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different rim makeup

Old 06-10-21, 02:59 PM
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justinschulz9
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different rim makeup

can someone explain to me what the difference in rim quality would be? i know this is a super general question. but why are some aluminum rims different from much more expensive rims like carbon or titanium. the more details the better.
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Old 06-11-21, 03:00 AM
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Originally Posted by justinschulz9
can someone explain to me what the difference in rim quality would be? i know this is a super general question. but why are some aluminum rims different from much more expensive rims like carbon or titanium. the more details the better.
Weight, strength, cost (the light, strong, cheap argument is key here) Different rims different purposes (MTB, tour, aero, general etc), Carbon rims are normally much more expensive than Alu, although this difference has decreased significantly over the last few years as carbon rims become much cheaper; for Titanium, these don't exist, as not the right material for this purpose in a commercially viable way.
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Old 06-11-21, 03:02 AM
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3D printing might bring us some interesting new rim tech...
​​​​​​
It'd be limited to ultra high end though, given the slow production rate.
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Old 06-11-21, 07:52 AM
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There have been TI rims before. I rode the Araya Titan Ace for a couple of years about 40 years ago. One of the nicest rolling rims I ever used but just don't try to stop in the rain! Worse then chromed steel. Andy
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Old 06-11-21, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart
There have been TI rims before. I rode the Araya Titan Ace for a couple of years about 40 years ago. One of the nicest rolling rims I ever used but just don't try to stop in the rain! Worse then chromed steel. Andy
I might be wrong, but I remember those rims as having been conventional aluminum with titanium-colored hard anodizing, just as various manufacturers did gray-anodized and (e.g., Mavic) dark-blue-anodized rims. All of the hard-anodized rims were terrible for braking in the rain.

Here's Jobst Brandt's take on Anodized vs. Non-anodized Rims. (No mention of titanium rims.)
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Old 06-11-21, 10:17 AM
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From a wheel builder's perspective, better quality rims appear to be more consistent geometrically and require less fiddling to get true after being laced. I built some early WTB rims ('Power Beam') in which every nipple sat a little differently than the others, and too a lot of work to get perfect even after all the spokes were evenly tensioned. I have also built wheels with Mavic rims and DT spokes where I laced them up and tightened all the nipples to a similar spot WRT their spoke's threads (by eye) and once I had tensioned the spokes they required very little effort to true or straighten.

Another aspect of rim quality is the quality of the alloy. I don't know if most of them are supposed to be nominally the same alloy, but there are definite differences in rim rigidity and also resistance to wear from brake pads. Synchros, in a previous incarnation of the company, made some supposedly good quality rims that normal brake pads shredded the braking surface in a few rides.

Lastly there are features that are generally only included on more expensive rims, like double spoke eyelets, welded seams, and machined brake tracks. Also the cheapet rims are generally a hollow channel ('single wall') while better quality rims have a box section construction (double wall)
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Old 06-11-21, 10:58 AM
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The problem with evaluating rims, is everything depends on how they will be used. It is true that cheaper rims tend to be more difficult to true, but cheaper and heavier rims will probably outlast more expensive and lighter rims.

A number of years ago I bought some inexpensive Sun rims. They were hard anodized 36 hole tandem rims; CRT16. Not high quality and not as consistently round. Admittedly they don’t get a lot of use these days, but they are so tough, I can’t imagine how long it would take to wear them out.

John
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Old 06-12-21, 12:32 PM
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Let's ask the question from a different perspective: assume you're a rim manufacturer, and you want to reduce costs to sell cheaper, what would you do?

1. Cheaper alloy and bar stock
2. Less quality control and higher tolerances for things like dimensions, drillings, weldings and joints.
3. Easier and faster processes for extruding and forming
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Old 06-12-21, 01:06 PM
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It would be nice if the mfgrs made it more obvious when the more expensive rims featured more strength, ruggedness and longevity verses fragile, precision
and fast most likely to being light weight etc. Many of us are not racers and care more about peace of mind and reliability than breaking speed records.

Some day I want to install a pair of solid tires on a heavy old school mountain bike. IF I won the lottery I would do away with the chain and get a geared
hub. I really dont much like to bike in areas where the walk home is more than fifteen miles wouldnt mind riding a "TANK".
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Old 06-12-21, 03:42 PM
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Different materials take different manufacturing methods. Some more costly. Some the skill set required means more costly labor.

Have you ever tried to form and drill titanium? You might think Ti is not that much difficult to drill, but the drill isn't going to last as long. So that drives up costs.

As for quality.... what quality are you talking about? Ability to be run over by a train and still function? To me quality is just that the manufacturer uses reasonable care to ensure each piece of the same model is the same as the other.
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Old 06-12-21, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by preventec47
It would be nice if the mfgrs made it more obvious when the more expensive rims featured more strength, ruggedness and longevity verses fragile, precision
and fast most likely to being light weight etc. Many of us are not racers and care more about peace of mind and reliability than breaking speed records.
More expensive these days typically means lighter, not stronger or longer lived. Even riders who are not racers and will never race, want to think they will be faster with lighter wheels. If you want strength and longevity, buy touring rims.

Originally Posted by preventec47
Some day I want to install a pair of solid tires on a heavy old school mountain bike.
Try it and tell us what you think. There have been numerous attempts to sell airless, "flat proof" bike tires and they have been so unpleasant to ride that even the most flat-adverse riders have given up on them.
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Old 06-12-21, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by HillRider
More expensive these days typically means lighter, not stronger or longer lived. Even riders who are not racers and will never race, want to think they will be faster with lighter wheels. If you want strength and longevity, buy touring rims.
.
I have never seen a rim represented as being a "touring" rim. I have seen I think "TOURING" bikes so I guess they have Touring rims. What are the unique characteristics of "TOURING" Rims ? Do you know of a couple of Rim mfgrs that feature a special "TOURING RIM" i dont even know what size rims are used
on TOURING BIKES
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Old 06-12-21, 06:24 PM
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Mavic for years offered their T series. Suitable for both tandems and touring. These rims had slightly wider widths, offered in 36 (and even 48) spoke holes, had fairly shallow heights but with their widths still had serious box section area. I've used various versions on a few single and two up bikes with pleasing results.

"Touring" has evolved over the years, just like sporting "performance" bikes have. But the basics still count. More spokes, more tire width capacity. Rim brake and (IMO) machined brake tracks, double walled (box), Presta valve hole (can be opened to SV), not aero depth/height. Andy
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Old 06-12-21, 08:14 PM
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I have a cool tandem mountain bike that is my pride and joy with 26" (559) wheels and hardly anyone is still making 26in rims these days. I dont know
of any. Yikes. I prefer riding it solo to any of my single bikes. No, not as fast but feels better riding somehow. I might need to start looking for
a set of replacement rims for future use.
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Old 06-12-21, 09:26 PM
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Originally Posted by justinschulz9
can someone explain to me what the difference in rim quality would be? i know this is a super general question. but why are some aluminum rims different from much more expensive rims like carbon or titanium. the more details the better.
Within aluminum, price can come down to production method (pinned vs. welded), construction (single, double or triple wall, eyelets), and material (which alloy). A welded rim with eyelets, double wall construction and a better quality alloy will cost more then a very basic, pinned single wall rim with no eyelets. Single wall will often be lighter then double but weaker due to the missing reinforcement of the extra wall, while at the same time using a cheaper alloy which can be heavier so that a higher quality double wall will be almost as light. All of these can play a role as can area of production. DT Swiss and Velocity can cost as much as an entry level carbon rim but being made in Europe or the US helps drive the price up as does the quality of the alloys.
As to carbon vs aluminum, key to the higher cost of carbon is the production method which requires laying down the material in the right manner or the wheel is ruined vs aluminum extrusion which is a cheaper production method.
Never seen a ti rim but difficulty in producing it and materials cost would drive the price up.
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Old 06-12-21, 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Trakhak
I might be wrong, but I remember those rims as having been conventional aluminum with titanium-colored hard anodizing, just as various manufacturers did gray-anodized and (e.g., Mavic) dark-blue-anodized rims. All of the hard-anodized rims were terrible for braking in the rain.

Here's Jobst Brandt's take on Anodized vs. Non-anodized Rims. (No mention of titanium rims.)
The Araya Tita-Ace rims that Andy mentioned actually were titanium.

Velobase listing:
VeloBase.com - Component: Araya Tita Ace Gold Titanium
NOS for sale:
NOS ARAYA TITA-ACE GOLD 32H RIM –PAIR- - alex's cycle (alexscycle.com)
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Old 06-12-21, 10:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Jeff Wills
The Araya Tita-Ace rims that Andy mentioned actually were titanium.

Velobase listing:
VeloBase.com - Component: Araya Tita Ace Gold Titanium
NOS for sale:
NOS ARAYA TITA-ACE GOLD 32H RIM –PAIR- - alex's cycle (alexscycle.com)
Your VeloBase link doesn’t work. But is unclear if the rims are actually titanium based on that link. I’m not saying they weren’t titanium. The information is confusing and I can’t find anything really definitive. They are roundly panned, however.


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Old 06-13-21, 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted by cyccommute
Your VeloBase link doesn’t work. But is unclear if the rims are actually titanium based on that link. I’m not saying they weren’t titanium. The information is confusing and I can’t find anything really definitive. They are roundly panned, however.
Yeah, Velobase has been flaky for months. I blame Bill Gates and the Russian hackers. So there.

Thanks for pointing out that the Velobase listing says they're aluminum . What they're really made of... I dunno.
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Old 06-16-21, 02:04 PM
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dang

dang yall are awesome.!!
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Old 06-16-21, 09:25 PM
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Originally Posted by justinschulz9
dang yall are awesome.!!
We'll be here all week! Try the veal...
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Old 06-17-21, 06:44 AM
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Originally Posted by cyccommute
But is unclear if the rims are actually titanium based on that link. I’m not saying they weren’t titanium. The information is confusing and I can’t find anything really definitive. They are roundly panned, however.


FWIW, Araya USA claims that they made rims using titanium, I assume thy're referring to the Titan-Ace:

"Araya Industrial has over a century of experience making bicycle rims. Their first rims were formed out of wood. Since then Araya has engineered rims using aluminum, titanium, carbon fiber, magnesium, and stainless steel."

https://www.araya-usa.com/about-us
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Old 06-17-21, 03:12 PM
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So now that we have the reasoning behind rim quality. lets talk pricing....how will i know if something is over priced as opposed to priced reasonably?
-reviews of some customers aren't very useful whatsoever
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Old 06-17-21, 09:02 PM
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Originally Posted by justinschulz9
So now that we have the reasoning behind rim quality. lets talk pricing....how will i know if something is over priced as opposed to priced reasonably?
-reviews of some customers aren't very useful whatsoever
Even harder question to answer. I want a strong rim that will hold up to whatever I put it through a Sun rhino will do the job affordably, I know I can buy a mavic or velocity that will be just as sturdy for at least twice the price. Both will be lighter though and both in my experience will have a better seam, all three will build up nice with no trouble. What's the weight difference worth to you is the question. For 140.00 I can get a velocity aileron that's got a decent profile and weight, for 160 I could get a similar rim in carbon from light bicycle that will be lighter and stiffer, can be hard to argue the difference though for the long distance gravel ride the less stiff aluminum is preferred but carbon on the road bike would be worth the 20.00 difference. While Enve will build you a wonder rim for hundreds more that I don't think is worth the difference but there''s more than enough who would disagree that the company is thriving. Value is what rim checks all the right boxes and budget. Is an aluminum rim really worth 225.00? Yes, when I see the smile on my wife's face over the purple anno that gets her regular compliments that keeps her smiling, some might be over priced a little but most will be priced to market value and the right value is up to you.
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Old 06-17-21, 10:29 PM
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I have been upset for years that American Classic shut down before I got their magnesium rims.
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Old 06-18-21, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by justinschulz9
So now that we have the reasoning behind rim quality. lets talk pricing....how will i know if something is over priced as opposed to priced reasonably?
-reviews of some customers aren't very useful whatsoever
This is totally a matter of opinion. The only way to measure pricing acceptance is by sales history. Until someone buys a rim that rim's cost is only an offer or a request. One person might place great value on a brand or country of origin. Another might think it's the spoke hole treatment that is the biggie. Each person will thus look at the same rim with vastly different filters and have different opinions of value.

My thinking is that if you decide to buy a rim then you've decided that it's worth the cost (however the cost is determined, not all cost is monitory). Then when something goes wrong your opinion can change quickly. If the game is to pay less then other buyers...well that's a different ball game. Andy
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