by pinning, it is not a method I prefer today. Instead I spot braze the frame to hold it together (which wouldn't be possible with hearth brazing). This allows me micro micro alignment adjustments as I am going through my frame brazing sequence. With this method my framebuilding class students are able to hold a half mm or less of alignment accuracy. I don't hold the belief that for road bikes just being close is good enough, Of course there is a point of diminishing returns. A millionth of an inch is not better (or possible) than a thousandth of an inch. But if you are a couple or more mms out puts you in the mediocre category.
Even though I learned frame building by pinning, it is not a method I prefer today. Instead I spot braze the frame to hold it together (which wouldn't be possible with hearth brazing). This allows me micro micro alignment adjustments as I am going through my frame brazing sequence. With this method my framebuilding class students are able to hold a half mm or less of alignment accuracy. I don't hold the belief that for road bikes just being close is good enough, Of course there is a point of diminishing returns. A millionth of an inch is not better (or possible) than a thousandth of an inch. But if you are a couple or more mms out puts you in the mediocre category.
Likes For Doug Fattic:
#13
Newbie
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 39
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 18 Times
in
11 Posts
Got in some brazing practice today. Maybe not the prettiest but they're definitely stuck on there.
Definitely easier managing heat with the Victor j28 & 0 tip. I was using a full size torch before.
Opinions welcome!
Definitely easier managing heat with the Victor j28 & 0 tip. I was using a full size torch before.
Opinions welcome!
Likes For jhodgson:
#15
Team Beer
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Sacramento CA
Posts: 6,339
Bikes: Too Many
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 114 Post(s)
Liked 159 Times
in
104 Posts
Looks fine. I'm assuming you are using 56% silver, there is a little over filling of silver but nothing that can't be fixed by some file work.
__________________
I'm not one for fawning over bicycles, but I do believe that our bikes communicate with us, and what this bike is saying is, "You're an idiot." BikeSnobNYC
I'm not one for fawning over bicycles, but I do believe that our bikes communicate with us, and what this bike is saying is, "You're an idiot." BikeSnobNYC
#16
Senior Member
The first time I brazed up cable stops it surprised me how absolutely little filler was needed. Quickly learned to just touch and go to the next one. Looks like you have done them before. Doing good!
#18
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Seattle
Posts: 507
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 103 Post(s)
Liked 144 Times
in
88 Posts
Congratulations and thanks for posting ! Your heat control seems to be in the right range so that's a great start.
With braze ons, if I add filler along the tube axis, I have better luck minimizing the drops - and as mentioned by others, you won't need a lot of filler.
As you're cleaning up the inevitable drips, be careful with your file. From the picture above, it's hard to say whether the tube is compromised - and good job practicing! - but there are a couple spots where the file has cut into the tube. In general, you don't want your file to touch the tube when cleaning up.
Keep going just keep the file away from the tube. And keep posting pictures!
With braze ons, if I add filler along the tube axis, I have better luck minimizing the drops - and as mentioned by others, you won't need a lot of filler.
As you're cleaning up the inevitable drips, be careful with your file. From the picture above, it's hard to say whether the tube is compromised - and good job practicing! - but there are a couple spots where the file has cut into the tube. In general, you don't want your file to touch the tube when cleaning up.
Keep going just keep the file away from the tube. And keep posting pictures!
__________________
https://www.flickr.com/photos/54319503@N05/
https://www.draper-cycles.com
https://www.flickr.com/photos/54319503@N05/
https://www.draper-cycles.com
#19
Newbie
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 39
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 18 Times
in
11 Posts
Congratulations and thanks for posting ! Your heat control seems to be in the right range so that's a great start.
With braze ons, if I add filler along the tube axis, I have better luck minimizing the drops - and as mentioned by others, you won't need a lot of filler.
As you're cleaning up the inevitable drips, be careful with your file. From the picture above, it's hard to say whether the tube is compromised - and good job practicing! - but there are a couple spots where the file has cut into the tube. In general, you don't want your file to touch the tube when cleaning up.
Keep going just keep the file away from the tube. And keep posting pictures!
With braze ons, if I add filler along the tube axis, I have better luck minimizing the drops - and as mentioned by others, you won't need a lot of filler.
As you're cleaning up the inevitable drips, be careful with your file. From the picture above, it's hard to say whether the tube is compromised - and good job practicing! - but there are a couple spots where the file has cut into the tube. In general, you don't want your file to touch the tube when cleaning up.
Keep going just keep the file away from the tube. And keep posting pictures!
Thank you!
Likes For jhodgson:
#20
Randomhead
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Happy Valley, Pennsylvania
Posts: 24,386
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked 3,687 Times
in
2,510 Posts
avoiding cutting into the tube is why I hate filing. I think I would have left it unfiled. You don't need a fillet around those things.
Likes For jhodgson:
#22
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 20,305
Mentioned: 130 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3464 Post(s)
Liked 2,827 Times
in
1,995 Posts
The reason frames were pinned in the classic era was because they were hearth brazed with a huge natural gas flame augmented by a squirrel cage pushing air into the flame to increase its heat. It predates when oxyacetylene torches became available. I actually learned how to do this when I was learning in England in 1975. We hung the frame over fire bricks surrounding the joint. This firehose size flame would more evenly heat the joint to minimize alignment issues. The pins would mechanically hold the tubes in position. The reason it is done today is a method of trying to hold alignment. This requires that the frame be held in close alignment while pinning.
Even though I learned frame building by pinning, it is not a method I prefer today. Instead I spot braze the frame to hold it together (which wouldn't be possible with hearth brazing). This allows me micro micro alignment adjustments as I am going through my frame brazing sequence. With this method my framebuilding class students are able to hold a half mm or less of alignment accuracy. I don't hold the belief that for road bikes just being close is good enough, Of course there is a point of diminishing returns. A millionth of an inch is not better (or possible) than a thousandth of an inch. But if you are a couple or more mms out puts you in the mediocre category.
Even though I learned frame building by pinning, it is not a method I prefer today. Instead I spot braze the frame to hold it together (which wouldn't be possible with hearth brazing). This allows me micro micro alignment adjustments as I am going through my frame brazing sequence. With this method my framebuilding class students are able to hold a half mm or less of alignment accuracy. I don't hold the belief that for road bikes just being close is good enough, Of course there is a point of diminishing returns. A millionth of an inch is not better (or possible) than a thousandth of an inch. But if you are a couple or more mms out puts you in the mediocre category.
#23
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 20,305
Mentioned: 130 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3464 Post(s)
Liked 2,827 Times
in
1,995 Posts
in the future, consider sacrificial tape to manage tube scaring.
#25
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: EagleRiver AK
Posts: 1,306
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 28 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 60 Times
in
33 Posts
For this braze-on joint, I would probably concentrate more flame heat into the actual shifter boss, less into the tube. The molten braze will "follow the heat" and get pulled underneath the braze-on leaving less mess on the tube. Plumbers sandpaper cloth roll will do a good job for the final cleanup of a joint like this on round tube without file scarring of the tube .