Harold74

My thoughts on that:

1) I'm a big Greg fan and also lament the way that situation played out for him. So much so that I have an active thread in the valuation forum right now where I'm considering buying a Zurich. That, partially, as a show of support for Greg.

2) I worry that Greg's initial Lance criticisms may have been substantially motivated by professional jealously. I think that it may have bothered Greg to be eclipsed by another American so soon after his own accomplishments. To this day, Greg's branding is still very much "the only true American TDF champion". Which he may, in fact, be.

3) Most of what I've consumed regarding the Greg / Lance era leads me to suspect that Greg was also doping, just doping differently and less effectively than Lance based on what was available at the time. Obviously, if that's the case, then there is hypocrisy at play.

4) Once Greg had Lance backed into a corner and in self preservation mode, the outcome was predictable (at least in hind sight). Greg certainly did not deserve what happened to him. I do think that he could have avoided much of it by being more strategic however.

_ForceD_

I’m with the “I’m not gonna spend 2½ hours watching what I may already know” crowd. Like many of us who’ve been following cycling since before LA came up through triathlon ranks as a youth…it’s probably all been covered. I suggest the OP post notes from this podcast and we can discuss them.

Dan

BillyD

Heh, there's always a couple.

My mom used to always say, about critics, "you can please some of the people some of the time, but you will never please all the people all the time." Thanks to her I've never been one to waste a lot of energy arguing with people, especially with strangers on the internet.

BillyD

Yeah, that McGwire feller too.

LesterOfPuppets

And the Houston Astros!

livedarklions

Being the best of the cheaters in an era of rampant cheating does not mean that someone was actually the best cyclist of his era. Obviously, that assumes that the best cyclists cheated, and there is no way of knowing whether the best cyclists actually were the ones who were unwilling to cheat. Secondly, we're just assuming that Lance would have been better than the other cheaters had there been no cheating. That assumption is groundless as we know there are likely reasons that some people will get better results from PED than others, and the medical teams also had varying abilities to administer effective regimens while evading detection.

It's absolutely impossible to consider LA's "accomplishments" separate from the fact of his rampant cheating, and once someone's "win at any costs" extends to actually engaging in the tactics of personal destruction of other people through criminal means, I don't want to pretend that's just the "attitude" of a champion.

veganbikes

Damn, you hit real hard. You brought Lance into the ring and hit him below the belt in his one ball.

badger1

Thanks for the clarification, BillyD!

livedarklions

No idea why #2 and #4 say anything exonerating about LA's completely psychopathic behavior towards GL, and #3 really is kind of despicable on your part. As far as I know, your "suspicions" are groundless, and that's really the "whataboutism" type crap LA pulled to discredit GL and get him fired.

#4 is basically saying that GL should have kept his mouth shut when everything that came out later made clear he was 100% correct about what was going on because he should have known what an immoral POS LA was. I cannot fathom why you would think that was an answer to my statement that I'm not forgiving LA for his treatment of GL...

livedarklions

McGwire and Sosa were well-liked by their teammates, Bonds never got along with anyone. His college teammates actually voted to kick him off the team and were disappointed when he wasn't.

Ogsarg

I would have to agree that Lance was probably the best in an era rampant with PED use just as Barry Bonds in my opinion was by far the best hitter in baseball in an era rampant with PED abuse amongst hitters and pitchers.

But what about all the cyclists who couldn't even participate at the highest level because they refused PED's? Or the forgotten ones that always finished far behind the doped up leaders? I'm sure there were a lot of them who were told they would not be competitive without drugs but resisted anyway. Those people are the reason that Lance's achievements should not be honored and that Bonds should not be in the HOF.

livedarklions

THIS!

Honestly, I think it's like honoring the financial accomplishments of Bernie Madoff. The cheaters stole glory at the expense of untold others.

Germany_chris

The pro peloton has never been clean nor will it ever be, it’ll take the testing folks a while to catch up to the new drugs

PeteHski

I believe it is a LOT cleaner today than ever. Of course there will be some cheaters lurking around, but I think the culture has genuinely changed for the better.

It would be unfairly cynical to state that modern pros are routinely cheating, just because the previous generations were. Not without hard, proven evidence at least.

shelbyfv

It's always good to know the forum rules, published or not! The prevalence of mechanical threads left in General made me suspect that keeping things in the appropriate sub forum was no longer a priority. Maybe it will be more fun this way. Like reaching blindly into a box of chocolates, never know what you'll get!

Jughed

IMHO - that's where the line between Olympic and professional sports should be drawn. College vs pro as well.

Olympics/college sports should be based on pure talent... free from the pressures of money and doping and no professionals allowed.

Professional sports are 100% driven by money and results. They are for show, for entertainment - and profits. Do the best drivers drive F1? Or do the drivers that will make the most money for the team, and in many cases come with backing money, end up as the drivers? You don't see a bunch of ugly, unpresentable race car drivers bopping around out there. They are all generally good looking, well spoken, marketable individuals - because the sport is about money.

Kapusta

Yeah, that's what I was thinking.

Being the best at cheating and ruining other peoples' livelihoods for your own personal gain is not something I find worthy of honor or respect.

Atlas Shrugged

You can rest assured there are billions of dollars at stake in the Olympics or College Sports. Only with your model, the athlete will get none of it; not sure how that helps anyone.

livedarklions

Strictly amateur was, of course, the old system in the Olympics, and it was a completely ridiculous, infinitely manipulable standard. Remember the earnest, clean amateur athletes of East Germany?

wayold

Whatever you think about LA's behavior while competing he has a lot of knowledge about the sport and is very good at relating that info through podcasts, interviews, etc. Hate him all you want, but I've gotten a lot out of listening to what he says.

Carbonfiberboy 

The OP was being ironic. I do that sometimes just for giggles. The most fun thing about this thread so far is that those who listened to the podcast have interesting things to say, in contrast to the religious fervor and lack of content in the earlier posts.

Some things which aren't usually commented on:
Lance's amazing ability to not lose much muscle mass during GTs. His ability to recover was amazing. He had to lose 7 kilos of protein prepping for his comeback.
His ability to not wind up in the wrong place in a race. Planning and foresight, or just good luck?
His skills in bike handling and somehow avoiding road hazards. I noticed that these skills or his luck seemed to evaporate during his comeback. His mental ability wasn't what it was, or was that a result of drugging or just the confidence that came with the drugging?

MaxKatt

Regarding OP... Requiring the world to listen to 2.5 hour video and comment on nothing else until they do so is a tall order. I just skipped that.

I was having fun with the guy being critical of OP's writing, while at the same time using "good" instead of "well." Pet peeve of mine.

Koyote

You did not grasp that I was having fun with the OP's syntactical error, which was using "good" instead of "well" -- even though I quoted it in my post.

People who miss the obvious are a pet peeve of mine.

Koyote

A few well done studies* have concluded that some very highly paid professional athletes are among the most exploited (in absolute dollar amounts) workers in our economy, as measured by the difference between the revenue they generate (for teams and sponsors) vs their incomes. I see no reason to believe that high level non-professional athletes would be any different, but I haven't seen such analyses.

*I read these quite a few years ago...In some sports, it's possible that rising salaries have narrowed the gaps a bit.

CAT7RDR

I find it troubling that Greg LeMond would get lumped into a logical guilt by association fallacy that "they all were dopers therefore he is one too."
After 40+ years, if he did cheat using PED's, there would be compelling evidence to support this claim.