Spoke Safety = Bike Safety?
#26
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Agreed. And I'm not always (or usually) clear.
#27
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If you don’t own a mobile phone, then you don’t have to worry about being tracked. Period. But if you have On-Star or a similar product in your vehicle, you can still be tracked. Ah life can be so complicated these days.
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I don’t care whether or not I’m tracked on my bike. I upload my own rides to Strava anyway.
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Car tech is already incrementally heading that way, hence why I think this particular system is likely to be redundant. My car is already aware of bicycles, pedestrians and other vehicles. My bike is also aware of approaching cars. None of the tech is detrimental to either my driving or biking experience.
Do take a look at the website for this particular app or whatever you call it. There's a picture of a very busy-looking screen on the steering wheel of a car and a list of all the outside devices and infrastructure contributing to that display. I'm thinking this might be heading in the direction of information overload and distraction.
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That might need some support or qualification. One of the things TCAS did is give pilots useful information to acquire sight of other aircraft visually. Whether it's entirely legitimate by regulation and procedure I'd suspect many of the ignore instances you are referring to are for time when the other aircraft was in visual sight by the crew.
Again, I think the comparison to TCAS is fatally flawed. First, if you put such a device on a car, it's going to encounter more close passes in a single city block than might be encountered by a pilot in months of flying. Also, TCAS is necessitated in part by differences in altitude and huge differences in speeds creating problems with visualization. You just have more blind spots flying than you have driving.
I'm not against the concept of proximity detection, I just think people are probably fooling themselves if they think that it will appreciably improve safety especially if it's just part of a flood of data being thrown at the driver.
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Do take a look at the website for this particular app or whatever you call it. There's a picture of a very busy-looking screen on the steering wheel of a car and a list of all the outside devices and infrastructure contributing to that display. I'm thinking this might be heading in the direction of information overload and distraction.
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In that case, your Location Services on your mobile phone is turned for all apps, etc to OFF. Even so, you location can be determined by triangulation by any official entity determined to find your phone.
If you don’t own a mobile phone, then you don’t have to worry about being tracked. Period. But if you have On-Star or a similar product in your vehicle, you can still be tracked. Ah life can be so complicated these days.
If you don’t own a mobile phone, then you don’t have to worry about being tracked. Period. But if you have On-Star or a similar product in your vehicle, you can still be tracked. Ah life can be so complicated these days.
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GPS isn't as powerful as 5g integrated stuff like what is in smart cities in China. https://thechinaguys.com/china-smart...s-development/
#34
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You and a few others seem to be dwelling too much on the actual implementation of TCAS and not the very basic concept behind it. Which is essentially traffic giving their position or at least stating their presence to any and every other nearby.
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My point is that people are like "your cell phone already tracks you, whats the big deal with this other thing" while missing the power of 5g tech. I only brought up china because products like this only exist in a wide scale in a handful of cities like Shenzhen
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Given the way both cars and bicycles are getting smarter at monitoring their own surroundings (e.g. Tesla AP already recognises and tracks bicycles and Garmin Varia alerts riders of approaching cars) is there any added value in actually connecting the vehicles at all? So my first thought is that this could be a redundant product.
I don't think it needs to be a fully -connected internet device, (broadcasting name, route, playlist and payment information, lol) but more like a simple electronic beacon saying: "cyclist" so the AGVs can't confuse you for a bush or other roadside hardware.
This idea isn't really new, either; I remember hearing about it when I was at FHWA in the 1990s, possibly NHTSA or Cal Trans was working on it, but the tech wasn't quite there yet (think about what computers and cell phones looked like 30 years ago)
Rally / Raid (like the Dakar Rally) uses a system called Sentinel, that alerts competitors when they're within 200m of another vehicle; since it's common to have different classes/speeds of vehicles on the same section at the same time, and may be obscured by dust, fog or terrain; and your typical rally pilot generally has his hands full just trying to keep it wheels -down and between the trees.
Last edited by Ironfish653; 11-07-22 at 06:16 PM.
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#38
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I don't think so. Basically, everybody but Tesla is giving up on self-driving cars because the supposedly very basic concepts become impossible to implement in the context of busy traffic. The basic concept of TCAS was never intended to be implemented in an environment where literally dozens of transponders are within a few feet of each other.
TBH, that website is incredibly vague about where this stuff is in terms of development. I don't think they're even showing proof of concept let alone suggesting anything about implementation. Hell, just the question of how many people need to adopt this for any tangible benefit to occur might be insurmountable.
I know, blah blah luddite, blah blah Wright Brothers, man on the moon. But this isn't Varia, this isn't anything that actually exists to be tried. At this point, it's little more than a PowerPoint presentation, and the vast majority of those come and go like the Hyperloop.
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TCAS may or may not be different. I worked in field support engineering for airplanes and pilots were always ignoring warnings and blaming the airplane anyway. Then we would go through a big upgrade cycle to add warnings that they would ignore. And I can hardly blame them for some of that. I got a ride in the back of a fighter and there were warnings both on takeoff and landing, just when you don't need bs warnings.
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I don't think so. Basically, everybody but Tesla is giving up on self-driving cars because the supposedly very basic concepts become impossible to implement in the context of busy traffic. The basic concept of TCAS was never intended to be implemented in an environment where literally dozens of transponders are within a few feet of each other.
TBH, that website is incredibly vague about where this stuff is in terms of development. I don't think they're even showing proof of concept let alone suggesting anything about implementation. Hell, just the question of how many people need to adopt this for any tangible benefit to occur might be insurmountable.
I know, blah blah luddite, blah blah Wright Brothers, man on the moon. But this isn't Varia, this isn't anything that actually exists to be tried. At this point, it's little more than a PowerPoint presentation, and the vast majority of those come and go like the Hyperloop.
TBH, that website is incredibly vague about where this stuff is in terms of development. I don't think they're even showing proof of concept let alone suggesting anything about implementation. Hell, just the question of how many people need to adopt this for any tangible benefit to occur might be insurmountable.
I know, blah blah luddite, blah blah Wright Brothers, man on the moon. But this isn't Varia, this isn't anything that actually exists to be tried. At this point, it's little more than a PowerPoint presentation, and the vast majority of those come and go like the Hyperloop.
The basic concept of both systems seems to be that the vehicles involved constantly announce their presence in the area. It's much the same as me letting other know that I'm behind them or passing. Of course TCAS is amalgamated information radar ground stations that is processed and sent back to the TCAS unit. But still the basic concept is the airplane is actively letting other know it's there and that information can be used by other aircraft/aircrews to supplement and enhance safety.
Nothing was said by me about autonomous vehicles. So not sure why you bring that up. Also not sure why you keep bringing up use in crowded traffic situations as we don't always ride where it's crowded and certainly a lot of stuff happens out on a lonely stretch of road with presumably the driver claiming they weren't aware of the cyclist.
#41
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TCAS may or may not be different. I worked in field support engineering for airplanes and pilots were always ignoring warnings and blaming the airplane anyway. Then we would go through a big upgrade cycle to add warnings that they would ignore. And I can hardly blame them for some of that. I got a ride in the back of a fighter and there were warnings both on takeoff and landing, just when you don't need bs warnings.
So yes there is a lot of stuff to be considered for how one would be alerted. I'm thankful to have flown airplanes that were designed with the idea that you don't have to scare the b'jeezes out of the flight crew. Just let them know that something might be amiss. To bad car designers haven't figured that out yet.
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A simple IFF type system (identification friend or foe) might work. Something on the bike that takes very little power to operate; a signal sent out a couple times each second; and something on every vehicle as part of the cruise/autopilot/LIDAR gear, to sense proximity of such a signal; and a means of warning the driver and cyclist there's a situation brewing.
I suppose it'd be a new "IFF" sensor, for detecting such nearby transmissions. Yet another piece of "tech," sure. But might well avoid some of the "speed bump" life-taking that occurs now. Cyclists could have a low-powered transmitter; pedestrians could have one as well. If cars always have the sensing active, as part of the general safety set of equipment, ...
Something's got to change, given the increasing availability of equipment on autos that seemingly absolves a person of the need to consciously manage driving the vehicle, at least so long as such tech ain't perfect.
I suppose it'd be a new "IFF" sensor, for detecting such nearby transmissions. Yet another piece of "tech," sure. But might well avoid some of the "speed bump" life-taking that occurs now. Cyclists could have a low-powered transmitter; pedestrians could have one as well. If cars always have the sensing active, as part of the general safety set of equipment, ...
Something's got to change, given the increasing availability of equipment on autos that seemingly absolves a person of the need to consciously manage driving the vehicle, at least so long as such tech ain't perfect.
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There will be a push for V2V because sensor data itself won't be good enough for automated driving. Probably implemented first on corridors like limited access roads. V2V will be a gold-mine of data, just as Musk gets tons of data from Teslas (and now Twits).
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#44
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I don't know why you are so stuck on the TCAS concept, it's not an adequate description of the ambition of this Spoke idea, and you're grossly oversimplifying the idea when you try to reduce it to that. Do I believe that we're heading towards a transponder future? No, because I think the coordination of such a system on crowded roads is an absurdly Herculean task, and it's close to useless on non-crowded roads.
I'm completely skeptical of this, the website seems really half-baked.
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Here in the UK a lot of the more serious accidents (fatalities) occur on country lanes. They are generally quite narrow and winding with lots of blind bends and hill crests. Rural roads here account for over half of all fatal crashes, despite much lower traffic volume.
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too many people die or are injured on bikes. if we’re serious about getting people out of cars and onto bikes, something like this needs to be done, but hopefully much, much simpler.
all you really need on the vehicle dash, IMO, is a four sided indicator with bright lights that get brighter and redder as you get closer to a bicycle. closure rate beyond a certain point and it gets noisy. should be extremely simple, and given how much tech is already legally required in cars it’s probably not anywhere near a hundred bucks worth of sensors and lights and code once amortized over millions of cars. i bet the bicycle side could be a self-powered widget, the way that some medical devices are powered by the body’s movement.
all you really need on the vehicle dash, IMO, is a four sided indicator with bright lights that get brighter and redder as you get closer to a bicycle. closure rate beyond a certain point and it gets noisy. should be extremely simple, and given how much tech is already legally required in cars it’s probably not anywhere near a hundred bucks worth of sensors and lights and code once amortized over millions of cars. i bet the bicycle side could be a self-powered widget, the way that some medical devices are powered by the body’s movement.
#47
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The problem, as I see it is the driving environment is too complicated for the speed at which drivers drive. This causes mishaps.
The engineers solutions to these mishaps is to increase safety margins with wider roads which in turn begs for higher speeds & the result is of course more severe mishaps. But also a feeling of entitled ownership over the shared space essentially given to them for one implicit use & of course, that breeds resentment and then contempt towards anyone or anything that dare slow that driver down from using all 100% of the safety margin the engineer provided.
Then that is combatted with more visual clutter in the form of signs begging drivers to do the right thing & please slow down. Which, of course drivers ignore because there is absolutely nothing about the road/street design & huge safety margins that instill any reason to do so.
The truth is: Drivers simply drive the speed they feel is right with minimum amount of attention necessary to the task as informed by the ample feeling of security/absence of risk the engineers road design gives them.
Absent speed governors, the solution is to rip a drivers brain out of mode #1 "automatic" processing & force them into mode #2 "conscious" processing through better design. Narrow lanes, speed bumps, raised crosswalks, visual cues, tactile cues, and a whole host of other measures continually implemented until the desired speed on a road or a street is actually driven.
There is an entire field of study here & nations of successful implementation that American traffic engineers basically ignore because they concentrate solely on the wrong metrics of car speed & vehicle throughput.
Every cyclist or pedestrian death is a traffic engineers failure to implement proper infrastructure design.
TCAS..,pbbbbth. Slow the cars & tech boys PowerPoint slide is a solution looking for a problem.
The engineers solutions to these mishaps is to increase safety margins with wider roads which in turn begs for higher speeds & the result is of course more severe mishaps. But also a feeling of entitled ownership over the shared space essentially given to them for one implicit use & of course, that breeds resentment and then contempt towards anyone or anything that dare slow that driver down from using all 100% of the safety margin the engineer provided.
Then that is combatted with more visual clutter in the form of signs begging drivers to do the right thing & please slow down. Which, of course drivers ignore because there is absolutely nothing about the road/street design & huge safety margins that instill any reason to do so.
The truth is: Drivers simply drive the speed they feel is right with minimum amount of attention necessary to the task as informed by the ample feeling of security/absence of risk the engineers road design gives them.
Absent speed governors, the solution is to rip a drivers brain out of mode #1 "automatic" processing & force them into mode #2 "conscious" processing through better design. Narrow lanes, speed bumps, raised crosswalks, visual cues, tactile cues, and a whole host of other measures continually implemented until the desired speed on a road or a street is actually driven.
There is an entire field of study here & nations of successful implementation that American traffic engineers basically ignore because they concentrate solely on the wrong metrics of car speed & vehicle throughput.
Every cyclist or pedestrian death is a traffic engineers failure to implement proper infrastructure design.
TCAS..,pbbbbth. Slow the cars & tech boys PowerPoint slide is a solution looking for a problem.
#48
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The problem, as I see it is the driving environment is too complicated for the speed at which drivers drive. This causes mishaps.
The engineers solutions to these mishaps is to increase safety margins with wider roads which in turn begs for higher speeds & the result is of course more severe mishaps. But also a feeling of entitled ownership over the shared space essentially given to them for one implicit use & of course, that breeds resentment and then contempt towards anyone or anything that dare slow that driver down from using all 100% of the safety margin the engineer provided.
Then that is combatted with more visual clutter in the form of signs begging drivers to do the right thing & please slow down. Which, of course drivers ignore because there is absolutely nothing about the road/street design & huge safety margins that instill any reason to do so.
The truth is: Drivers simply drive the speed they feel is right with minimum amount of attention necessary to the task as informed by the ample feeling of security/absence of risk the engineers road design gives them.
Absent speed governors, the solution is to rip a drivers brain out of mode #1 "automatic" processing & force them into mode #2 "conscious" processing through better design. Narrow lanes, speed bumps, raised crosswalks, visual cues, tactile cues, and a whole host of other measures continually implemented until the desired speed on a road or a street is actually driven.
There is an entire field of study here & nations of successful implementation that American traffic engineers basically ignore because they concentrate solely on the wrong metrics of car speed & vehicle throughput.
Every cyclist or pedestrian death is a traffic engineers failure to implement proper infrastructure design.
TCAS..,pbbbbth. Slow the cars & tech boys PowerPoint slide is a solution looking for a problem.
The engineers solutions to these mishaps is to increase safety margins with wider roads which in turn begs for higher speeds & the result is of course more severe mishaps. But also a feeling of entitled ownership over the shared space essentially given to them for one implicit use & of course, that breeds resentment and then contempt towards anyone or anything that dare slow that driver down from using all 100% of the safety margin the engineer provided.
Then that is combatted with more visual clutter in the form of signs begging drivers to do the right thing & please slow down. Which, of course drivers ignore because there is absolutely nothing about the road/street design & huge safety margins that instill any reason to do so.
The truth is: Drivers simply drive the speed they feel is right with minimum amount of attention necessary to the task as informed by the ample feeling of security/absence of risk the engineers road design gives them.
Absent speed governors, the solution is to rip a drivers brain out of mode #1 "automatic" processing & force them into mode #2 "conscious" processing through better design. Narrow lanes, speed bumps, raised crosswalks, visual cues, tactile cues, and a whole host of other measures continually implemented until the desired speed on a road or a street is actually driven.
There is an entire field of study here & nations of successful implementation that American traffic engineers basically ignore because they concentrate solely on the wrong metrics of car speed & vehicle throughput.
Every cyclist or pedestrian death is a traffic engineers failure to implement proper infrastructure design.
TCAS..,pbbbbth. Slow the cars & tech boys PowerPoint slide is a solution looking for a problem.
Relating this back to V2V, I don't think the bike itself really needs an electronic beacon to be visible to a smart car like Tesla. The physical bike itself appears to be a good enough beacon. Same goes on the other side with a Garmin Varia. The car itself is the beacon and the Varia picks them up early enough to give plenty of warning.
Last edited by PeteHski; 11-06-22 at 06:07 AM.
#49
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In the US, the fatalaties are more like 70% urban. The proportion of fatalities is probably skewed towards rural roads as compared to urban as rural crashes are more likely to be fatal, likely because the speeds are higher. Nonfatal crash statistics are usually pretty bad due to methodology issues, but they're probably even more dominated by urban.
#50
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In the US, the fatalaties are more like 70% urban. The proportion of fatalities is probably skewed towards rural roads as compared to urban as rural crashes are more likely to be fatal, likely because the speeds are higher. Nonfatal crash statistics are usually pretty bad due to methodology issues, but they're probably even more dominated by urban.