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seeking aluminum braze-on downtube shifter bosses

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seeking aluminum braze-on downtube shifter bosses

Old 12-04-22, 04:20 PM
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seeking aluminum braze-on downtube shifter bosses

If not the ones that go side by side, I would like even more a set that is aero style, that sits on top the downtube instead of flanking it.

Is this a thing?

I'm probably not using the right terminology when I say braze. Is aluminum brazed? It TIG welded the proper term?

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Old 12-04-22, 04:25 PM
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Yes!!! Where are they? Very much needed in aluminum. I have always wanted to AlumaBraze aluminum friction shifter bosses on to a handle bar stem..



Well worth looking up on youtube: "Best No Welder Aluminum Welding Rods? Alumiweld vs Bernzomatic vs Hobart"
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Old 12-04-22, 06:45 PM
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Nova has some listed, but they are sold out. No pictures either. https://cycle-frames.com/products/20...aluminum-frame

Every aluminum part:
https://cycle-frames.com/collections...luminum?page=1

Ceeway has some. They are at the bottom of this page, Art. 298. You have to ask for pricing/shipping
https://www.ceeway.com/Aluminum%20Al...20Titanium.htm
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Old 12-04-22, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by unterhausen
Nova has some listed, but they are sold out. No pictures either. https://cycle-frames.com/products/20...aluminum-frame

Every aluminum part:
https://cycle-frames.com/collections...luminum?page=1

Ceeway has some. They are at the bottom of this page, Art. 298. You have to ask for pricing/shipping
https://www.ceeway.com/Aluminum%20Al...20Titanium.htm
I worked at a place that made Ti frames, and we used those art.298 bosses on the road frames. You just drill a hole through the downtube (both sides) and the 298 bits thread into themselves. We used Loctite on them, never had a problem. I thought of it as a little cheesy until I saw a couple Merlin Ti frames that broke right at the welded-on bosses, and heard of several others as well, maybe the #1 place Merlins were known to break. I'd rather have a "cheesy" bolt-on boss than an elegant weleded-on boss that makes the DT break!

Merlin was probably welding them on without an argon purge inside, so welded ones (done right) don't normally make the frame break.

Anyway all this talk of Ti is off-topic, you're talking about alu frame. So your choices are more whether to use this screw-on type (which we got from Cannondale BTW, not from England), or a glued and/or riveted-on type. I don't think anyone welds them on, in alu. (Someone will let me know if that's wrong.) Glued-and-riveted could be a good way, but you'd need to find the parts, and I don't know where to find those.

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Old 12-04-22, 08:17 PM
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thank you for the thoughtful reply. Always appreciate your insight.

I'm actually looking to attach to an aluminum stem, either 3ttt or Cinelli. I don't think a bolt going all the way through would work, but, some River-Nuts and sand down those bits might work.

Robert
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Old 12-04-22, 10:47 PM
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RivNuts are rivets WRT how they are secured in place. So if one files/sands down the exposed lip you remove ability for the RiveNut to be a rivet. Although there will likely be enough friction between the remaining RivNut body and the tube to keep all in place for the assembly of the bosses, at least for the first tine... Andy
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Old 12-07-22, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by bulgie
I worked at a place that made Ti frames, and we used those art.298 bosses on the road frames. You just drill a hole through the downtube (both sides) and the 298 bits thread into themselves.

Mark B
I have noticed on a couple Erickson frames that you can see through the DT through the shifter bosses. Do you think he used these bosses on steel? I hadn't considered those bosses and always wondered why he would drill through the DT there.
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Old 12-07-22, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by duanedr
I have noticed on a couple Erickson frames that you can see through the DT through the shifter bosses. Do you think he used these bosses on steel? I hadn't considered those bosses and always wondered why he would drill through the DT there.
No, with these Ceeway art.298 bosses (which are probably the same as the ones Nova sells and what Cannondale used to use), you can't see through, because there's an M5 threaded stud in the center holding the R and L bosses together. That's where the strength comes from, they wouldn't stay attached if you just glued them, with no threaded stud joining them in the center.

I don't know why Glenn drilled his, and I don't think he did that back when I worked for him ('79 to '83). But it might be so you can chase them with a taper tap, i.e. if you didn't have a bottoming tap? Though a plug tap will normally suffice for those, they don't need threads all the way down to the bottom.

I once watched as an idiot mechanic removed the shifter braze-on from a new expensive Italian frame, by chasing with a taper tap. When the pointy end of the tap hits the downtube, it starts peeling the tube away from the braze-on, from the center-out. Even a properly-brazed boss cannot withstand the forces generated — it's an efficient "extractor" for those type bosses. Can you imagine being that bone-headed, feeling that resistance but nevertheless you just keep on tapping? It boggles the mind. And this guy had a reputation as a serious pro mechanic.

Drilling through just to allow easier tapping seems a bit weird, I wouldn't do it myself, but I'm not going to second-guess Glenn, who was a fantastic framebuilder. Maybe he had some other reason.

Sadly you can't ask him now, or you maybe could but he won't remember. He's in assisted living, a place that specializes in memory issues. He's pretty far gone, which breaks my heart, he was such an influence on me and a good friend.

I'll throw in a gratuitous Erickson bike-porn shot here just so we can remember better times.



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Old 12-09-22, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by bulgie
Sadly you can't ask him now, or you maybe could but he won't remember. He's in assisted living, a place that specializes in memory issues. He's pretty far gone, which breaks my heart, he was such an influence on me and a good friend.

Mark B
A few years ago, I talked to Galen about his father. My uncle was suffering from the same disease. I wish I had met him.

There was a piece done on him in Hot Tubes or one of the magazine builder showcases - maybe even the picture you posted - and that really is the thing that elevated my preference for custom bikes. Until then it was a Paramount hanging in the back room of my first bike shop job in '78. The head mechanic was a racer. It had these weird 'tubular' tires and such dainty parts. For a 12yo bmx kid, it was very foreign, and I spent many hours staring at it.
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Old 12-14-22, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Robvolz
thank you for the thoughtful reply. Always appreciate your insight.

I'm actually looking to attach to an aluminum stem, either 3ttt or Cinelli. I don't think a bolt going all the way through would work, but, some River-Nuts and sand down those bits might work.

Robert
how much will drilling a Stem for rivnuts impact stem strength? stems are something I don't want failing
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Old 12-14-22, 01:34 PM
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I'm not sure RivNuts are made long enough to set in the thick walls a hollow Al stem hopefully has. But Al stems have had holes for various things for years (like front brake cable routing or lighting wires) and the stories about their failures are few (this over many millions of bikes made over many decades).

At one time stem mounted shifters (using clamps, not direct bolted into a threaded hole) were very common. These days the new offerings are mostly really cheap. Andy
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Old 12-14-22, 01:59 PM
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I always wondered why some of the vintage European stems were known as death stems. I don't think I have seen a broken one of those. Certainly I've seen more than my share of broken modern faceplates
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Old 12-14-22, 04:20 PM
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My local have-it-all hardware store "WINK'S" in Portland has different lengths.

Another thing I have done; put a little JB weld on a q-tip and spread some on the inside of the hole. My biggest fear is a RIVNUT spinning and can't be undone like the license plate rivets on the tailgate of my SUV.

Grrrr.

I don't think one lil hole will have any effect of strength.

Robert
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Old 12-14-22, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Robvolz
I don't think one lil hole will have any effect of strength.
Sorry to quibble, but yes it will. Probably what you mean is "it'll still be strong enough" and maybe it will, but I have my doubts. It's not a small hole, relative to the 7/8" diameter of the quill.

Unless you were talking about placing it elsewhere on the stem, like in the extension, not the quill? That might be marginally safer if it's in an over-built part of the stem, but it depends on where and how.

I question why you'd use a riv-nut, which requires a much larger hole, versus just drilling and tapping the stem metal. Not owning a tap maybe? If that's it, I'd say that's false economy, given the very high stakes in the event of a stem snapping off.

The critical crack length, where a fatigue crack stops growing slowly and the rest of the uncracked metal snaps off catastrophically, is small for aluminum. You can't necessarily depend on being able to spot the fatigue crack in time. Most likely, the first notice you'll get is flying off the bike, with the handlebars still in your hands.

Apologies if you're an engineer or top machinist and you've done all the calculations and testing needed to do this safely. I don't know you, so I am assuming no special knowledge on your part, out of an abundance of caution, not as an insult.

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Old 12-14-22, 05:26 PM
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I've never even played on on TV.

My thought process is: Aluminum is a soft material and could easily rip out. Water Bottles brackets us rivets in aluminum bike frames so why not?

I get your response, worried that a small hole could cost the stem its integrity, but rivets do come in more than one size and I was thinking rather small.

Robert
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Old 12-14-22, 05:28 PM
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A rivnut might be okay if your hole quality is good. Mine never is. So I'm with Mark, just tap and thread the hole.
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Old 12-14-22, 08:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Robvolz
I've never even played on on TV.

My thought process is: Aluminum is a soft material and could easily rip out. Water Bottles brackets us rivets in aluminum bike frames so why not?

I get your response, worried that a small hole could cost the stem its integrity, but rivets do come in more than one size and I was thinking rather small.

Robert
The often described failure mode of an Al tube (hollow stem in this case) is one of fatigue cracks continuing to grow quickly. Not a pulling through of a nut or fastener (rims are one exception to this, nipple pull throughs are quite heard of). If I have my material qualities right this is the difference between yield strength and fatigue limits for any one material. A very small stress that is well below the yield strength of the Al will lead to a failure in a limited number of stress cycles. Especially so is a focus of the stress is in play (rough edges, threads, sharp corners). Andy
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Old 12-31-22, 05:08 PM
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So which is better of the two evils?

1, Tapping a hole, and worried that threading the bolt will create stress fractures.

or

2, drilling a slightly larger hole and installing a riv nut
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Old 01-01-23, 03:06 AM
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Originally Posted by robvolz
so which is better of the two evils?

1, tapping a hole, and worried that threading the bolt will create stress fractures.

Or

2, drilling a slightly larger hole and installing a riv nut
1.
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Old 01-07-23, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by unterhausen
I always wondered why some of the vintage European stems were known as death stems. I don't think I have seen a broken one of those. Certainly I've seen more than my share of broken modern faceplates
AFAIK it was only stems made by AVA (possibly not all but maybe one model in particular ?) which was referred as the death stem(s) ... and with good reasons.
There’s one here :https://forum.tontonvelo.com/viewtop...33911&start=30
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Old 01-07-23, 07:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Claude.fr
AFAIK it was only stems made by AVA (possibly not all but maybe one model in particular ?) which was referred as the death stem(s) ... and with good reasons.
There’s one here :https://forum.tontonvelo.com/viewtop...33911&start=30
And here I had believed it was the hollow Pivo stems that were called "death Stems" We would joke about a death stem being installed in a death fork (Lambert/Viscount) and how two negatives might cancel each other out Andy
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Old 01-08-23, 07:58 AM
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I didn't see a crack on that ava stem. Did the handlebar clamps break? I hve never previously seen a Simplex dérailleur noir et blanc
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Old 01-08-23, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by unterhausen
I didn't see a crack on that ava stem. Did the handlebar clamps break? I hve never previously seen a Simplex dérailleur noir et blanc
Apparently, no first hand experience, I have a bike with a AVA in mint condition, they didn’t crack but broke.
(clamp ?).
On mine, that massive bolt which runs across the clamp nut require a size 12 spanner.

For the record, the alternator belt tensioner on a contemporary Renault had the exact same nut&bolt but shorter also 12, which you tightened generously.

How many amateurish self improvised bike mechanic, who routinely changed their alternator belt themselves, over tightened that bolt ?

Mine is like this one : https://www.ebay.fr/itm/194917475713...=&toolid=10050
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Old 01-08-23, 02:40 PM
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Simplex did offer some of their lower cost parts in a white plastic. First time I saw one I initially thought that it was REALLY dried out, the black nylon will off gas (or so I have been told) and slowly loose the deep black. When I see this on repairs I apply oil to the surface. This makes it look better but the deeper color doesn't last long. At least with the imaged white ones the ft der body hasn't cracked at the seat tune clamping thread insert.

As to the broken quill wedge bolt (I think that is what was described) they do break although not a common issue. What is more often mentioned is the expanding bottom type of design (as opposed to the more common sliding on an angle design) can have two issues. One is that the steerer sees a very focused expanding force and the steerer can develop a bulge from the stem's being over tightened. The other is that the stem bottom is split into two halves that get spread by the conical wedge. These "halves" can crack and separate from the rest of the stem. Andy
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Old 01-08-23, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart
And here I had believed it was the hollow Pivo stems that were called "death Stems" We would joke about a death stem being installed in a death fork (Lambert/Viscount) and how two negatives might cancel each other out Andy

Could be both, AVA and Pivo ?

Somebody wanted to change their handle bar ....
Brutal force, two left hands, result : one broken stem clamp.
(see pix)

Found an old clunker with matching stem, you’d expect that person would have learnt, Nope.
Broke clunker stem, too.
One handle bar change, two broken stems.
** head bang desk**.

Then, they say old French bike stems are fragile.

Would a death stem + death fork + suicide derailleur + suicide vélo so-called “routier**” brakes (drop bar brakes with side levers) cancel each other out ?
https://forum.velotaf.com/index.php?...ttach_id=11835

** Routier (un) [antiquated, obsolete] : French blue collar bicycle, circa 1950-1960 with steel drop bars, classic road brake levers with side levers, 3 or 5 speed, top tube shifter, rear and front racks, fenders with lights (x2) “powered” by bottle dynamo, steel rims 650b or 700.
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