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Training Status??? (IV)

Old 02-08-18, 09:08 PM
  #11001  
TheKillerPenguin
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You just need to take the numbers with a grain of salt is all. They're not useless, they're just not gospel.

A real world use case may be like, doing 10x30sec with 2min recoveries. You can use the NP number over the set to track progress when you do the same workout sometime in the future. For a kitchen sink kind of ride you just sorta have to go with the flow though and kinda shrug and be like "yeah that seems about right".
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Old 02-08-18, 09:19 PM
  #11002  
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Think I did the the hardest workout of my build up to race season today. 3 sets of 7x80 seconds at 125%. 40 seconds rest between interval. 10 second ramp into each. ****ing hurt. I had to take some extended rest and back pedals. My legs were NOT cooperating. Riding at the same power after the intervals for cool down and my HR was 30 BPM higher than it was yesterday in a recovery ride. Was damn near throwing up a few times. But we got through it.
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Old 02-08-18, 09:21 PM
  #11003  
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Originally Posted by burnthesheep View Post
I didn't write the book, but I bought it and use it. I assume the guys who wrote it know more than I do about it. But the "field test" is a best-of 2x8min.

Here it is in black/white:
Hmm. I haven't read that book. My knowledge is more from online reading and the Cyclist trainig bible + the trainer road blog posts. To calculate (approximately, remember everyone is different) FTP from a 2x8 test it's 90% of your best as long as the efforts are reasonably close to each other.

I'd say don't get too caught up in it. As long as you're hitting your power!
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Old 02-08-18, 09:26 PM
  #11004  
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My favorite ride like that that I did about a year ago. 118 TSS in 1:13 of riding. Looking at this, made me realize my power is almost 10% higher 11 months later living at altitude, That feels good.

Capture.PNG
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Old 02-08-18, 10:38 PM
  #11005  
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Originally Posted by jsk View Post
pretty much everybody else in the cycling world defines intensities relative to FTP, so most people will assume any percentage is relative to FTP.
Percentage of lab-tested VO2max is common in exercise physiology papers.
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Old 02-09-18, 10:19 AM
  #11006  
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Originally Posted by Ttoc6 View Post
My favorite ride like that that I did about a year ago. 118 TSS in 1:13 of riding. Looking at this, made me realize my power is almost 10% higher 11 months later living at altitude, That feels good.


Attachment 598745
How are you feeling about your Zone Distribution?
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Old 02-09-18, 12:26 PM
  #11007  
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more z2 on tap for today, just 60mins. Trying to get mentally ready for build next week and not get psyched out by testing. I'm going to give the trainerroad ramp test another go, I feel like I should be at 275w based on what my sweet spot work felt like based on 270, but we'll see. I weighed 161 yesterday, which is pretty awesome given I was at 175 in mid december, trying to be down at 154, which I had been when I was just doing a ton of just riding around outdoors a couple of years back.

Also was looking back on some rides on strava from July, and it's crazy to see how I was averaging something like 216w on intervals with HR in the 150-160s where lately I can do long intervals in the 250 range and keep the HR under 160. Really looking forward to seeing where I can go with doing some vo2 stuff coming up.
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Old 02-09-18, 12:55 PM
  #11008  
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Training has been **** lately. Been dealing with folliculitis for a little over a month now and am starting on an antibiotic tomorrow. Hoping that is the reason why my training is awful lately and I get SOMETHING in before racing starts in April.
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Old 02-09-18, 02:11 PM
  #11009  
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i also noticed that when i'm doing an interval, the lap average power is higher than the lap normalized power. that's impossible. that's another red flag for my garmin's np readout.

when i keep on going though, and the average power comes back down, the normalized power stays up. I noticed that even I coast for an extended period of time, and the average power absolutely tanks, the np stays up.. now I really want to know how that number is calculated..


when doing ftp tests and intervals, is the average power more useful than np?
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Old 02-09-18, 02:17 PM
  #11010  
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Originally Posted by spectastic View Post
i also noticed that when i'm doing an interval, the lap average power is higher than the lap normalized power. that's impossible. that's another red flag for my garmin's np readout.

when i keep on going though, and the average power comes back down, the normalized power stays up. I noticed that even I coast for an extended period of time, and the average power absolutely tanks, the np stays up.. now I really want to know how that number is calculated..


when doing ftp tests and intervals, is the average power more useful than np?
No it's not
https://help.trainingpeaks.com/hc/en...average-power-
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Old 02-09-18, 02:24 PM
  #11011  
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Originally Posted by Enthalpic View Post
oh thanks
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Old 02-09-18, 03:45 PM
  #11012  
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Today was ~90 minutes of JRA for active recovery. Bumped it up a bit cresting hills but nothing to write home about.

Originally Posted by Erzulis Boat View Post
How are you feeling about your Zone Distribution?
Much better for this time of year than last year. Last year I was racing collegiate from mid march until beginning of May. 3 races a weekend. So I came into the season with a big base and attempted to race into shape. I say attempted because there were some hickups in my race season last year (illness, got hit by car, mechanicals in races)

That said my FTP is just about on par with where it was at the beginning of the summer last year (before I moved to altitude), so I'm more than happy about that. Now if only I could weigh as much as I did before! But my workouts have gone well and I've seen great improvement, so I'm not gonna complain.
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Old 02-09-18, 04:49 PM
  #11013  
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Got up early, did 60 miles before work today.

Super nice out.
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my race videos
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Old 02-09-18, 04:51 PM
  #11014  
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Originally Posted by Ttoc6 View Post
Today was ~90 minutes of JRA for active recovery. Bumped it up a bit cresting hills but nothing to write home about.



Much better for this time of year than last year. Last year I was racing collegiate from mid march until beginning of May. 3 races a weekend. So I came into the season with a big base and attempted to race into shape. I say attempted because there were some hickups in my race season last year (illness, got hit by car, mechanicals in races)

That said my FTP is just about on par with where it was at the beginning of the summer last year (before I moved to altitude), so I'm more than happy about that. Now if only I could weigh as much as I did before! But my workouts have gone well and I've seen great improvement, so I'm not gonna complain.
Thanks. I have been looking a lot closer at my ZD lately, just getting some insight.
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Old 02-09-18, 05:24 PM
  #11015  
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Originally Posted by spectastic View Post
it was a lot more like climb a hill for 4-5 minutes. z1 for a period of time. stand around waiting for others. rinse repeat. there were 2 sprints.

so basically, the garmin np is pretty much useless for anything that's not a tempo or threshold ride?
If you're using TSS (which is based on NP) and all, the garmin is right. Again, that's cyclingpeaks software.

Strava just uses things differently.

I have no idea why you'd have discrepancies with training peaks, but my Garmin and WKO4 are always exactly the same.

Of course, as mentioned, you can totally fake NP to crazy heights, which is a reason I think it's an archaic and broken method of tracking training stress, but it seems it's all we have at the moment and most are familiar with it.
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Old 02-09-18, 05:29 PM
  #11016  
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Originally Posted by spectastic View Post
i also noticed that when i'm doing an interval, the lap average power is higher than the lap normalized power. that's impossible. that's another red flag for my garmin's np readout.
?
No it's not.

NP is based off of a 30 sec rolling average. If you're maintaining a tight wattage spread your np is going to be 30secs behind so is possible to be lower.

I've done that many a time.
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Old 02-09-18, 05:41 PM
  #11017  
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
If you're using TSS (which is based on NP) and all, the garmin is right. Again, that's cyclingpeaks software.

Strava just uses things differently.

I have no idea why you'd have discrepancies with training peaks, but my Garmin and WKO4 are always exactly the same.

Of course, as mentioned, you can totally fake NP to crazy heights, which is a reason I think it's an archaic and broken method of tracking training stress, but it seems it's all we have at the moment and most are familiar with it.
yea I'll probably just use np for the ride average from now on, and not worry about it during the ride. apparently anything less than 20 minutes is kind of worthless readout for np, unless maybe it's a steady state effort, in which case average lap power would suffice.
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Old 02-09-18, 05:52 PM
  #11018  
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Originally Posted by Enthalpic View Post
Percentage of lab-tested VO2max is common in exercise physiology papers.
Which is funny because most people prescribe vo2 max intervals as a percentage of ftp, which has so many issues that the dudes in the know went and developed a whole new modeling system because of the individual variability (110-130% seems to be the range).

Going out and doing 6x3 mins at actual 100% vo2 max is a helluva puke fest.
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Old 02-09-18, 08:25 PM
  #11019  
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Way too much chatter on here lately about the "accuracy" of TSS and NP. TSS isn't a great indicator of the performance-enhancing-quality of a workout and using NP for fitness testing is laughable (seriously average speed is probably better).

The whole TSS, ATL, CTL thing comes from Banister's TRIMP research - which was designed to model a PEAK of fitness (now TSB) over a relatively Short period.

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Old 02-09-18, 08:30 PM
  #11020  
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Also, you can't test a model against a model for accuracy - you need to test them both using real physical measurements.

Last edited by Enthalpic; 02-09-18 at 08:34 PM.
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Old 02-09-18, 08:42 PM
  #11021  
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
Another reason to trash that book.
Iím not an aspiring pro, Iím a nobody. I couldnít care less about that opinion.

Iíve got kids and ainít got 12 hrs a week.

What I do have is 5 to 8 a week, and itís worked so far.

Up 80w and down 25lbs in a year and a half. It has limits Iím willing to accept.

How about a 4.0w/kg in less than 2 years riding? As in from the couch to bike. With a target of 4.5 by end of this year. Not that impressive, but Iím not on the couch any longer.
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Old 02-09-18, 09:46 PM
  #11022  
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Originally Posted by burnthesheep View Post
Iím not an aspiring pro, Iím a nobody. I couldnít care less about that opinion.

Iíve got kids and ainít got 12 hrs a week.

What I do have is 5 to 8 a week, and itís worked so far.

Up 80w and down 25lbs in a year and a half. It has limits Iím willing to accept.

How about a 4.0w/kg in less than 2 years riding? As in from the couch to bike. With a target of 4.5 by end of this year. Not that impressive, but Iím not on the couch any longer.
I know you're """"new""" to the sport, but cycling seems to be a sport where a lot people you'll meet have strong opinions. Sometimes it's worth listening. Sometimes it's not. As with anything, don't get caught in an echo chamber of any one idea. Be broad and willing to learn. I've only been doing this for 5 years (3 years of actually training rather than just riding around), but I learn something new every race and everytime I meet someone new in the sport.

And your power numbers are good. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Everyone on the internet has a 6w/kg ftp and weighs 120 lbs with a 1500W sprint. (Including me if we ever race )
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Old 02-10-18, 07:26 AM
  #11023  
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Originally Posted by burnthesheep View Post
I’m not an aspiring pro, I’m a nobody. I couldn’t care less about that opinion.

I’ve got kids and ain’t got 12 hrs a week.

.

Nothing to do with any of that, nor anything do with any type of opinion. Actually to do with the fact that the author of that book doped juniors.

You've got kids and so do I. Imagine them being doped by him.

That and the crazy attempts to calculate long duration power from short duration efforts is silly.
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Old 02-10-18, 09:51 AM
  #11024  
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First real workout in a while was yesterday and it went pretty okay! Did 4x15 but broke them into 2 sets with 5min between efforts, and 15 between sets. Was able to increase watts each rep from 84 - 87%. Didn't feel as easy as usual but I've been laying really low for 3 weeks now, and trainer watts...

Backing off the intensity and getting in reasonably relaxed 3ish hr rides so my legs get used to pedaling and my chest is allowed to continue recovering. On the up and up!
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Old 02-10-18, 02:53 PM
  #11025  
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2hrs z2 97tss today. Weighed 160 so getting really close to my target!
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