Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Bicycle Mechanics
Reload this Page >

Using a Spoke Tensiometer

Notices
Bicycle Mechanics Broken bottom bracket? Tacoed wheel? If you're having problems with your bicycle, or just need help fixing a flat, drop in here for the latest on bicycle mechanics & bicycle maintenance.

Using a Spoke Tensiometer

Old 11-19-22, 08:53 AM
  #26  
Lombard
Sock Puppet
 
Lombard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 961

Bikes: 2014 Cannondale Synapse Carbon, 2017 Jamis Renegade Exploit and too many others to mention.

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 599 Post(s)
Liked 497 Times in 340 Posts
Originally Posted by mrrabbit View Post
The spokes laced / under over are heading out at 2x, 3x or 4x. The actual reach difference will only be at or less than .3mm. ( point three mm) Nothing to phone home about.

...and FB...all else considered equal - perfect rim set, perfect nipple set - there will be initial tension differences between the inside / outside spokes of a pair. The gap closes as the tension increases - but not 100%.

We're talking differences of less than 10 kgf for a 110-130 kgf wheel. Nothing to phone home about.

It's like arguing about inside pulling and outside pulling - instead of the just building the damn wheel.
^^^This.^^^
Lombard is offline  
Old 11-19-22, 09:13 AM
  #27  
Lombard
Sock Puppet
 
Lombard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 961

Bikes: 2014 Cannondale Synapse Carbon, 2017 Jamis Renegade Exploit and too many others to mention.

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 599 Post(s)
Liked 497 Times in 340 Posts
A couple things to add here.

1) Most alloy rims that don't have Mavic written on them should be able to handle 130kgF. With a tire mounted and inflated, this number will drop.

2) As mrrabbit said, differences between inside and outside spoke tensions will be negligible. This is a big nothingburger.

3) We know that equalizing spoke tensions is important - more important than getting the wheel absolutely true. I would assume this applies to the NDS as well as the drive side. Considering that under tensioning on the NDS could conceivably cause NDS spokes to go slack, I would think equalizing NDS spokes would be even more important than equalizing DS spokes. On a Shimano rear hub and 11-speed freehub, 130kgF on the DS will give you around 55kgF on the NDS. This number will drop into the 40-50kgF range with a tire mounted which is still plenty of tension. Below that and it could become problematic which is why equalizing NDS spokes is critical.
Lombard is offline  
Old 11-19-22, 11:33 AM
  #28  
chorlton
Full Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 277
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 98 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
OK. Try it this way. We, almost, accept that angle of a spoke sets its tension. The smaller the angle the greater the tension. On my front wheel the sums, which may not be correct, show a calculated 17Kgf difference inner/outer on the flange. This is with a 3mm offset to which you have to add the diameter of the spoke as it exits the flange and account for the offset at the rim. As to whether it is significant or not it is there and despite questions about the accuracy of the measurement the relative difference can be measured and set.

Now we get back to this torsion, radial as opposed to lateral, thing. The torsion, should it be there, will act to rotate the hub in the same direction assuming the lacing forces this which, if you follow Sheldon Brown, it must do so. In doing so the radial angle, again angle is the important part, will adjust to equalize the radial tensions, as vectors X/Y, in the spokes whilst the lateral tensions, as vectors Z with the axle being the Z axis, will maintain their difference. The complete wheel will adopt a minimum energy solution and there will be no torsion in the hub.

The only remaining question would be are you bothered and if so is it valid to calculate the difference purely based on the Z angle. I am bothered because I can measure it and also I am bothered because it makes sense, at least to me, and removes some of the mystery or uncertainty. I also dropped quite a bit of money on the TM-1.

Last edited by chorlton; 11-19-22 at 11:42 AM.
chorlton is offline  
Old 11-19-22, 08:15 PM
  #29  
Kevinti
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jun 2022
Location: Oahu, Hawaii
Posts: 65

Bikes: Time VXS Translink, State Bicycle Black Label V2 Single, Electra Beach Cruiser, Santana Tandem

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 25 Post(s)
Liked 21 Times in 16 Posts
I'm glad some of you guys are having confidence with the tool (Park TM-1) but I am not impressed with the quality of the offering. The sliding metal surfaces all interfere with each other and the anemic, hopefully teflon, "bushings" are so thin that the loose tolerances of the assembly bring the whole tool into question. Still saying all this it is useful. I am not sure I would use it to build a wheel because the sloppy tolerances mean that you would have to recalibrate after every 20 or so squeezes of the tool. I find it useful to run through the spokes on a side to see if they are all close to each other. The tool allows me to see if one or more are way out of bed but using the values on the scale is not somethign I would trust.
Kevinti is offline  
Likes For Kevinti:
Old 11-19-22, 08:33 PM
  #30  
FBinNY 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Posts: 36,753

Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter

Mentioned: 131 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4776 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 766 Times in 478 Posts
Originally Posted by Kevinti View Post
I'm glad some of you guys are having confidence with the tool (Park TM-1) but I am not impressed with the quality of the offering. ......
Interesting observation, however I'd come to a nearly opposite conclusion.

The design flaws would have the greatest effect on repeatability, so I couldn't trust individual spokes tension readings unless I checked each spoke a few times.

OTOH even if not precise or accurate, it's still fine for taking multiple samples to make a call about overall tension.

FWIW unlike many here, I don't obsess about tension, and my target for "correct" tension is a fairly broad band between high enough and not excessively high. I'm probably also in the minority in that I consider 130kgf excessive in most applications.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site

An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.

“Never argue with an idiot. He will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.”, George Carlin

“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN

WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FBinNY is offline  
Old 11-20-22, 02:05 AM
  #31  
mrrabbit 
Senior Member
 
mrrabbit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: San Jose, California
Posts: 3,496

Bikes: 2001 Tommasini Sintesi w/ Campagnolo Daytona 10 Speed

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 140 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 31 Times in 26 Posts
Originally Posted by Kevinti View Post
I'm glad some of you guys are having confidence with the tool (Park TM-1) but I am not impressed with the quality of the offering. The sliding metal surfaces all interfere with each other and the anemic, hopefully teflon, "bushings" are so thin that the loose tolerances of the assembly bring the whole tool into question. Still saying all this it is useful. I am not sure I would use it to build a wheel because the sloppy tolerances mean that you would have to recalibrate after every 20 or so squeezes of the tool. I find it useful to run through the spokes on a side to see if they are all close to each other. The tool allows me to see if one or more are way out of bed but using the values on the scale is not somethign I would trust.
I build about 200-500 wheels per year.

Break a TM-1 spring about every 1000 wheels.

Have three TM-1s (one of which is very very old...) and a couple spare spring kits.

Only have to recalibrate every dozen wheels or so - which only takes 5 mins max.

For the current 80-100 bucks it goes for now...it does the job.

There's your trust statement.


We'll now return to our scheduled programming...

=8-)
__________________
5000+ wheels built since 1984...

Disclaimer:

1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
5. My all time favorite book is:

Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life
mrrabbit is offline  
Old 11-20-22, 08:57 AM
  #32  
Dan Burkhart 
Senior member
 
Dan Burkhart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Oakville Ontario
Posts: 7,946
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 871 Post(s)
Liked 495 Times in 285 Posts
Originally Posted by mrrabbit View Post
I build about 200-500 wheels per year.

Break a TM-1 spring about every 1000 wheels.

Have three TM-1s (one of which is very very old...) and a couple spare spring kits.

Only have to recalibrate every dozen wheels or so - which only takes 5 mins max.

For the current 80-100 bucks it goes for now...it does the job.

There's your trust statement.


We'll now return to our scheduled programming...

=8-)
I am in that range of numbers as well, 300 plus per year for a single client with their own branded line plus loads of one offs.
What I demand of a tension meter is consistency and repeatability.
I have three tension meters, Wheelsmith, Wheel Fanatyk and the TM1.
Without a calibration fixture, the TM1 would be useless to me if I had to rely on the supplied chart but it does give repeatable readings.
Mostly, the TM1 gathers dust as I rely almost exclusively on the Wheel Fanatyk.
Dan Burkhart is offline  
Likes For Dan Burkhart:
Old 11-20-22, 11:19 AM
  #33  
Kevinti
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jun 2022
Location: Oahu, Hawaii
Posts: 65

Bikes: Time VXS Translink, State Bicycle Black Label V2 Single, Electra Beach Cruiser, Santana Tandem

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 25 Post(s)
Liked 21 Times in 16 Posts
Originally Posted by mrrabbit View Post
I build about 200-500 wheels per year.

Break a TM-1 spring about every 1000 wheels.

Have three TM-1s (one of which is very very old...) and a couple spare spring kits.

Only have to recalibrate every dozen wheels or so - which only takes 5 mins max.

For the current 80-100 bucks it goes for now...it does the job.

There's your trust statement.


We'll now return to our scheduled programming...

=8-)
It is my first tension meter so I am glad to hear that it is up to the task, means I didn't waste my money. Have you had the issue I had where the anodized aluminum plates were rubbing against each other because the pivot screws were loose? Mine was like this when I got it new from Park. I used it this way for a while before I saw the anodize was rubbing off and then realized I might want to tighten the pivot bolts to take the slop out. Was that the right thing to do?

Originally Posted by Dan Burkhart View Post
I am in that range of numbers as well, 300 plus per year for a single client with their own branded line plus loads of one offs.
What I demand of a tension meter is consistency and repeatability.
I have three tension meters, Wheelsmith, Wheel Fanatyk and the TM1.
Without a calibration fixture, the TM1 would be useless to me if I had to rely on the supplied chart but it does give repeatable readings.
Mostly, the TM1 gathers dust as I rely almost exclusively on the Wheel Fanatyk.
Thanks for mentioning the Wheel Fanatyk brand I didn't see it when I was searching for wheel tools. Looks like they have some nice stuff. I'm sure they'll get some of my money at some point!
Kevinti is offline  
Likes For Kevinti:
Old 11-21-22, 08:53 AM
  #34  
pdlamb
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: northern Deep South
Posts: 8,049

Bikes: Fuji Touring, Novara Randonee

Mentioned: 35 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2170 Post(s)
Liked 1,395 Times in 888 Posts
Originally Posted by mrrabbit View Post
I build about 200-500 wheels per year.

Break a TM-1 spring about every 1000 wheels.

Have three TM-1s (one of which is very very old...) and a couple spare spring kits.

Only have to recalibrate every dozen wheels or so - which only takes 5 mins max.

For the current 80-100 bucks it goes for now...it does the job.
Just out of curiosity, when you recalibrate, how far off is/was the TM-1?
pdlamb is online now  
Old 11-22-22, 06:43 AM
  #35  
Dan Burkhart 
Senior member
 
Dan Burkhart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Oakville Ontario
Posts: 7,946
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 871 Post(s)
Liked 495 Times in 285 Posts
Originally Posted by pdlamb View Post
Just out of curiosity, when you recalibrate, how far off is/was the TM-1?
Please don’t take this as an indicator of how you should adjust your readings, as each tool should be calibrated independently, but I just tested my TM1 in the calibration jig and with 105 kgf on a 1.8mm spoke, I got a reading of about 120 kgf.
As I have said previously, without a calibration jig, the TM1 is of limited utility.
Dan Burkhart is offline  
Old 11-22-22, 09:43 AM
  #36  
pdlamb
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: northern Deep South
Posts: 8,049

Bikes: Fuji Touring, Novara Randonee

Mentioned: 35 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2170 Post(s)
Liked 1,395 Times in 888 Posts
Originally Posted by Dan Burkhart View Post
Please don’t take this as an indicator of how you should adjust your readings, as each tool should be calibrated independently, but I just tested my TM1 in the calibration jig and with 105 kgf on a 1.8mm spoke, I got a reading of about 120 kgf.
As I have said previously, without a calibration jig, the TM1 is of limited utility.
Not having the sheet in front of me, that sounds like about one marking on the TM-1, right?

And it sounds like you've calibrated this tool multiple times. Does it regularly (like almost every time you check it) read about a marking high?
pdlamb is online now  
Old 11-22-22, 11:11 AM
  #37  
gearbasher
Senior Member
 
gearbasher's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Sitting on my butt in front of a computer
Posts: 1,339
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 354 Post(s)
Liked 465 Times in 243 Posts
I really don't care if my TM-1 is calibrated or not. When I bought it, I checked the readings of the only "professionally" built wheels I've ever owned. I then built my wheels using that value. After 5 or 6 sets of wheels, I just check the value on the ones already built and use that number for my next set. I couldn't tell you Kgf on any of my wheels. But, I rarely break spokes and my wheels stay true.
gearbasher is offline  
Old 11-22-22, 01:26 PM
  #38  
Dan Burkhart 
Senior member
 
Dan Burkhart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Oakville Ontario
Posts: 7,946
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 871 Post(s)
Liked 495 Times in 285 Posts
Originally Posted by gearbasher View Post
I really don't care if my TM-1 is calibrated or not. When I bought it, I checked the readings of the only "professionally" built wheels I've ever owned. I then built my wheels using that value. After 5 or 6 sets of wheels, I just check the value on the ones already built and use that number for my next set. I couldn't tell you Kgf on any of my wheels. But, I rarely break spokes and my wheels stay true.
Sure, and for most who build wheels for their own use probably good enough.
For those of us who produce hundreds of wheels per year, we need to be a bit more obsessive.
Dan Burkhart is offline  
Old 11-22-22, 05:16 PM
  #39  
Yan 
Senior Member
 
Yan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,397
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1008 Post(s)
Liked 248 Times in 164 Posts
That Park tensionmeter is not reliable at all.

Dial gauge tensionmeters are available on AliExpress for extremely cheap. I suggest you pick one up.
Yan is offline  
Old 11-30-22, 11:07 AM
  #40  
mrrabbit 
Senior Member
 
mrrabbit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: San Jose, California
Posts: 3,496

Bikes: 2001 Tommasini Sintesi w/ Campagnolo Daytona 10 Speed

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 140 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 31 Times in 26 Posts
Originally Posted by pdlamb View Post
Just out of curiosity, when you recalibrate, how far off is/was the TM-1?
I calibrate against notch 24 for a 14g stainless steel spokes.

That's supposed to be @ 107 KGF.

After about a dozen wheels it'll be off a little. I'll set my rig as close as possible to 107 KGF...and get a reading of 102 or 103 or 104 or to the other side - 109, 110 - for a period of time.

I know the spring is about to break when it starts to stick to my calibrated setting for 107 @ the 24th hash mark - but reads way off for the 23rd and 25th hash mark.

The spring hardens eventually and becomes brittle.

This is the downside to spring based measuring instruments - the spring slowly hardens towards a brittle point and the behavior changes as it progresses before it finally breaks.

=8-|
__________________
5000+ wheels built since 1984...

Disclaimer:

1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
5. My all time favorite book is:

Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life
mrrabbit is offline  
Old 11-30-22, 11:08 AM
  #41  
mrrabbit 
Senior Member
 
mrrabbit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: San Jose, California
Posts: 3,496

Bikes: 2001 Tommasini Sintesi w/ Campagnolo Daytona 10 Speed

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 140 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 31 Times in 26 Posts
Originally Posted by Yan View Post
That Park tensionmeter is not reliable at all.

Dial gauge tensionmeters are available on AliExpress for extremely cheap. I suggest you pick one up.
You just admitted you don't understand how a tensionmeter works and the real measurement purpose of a tensionmeter.

=8-|
__________________
5000+ wheels built since 1984...

Disclaimer:

1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
5. My all time favorite book is:

Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life
mrrabbit is offline  
Old 11-30-22, 11:10 AM
  #42  
mrrabbit 
Senior Member
 
mrrabbit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: San Jose, California
Posts: 3,496

Bikes: 2001 Tommasini Sintesi w/ Campagnolo Daytona 10 Speed

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 140 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 31 Times in 26 Posts
Originally Posted by Dan Burkhart View Post
Please don’t take this as an indicator of how you should adjust your readings, as each tool should be calibrated independently, but I just tested my TM1 in the calibration jig and with 105 kgf on a 1.8mm spoke, I got a reading of about 120 kgf.
As I have said previously, without a calibration jig, the TM1 is of limited utility.
Without a calibration jig OR a preset calibration rod . . .

. . . all of our tensionmeters are of limited utility.

Without, they're reduced to simply measuring relative tension.

=8-|
__________________
5000+ wheels built since 1984...

Disclaimer:

1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
5. My all time favorite book is:

Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life
mrrabbit is offline  
Old 11-30-22, 11:13 AM
  #43  
Yan 
Senior Member
 
Yan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,397
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1008 Post(s)
Liked 248 Times in 164 Posts
Originally Posted by mrrabbit View Post
You just admitted you don't understand how a tensionmeter works and the real measurement purpose of a tensionmeter.

=8-|
Buddy I've been building wheels with every type of tension meter on the market since before you learned to ride a bike.
Yan is offline  
Old 11-30-22, 11:24 AM
  #44  
mrrabbit 
Senior Member
 
mrrabbit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: San Jose, California
Posts: 3,496

Bikes: 2001 Tommasini Sintesi w/ Campagnolo Daytona 10 Speed

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 140 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 31 Times in 26 Posts
Another thing folks need to remember is that the spokes you use will cause fluctuations in the tensionmeter readings.

For example:

Use a 14g DT Swiss stainless steel spoke on a calibration rig to calibrate the tensionmeter for 100 KGF.

Then . . .

1. Read a CN Mac Series 14g spoke.
2. Read a Wheelsmith 14g spoke.
3. Read a Pillar 14g spoke.
4. Read a Sapim 14g spoke.
5. Read a Wheelmaster / Tsing-Ta 14g spoke.
6. n++;

...your readings will be all over the place.

The are multiple grades of stainless steel on the market. Each has their own properties AND weight for the same 14g.

That will results in variation.

And the manufacturers of spokes all do their differing treatments of the spokes the produce. Each will have their own properties as well.

For my rig I have the following:

1 x DT Swiss 14g spoke. ( High Grade Stainless Steel )
1 x CN Mac Series 14g spoke. ( Mid-Grade Stainless Steel )
1 x DT Swiss 15g spoke. ( High Grade Stainless Steel )
1 x CN Mac Series 15g spoke. ( Mid-Grade Stainless Steel )
1 x Union / Marwi 14g Titanium spoke.

I calibrate with DT Swiss for DT Swiss and Sapim spokes when I know I will be working a number of wheels sequentially.

I calibrate with CN Mac Series for CN Mac Series and Wheelsmith

I calibrate with Union / Marwi 14g Titanium spoke for all my Titanium builds - that's all I get from the customers - Union / Marwi.

=8-|
__________________
5000+ wheels built since 1984...

Disclaimer:

1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
5. My all time favorite book is:

Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life
mrrabbit is offline  
Old 11-30-22, 11:26 AM
  #45  
mrrabbit 
Senior Member
 
mrrabbit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: San Jose, California
Posts: 3,496

Bikes: 2001 Tommasini Sintesi w/ Campagnolo Daytona 10 Speed

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 140 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 31 Times in 26 Posts
Originally Posted by Yan View Post
Buddy I've been building wheels with every type of tension meter on the market since before you learned to ride a bike.
Go back and read your own statement.

=8-|
__________________
5000+ wheels built since 1984...

Disclaimer:

1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
5. My all time favorite book is:

Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life
mrrabbit is offline  
Old 11-30-22, 11:45 AM
  #46  
Yan 
Senior Member
 
Yan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,397
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1008 Post(s)
Liked 248 Times in 164 Posts
Originally Posted by mrrabbit View Post
Go back and read your own statement.

=8-|
Exactly what part of my statement do you have a problem with? Two posts directed toward me and you haven't uttered a single word of actual information. Trash in trash out.

No offense but that Park TM-1 you use is an utter POS. How do I know? I have one. It's a cheap tool (cheaply made, yet not cheaply priced) that uses a simple spring to measure against a linear scale. A spring like this doesn't even supply a constant force as the spring sweeps through its range. The idea of having a scale stamped on a design like this is a farce in itself.

Ok, so you're calibrating it to a particular tension force and using it to hit one target, no scale involved. Good, but now comes the critical death sentence for this tool: the readings it gives isn't even consistent! Squeeze that thing five times and it will give you five different readings. Squeeze slowly, then next try squeezing quickly, different reading as well! Why? Because it uses a polymer slider in a metal channel. The static and dynamic friction of the slider makes any kind of repeatability impossible. Using this tool is like using a slinky as a ruler.

You want to build a wheel properly? Use the DT Swiss tensionmeter. It's $587. Or you can get one for $50 from AliExpress that is 100% identical. Probably made in the same factory just without the branding profit markup.
https://www.dtswiss.com/en/component...ng/tensiometer

I say again, exactly what part of my statement do you have a problem with? I'll be waiting for an answer that makes sense.

Last edited by Yan; 11-30-22 at 11:51 AM.
Yan is offline  
Old 11-30-22, 12:30 PM
  #47  
pdlamb
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: northern Deep South
Posts: 8,049

Bikes: Fuji Touring, Novara Randonee

Mentioned: 35 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2170 Post(s)
Liked 1,395 Times in 888 Posts
Originally Posted by mrrabbit View Post
I calibrate against notch 24 for a 14g stainless steel spokes.

That's supposed to be @ 107 KGF.

After about a dozen wheels it'll be off a little. I'll set my rig as close as possible to 107 KGF...and get a reading of 102 or 103 or 104 or to the other side - 109, 110 - for a period of time.

I know the spring is about to break when it starts to stick to my calibrated setting for 107 @ the 24th hash mark - but reads way off for the 23rd and 25th hash mark.

The spring hardens eventually and becomes brittle.

This is the downside to spring based measuring instruments - the spring slowly hardens towards a brittle point and the behavior changes as it progresses before it finally breaks.

=8-|
I'll admit that my home use is a couple orders of magnitude below your 5,000 wheels usage. Still, how long (time or wheels) does it take before the spring "hardens ... and becomes brittle?"
pdlamb is online now  
Old 11-30-22, 01:00 PM
  #48  
mrrabbit 
Senior Member
 
mrrabbit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: San Jose, California
Posts: 3,496

Bikes: 2001 Tommasini Sintesi w/ Campagnolo Daytona 10 Speed

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 140 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 31 Times in 26 Posts
Originally Posted by Yan View Post
Exactly what part of my statement do you have a problem with? Two posts directed toward me and you haven't uttered a single word of actual information. Trash in trash out.

No offense but that Park TM-1 you use is an utter POS. How do I know? I have one. It's a cheap tool (cheaply made, yet not cheaply priced) that uses a simple spring to measure against a linear scale. A spring like this doesn't even supply a constant force as the spring sweeps through its range. The idea of having a scale stamped on a design like this is a farce in itself.

Ok, so you're calibrating it to a particular tension force and using it to hit one target, no scale involved. Good, but now comes the critical death sentence for this tool: the readings it gives isn't even consistent! Squeeze that thing five times and it will give you five different readings. Squeeze slowly, then next try squeezing quickly, different reading as well! Why? Because it uses a polymer slider in a metal channel. The static and dynamic friction of the slider makes any kind of repeatability impossible. Using this tool is like using a slinky as a ruler.

You want to build a wheel properly? Use the DT Swiss tensionmeter. It's $587. Or you can get one for $50 from AliExpress that is 100% identical. Probably made in the same factory just without the branding profit markup.
https://www.dtswiss.com/en/component...ng/tensiometer

I say again, exactly what part of my statement do you have a problem with? I'll be waiting for an answer that makes sense.
If you are the "experienced" guy as you claim to be...

Then the following IS TRUE:


1. YOU already know that we provide estimates for spoke by spoke tension and overall average tension. To do otherwise is a waste of time and pointless.

Dial indicators and Digital indicators exist to provided better resolution where precise measurements are needed.

For our purpose, they are a waste of money - just fancy paperweights.


2. YOU already know that the reliability of our tension meters is a function of their being kept calibrated.

The TM-1 can last anywhere from 100s to up to a 1000 wheels before the spring breaks. That spring is easily replaced.

Their physical reliability is NOT the issue.


3. YOU already know that not all spoke material grades are the same for the same gauge and not all treatments are the same.

This further drives the estimation factor measurement on top of the already easily recognized imbalances from imperfect rims and hubs.


4. YOU already know that the truest indicator of what the tension load is to the nth degree would be the spoke itself telling us:

"Hey! I feel a 107.3995 +/- .0001 kilogram load on me!"

But it's an inanimate object...so we do the best we can. We take an indirect reading with an imperfectly human constructed middleman that measures deflection with a followup interpretation.

It's called a tensionmeter. And it does the job we need it do.

The Park TM-1 included.


So either:

A. Your statement was that of a blowhard with something to sell delivered in a one-liner . . .

or

B. Your statement did reveal your ignorance and you have now been corrected.


=8-|
__________________
5000+ wheels built since 1984...

Disclaimer:

1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
5. My all time favorite book is:

Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life
mrrabbit is offline  
Old 11-30-22, 01:03 PM
  #49  
Lombard
Sock Puppet
 
Lombard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 961

Bikes: 2014 Cannondale Synapse Carbon, 2017 Jamis Renegade Exploit and too many others to mention.

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 599 Post(s)
Liked 497 Times in 340 Posts
Originally Posted by mrrabbit View Post
Another thing folks need to remember is that the spokes you use will cause fluctuations in the tensionmeter readings.

For example:

Use a 14g DT Swiss stainless steel spoke on a calibration rig to calibrate the tensionmeter for 100 KGF.

Then . . .

1. Read a CN Mac Series 14g spoke.
2. Read a Wheelsmith 14g spoke.
3. Read a Pillar 14g spoke.
4. Read a Sapim 14g spoke.
5. Read a Wheelmaster / Tsing-Ta 14g spoke.
6. n++;

...your readings will be all over the place.

The are multiple grades of stainless steel on the market. Each has their own properties AND weight for the same 14g.

That will results in variation.

And the manufacturers of spokes all do their differing treatments of the spokes the produce. Each will have their own properties as well.

For my rig I have the following:

1 x DT Swiss 14g spoke. ( High Grade Stainless Steel )
1 x CN Mac Series 14g spoke. ( Mid-Grade Stainless Steel )
1 x DT Swiss 15g spoke. ( High Grade Stainless Steel )
1 x CN Mac Series 15g spoke. ( Mid-Grade Stainless Steel )
1 x Union / Marwi 14g Titanium spoke.

I calibrate with DT Swiss for DT Swiss and Sapim spokes when I know I will be working a number of wheels sequentially.

I calibrate with CN Mac Series for CN Mac Series and Wheelsmith

I calibrate with Union / Marwi 14g Titanium spoke for all my Titanium builds - that's all I get from the customers - Union / Marwi.

=8-|
Interesting about calibrating spokes and different brands.

For my wheel builds, I have only used DT Competitions and Aero Comps.
Lombard is offline  
Old 11-30-22, 01:13 PM
  #50  
Yan 
Senior Member
 
Yan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,397
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1008 Post(s)
Liked 248 Times in 164 Posts
Originally Posted by mrrabbit View Post
If you are the "experienced" guy as you claim to be...

Then the following IS TRUE:


1. YOU already know that we provide estimates for spoke by spoke tension and overall average tension. To do otherwise is a waste of time and pointless.

Dial indicators and Digital indicators exist to provided better resolution where precise measurements are needed.

For our purpose, they are a waste of money - just fancy paperweights.


2. YOU already know that the reliability of our tension meters is a function of their being kept calibrated.

The TM-1 can last anywhere from 100s to up to a 1000 wheels before the spring breaks. That spring is easily replaced.

Their physical reliability is NOT the issue.


3. YOU already know that not all spoke material grades are the same for the same gauge and not all treatments are the same.

This further drives the estimation factor measurement on top of the already easily recognized imbalances from imperfect rims and hubs.


4. YOU already know that the truest indicator of what the tension load is to the nth degree would be the spoke itself telling us:

"Hey! I feel a 107.3995 +/- .0001 kilogram load on me!"

But it's an inanimate object...so we do the best we can. We take an indirect reading with an imperfectly human constructed middleman that measures deflection with a followup interpretation.

It's called a tensionmeter. And it does the job we need it do.

The Park TM-1 included.


So either:

A. Your statement was that of a blowhard with something to sell delivered in a one-liner . . .

or

B. Your statement did reveal your ignorance and you have now been corrected.


=8-|
Lots of BS huffing and puffing.

If you're using a poorly designed tension "meter" that outputs a DIFFERENT measurement EVERYTIME you put it on the same spoke, then it's a total waste of time. It doesn't matter how much you "calibrate" it. The thing can't even give you the same measurement five seconds apart. What are you "calibrating" exactly??? Would you use a ruler that measures 1", but then you take it off the page, put it back on the page, and now it shows 1-1/16? NO! HELLO???

That's all there is to this. Period. The end.

If you want a real laugh, squirt some WD40 on the moving parts of that Park meter and watch the measured tension shoot up. That's how much friction affects the accuracy of this tool. It's a complete joke.

Now you're talking about "estimates" being good enough and "precise" being unnecessary. I just told you there is a $600 tool out there with a dial gauge that gets you precision, and there is a $50 version of the $600 tool that you can buy that is just as good as the $600 tool. And you're sitting here arguing in favor of your $90 POS obsolete tool. What's your point exactly??? $50 is cheaper than $90. Cheaper AND better. Ergo, the $90 Park tool is not a smart choice. What's hard to understand about this simple concept?

I get it, it's your favorite tool in the world that you inherited from your dead ancestors, whatever. The reality is that it's not a great tool and there are better out there for cheaper. Truth is hard to accept, get over it. If you want to keep using your tool, that is your freedom. I'm here sharing information about a superior alternative to other people. What problem do you have with this? You use something therefore it must be only allowable option even if it sucks? No thanks.

Last edited by Yan; 11-30-22 at 01:32 PM.
Yan is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2023 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.