Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > General Cycling Discussion
Reload this Page >

Steel faster than carbon?

Notices
General Cycling Discussion Have a cycling related question or comment that doesn't fit in one of the other specialty forums? Drop on in and post in here! When possible, please select the forum above that most fits your post!

Steel faster than carbon?

Old 10-25-22, 06:06 PM
  #1  
amazinmets73
Full Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 377
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 169 Post(s)
Liked 25 Times in 19 Posts
Steel faster than carbon?

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1CHk54Mm5P_7vbzbhoHoZ_SjcGgICNWXL8ZewfITtpdo/mobilebasic

Any insight into what caused this?
amazinmets73 is offline  
Old 10-25-22, 06:54 PM
  #2  
badger1
Senior Member
 
badger1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Southwestern Ontario
Posts: 4,727
Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1314 Post(s)
Liked 732 Times in 394 Posts
What caused what? Your link is non-functional as far as I can tell.
badger1 is offline  
Old 10-25-22, 06:57 PM
  #3  
Polaris OBark
ignominious poltroon
 
Polaris OBark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2022
Posts: 2,318
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1320 Post(s)
Liked 1,925 Times in 1,061 Posts
You are brave even to click on it. (I would not.)
Polaris OBark is offline  
Likes For Polaris OBark:
Old 10-25-22, 07:02 PM
  #4  
TiHabanero
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,949
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1488 Post(s)
Liked 973 Times in 508 Posts
Copy and paste into the browser and it works just fine.

For many years I have proposed the "aero" frame is no more than marketing bull for gullible buyers. Without the whole package being complete, the aero frame is simply shaped tubing and ineffective by itself. Yeah, yeah, follow the science. Science is wrong more than it is right.
TiHabanero is offline  
Old 10-25-22, 07:03 PM
  #5  
Polaris OBark
ignominious poltroon
 
Polaris OBark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2022
Posts: 2,318
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1320 Post(s)
Liked 1,925 Times in 1,061 Posts
I decided not to follow my own advice.

If you amputate "mobilebasic" from the URL, it will work.

It is anecdotal, with results based on 2 bikes, one rider.

The clear message from the testing is that we have no basis for saying that a new bike is faster than an old one. We dare not be as firm in claiming that the old one is actually the fastest. After all, the article is based on 16 shorter strokes ridden by one test cyclist.
To me, the answer is clear and obvious. The steel bike has a Chris King headset.

​​​​​​​
Polaris OBark is offline  
Likes For Polaris OBark:
Old 10-25-22, 07:04 PM
  #6  
skidder
Bipsycorider
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Orange County, California
Posts: 1,586

Bikes: Why yes, I do have a few! Thank you for asking!

Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1076 Post(s)
Liked 882 Times in 605 Posts
Another Carbon vs. Steel thread? Hold on while I get a few beers and some popcorn, will ya?

skidder is offline  
Old 10-25-22, 07:04 PM
  #7  
Polaris OBark
ignominious poltroon
 
Polaris OBark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2022
Posts: 2,318
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1320 Post(s)
Liked 1,925 Times in 1,061 Posts
Originally Posted by TiHabanero View Post
Copy and paste into the browser and it works just fine.

For many years I have proposed the "aero" frame is no more than marketing bull for gullible buyers. Without the whole package being complete, the aero frame is simply shaped tubing and ineffective by itself. Yeah, yeah, follow the science. Science is wrong more than it is right.
For very fast TT, it is probably helpful. But for people like me, it just increases the comedy/self-parody aspect.
Polaris OBark is offline  
Likes For Polaris OBark:
Old 10-25-22, 07:05 PM
  #8  
Polaris OBark
ignominious poltroon
 
Polaris OBark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2022
Posts: 2,318
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1320 Post(s)
Liked 1,925 Times in 1,061 Posts
Originally Posted by skidder View Post
Another Carbon vs. Steel thread? Hold on while I get a few beers and some popcorn, will ya?

Let's not forget that steel would just be iron if it weren't for the included carbon atoms.
Polaris OBark is offline  
Old 10-25-22, 08:02 PM
  #9  
3alarmer 
Friendship is Magic
 
3alarmer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: The Big Tomato
Posts: 21,450

Bikes: old ones

Mentioned: 298 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24415 Post(s)
Liked 8,185 Times in 5,720 Posts
.
...riders who can't make steel frames go fast are a bunch of girly men. It's all about the motor. Or to quote my personal hero, Lance Armstrong, "It's not about the bike."
__________________
3alarmer is offline  
Likes For 3alarmer:
Old 10-25-22, 08:18 PM
  #10  
rsbob 
😵‍💫
 
rsbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: Seattle-ish
Posts: 3,772
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1461 Post(s)
Liked 2,707 Times in 1,556 Posts
Originally Posted by 3alarmer View Post
.
...riders who can't make steel frames go fast are a bunch of girly men. It's all about the motor. Or to quote my personal hero, Lance Armstrong, "It's not about the bike."
Yesterday I weighed my steel ‘86 Bianchi Campione de Mundo and it came in at a ‘very svelte’ 25 lbs. Combine that with racing gears and the slowest of slow tires, Gatorskins and this girly man has one heck of a time pushing that bike as fast or far as my carbon Bianchi with GP 5000 tubulars, weighing 8 lbs less. By your criteria, I must be worthless and weak, but I can certainly live with that just fine. If you would like to take my 86 for a spin, you are more than welcome to enjoy the beauty of Columbus steel. Lance would approve.
__________________
Road and Mountain 🚴🏾‍♂️



rsbob is offline  
Likes For rsbob:
Old 10-25-22, 08:32 PM
  #11  
amazinmets73
Full Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 377
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 169 Post(s)
Liked 25 Times in 19 Posts
I've always wanted to see the results of, say an 18lbs steel racing bike with modern components and rim brakes matched against a 17lbs carbon aero bike with discs. Same for a 10 year old top-of-the-line 16lbs rim brake carbon bike vs the latest disc brake carbon wonder bike. The fact that bike manufacturers are reluctant to conduct these tests caused me to suspect the results wouldn't be to the likings of their profit margins.

The modern bike industry is a scam so far as I'm concerned.
amazinmets73 is offline  
Likes For amazinmets73:
Old 10-25-22, 08:34 PM
  #12  
amazinmets73
Full Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 377
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 169 Post(s)
Liked 25 Times in 19 Posts
Originally Posted by rsbob View Post
Yesterday I weighed my steel ‘86 Bianchi Campione de Mundo and it came in at a ‘very svelte’ 25 lbs. Combine that with racing gears and the slowest of slow tires, Gatorskins and this girly man has one heck of a time pushing that bike as fast or far as my carbon Bianchi with GP 5000 tubulars, weighing 8 lbs less. By your criteria, I must be worthless and weak, but I can certainly live with that just fine. If you would like to take my 86 for a spin, you are more than welcome to enjoy the beauty of Columbus steel. Lance would approve.

For sure!
amazinmets73 is offline  
Old 10-25-22, 08:40 PM
  #13  
badger1
Senior Member
 
badger1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Southwestern Ontario
Posts: 4,727
Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1314 Post(s)
Liked 732 Times in 394 Posts
Originally Posted by amazinmets73 View Post
I've always wanted to see the results of, say an 18lbs steel racing bike with modern components and rim brakes matched against a 17lbs carbon aero bike with discs. Same for a 10 year old top-of-the-line 16lbs rim brake carbon bike vs the latest disc brake carbon wonder bike. The fact that bike manufacturers are reluctant to conduct these tests caused me to suspect the results wouldn't be to the likings of their profit margins.

The modern bike industry is a scam so far as I'm concerned.
Gosh Golly ... Gee Whiz ... couldn't have seen this 'conclusion' coming.

Well done!
badger1 is offline  
Old 10-25-22, 08:51 PM
  #14  
Koyote
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 6,558
Mentioned: 35 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5969 Post(s)
Liked 9,034 Times in 3,907 Posts
This is a fascinating thread. I mean, we've never discussed this sort of thing on bf before!
Koyote is offline  
Old 10-25-22, 09:01 PM
  #15  
amazinmets73
Full Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 377
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 169 Post(s)
Liked 25 Times in 19 Posts
Originally Posted by Koyote View Post
This is a fascinating thread. I mean, we've never discussed this sort of thing on bf before!
If you have other carbon vs metal bike tests I'd love to see them!
amazinmets73 is offline  
Likes For amazinmets73:
Old 10-25-22, 09:04 PM
  #16  
amazinmets73
Full Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 377
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 169 Post(s)
Liked 25 Times in 19 Posts
Not steel but this test returns the results I would expect: metal bikes lack the power transfer efficiency of carbon.

amazinmets73 is offline  
Old 10-25-22, 09:11 PM
  #17  
Koyote
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 6,558
Mentioned: 35 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5969 Post(s)
Liked 9,034 Times in 3,907 Posts
Originally Posted by amazinmets73 View Post
Not steel but this test returns the results I would expect: metal bikes lack the power transfer efficiency of carbon.
Well, that proves it! I mean, the guy rode some bikes down a hill and everything!
Koyote is offline  
Likes For Koyote:
Old 10-25-22, 09:23 PM
  #18  
amazinmets73
Full Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 377
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 169 Post(s)
Liked 25 Times in 19 Posts
Originally Posted by Koyote View Post
Well, that proves it! I mean, the guy rode some bikes down a hill and everything!
What's the deal with the unwarranted sarcasm? I'm merely curious as to the performance of bike frame materials. If the subject doesn't interest you, no problem, just move on...
amazinmets73 is offline  
Likes For amazinmets73:
Old 10-25-22, 09:31 PM
  #19  
Koyote
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 6,558
Mentioned: 35 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5969 Post(s)
Liked 9,034 Times in 3,907 Posts
Originally Posted by amazinmets73 View Post
What's the deal with the unwarranted sarcasm? I'm merely curious as to the performance of bike frame materials. If the subject doesn't interest you, no problem, just move on...
If you know the first thing about the scientific method, you know that the "test" in that video definitely warrants sarcasm. And your topic has been absolutely beaten to death here on bf and elsewhere.
Koyote is offline  
Likes For Koyote:
Old 10-25-22, 09:35 PM
  #20  
Atlas Shrugged
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 996
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 679 Post(s)
Liked 788 Times in 384 Posts
Originally Posted by skidder View Post
Another Carbon vs. Steel thread? Hold on while I get a few beers and some popcorn, will ya?

The fact that the OP liked your comment kind of says it all!
Atlas Shrugged is offline  
Likes For Atlas Shrugged:
Old 10-25-22, 09:44 PM
  #21  
amazinmets73
Full Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 377
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 169 Post(s)
Liked 25 Times in 19 Posts
Originally Posted by Koyote View Post
If you know the first thing about the scientific method, you know that the "test" in that video definitely warrants sarcasm. And your topic has been absolutely beaten to death here on bf and elsewhere.
Can you provide any more scientifically credible tests? Shouldn't be difficult if the topic has indeed been beaten to death.

Last edited by amazinmets73; 10-25-22 at 09:48 PM.
amazinmets73 is offline  
Likes For amazinmets73:
Old 10-25-22, 09:58 PM
  #22  
Koyote
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 6,558
Mentioned: 35 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5969 Post(s)
Liked 9,034 Times in 3,907 Posts
Originally Posted by amazinmets73 View Post
Can you provide any more scientifically credible tests? Shouldn't be difficult if the topic has indeed been beaten to death.
Not interested. Not in the slightest.
Koyote is offline  
Likes For Koyote:
Old 10-25-22, 10:03 PM
  #23  
amazinmets73
Full Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 377
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 169 Post(s)
Liked 25 Times in 19 Posts
Originally Posted by Koyote View Post
Not interested. Not in the slightest.
Right, exactly the response I expected.
amazinmets73 is offline  
Likes For amazinmets73:
Old 10-25-22, 10:05 PM
  #24  
Koyote
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 6,558
Mentioned: 35 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5969 Post(s)
Liked 9,034 Times in 3,907 Posts
Originally Posted by amazinmets73 View Post
Right, exactly the response I expected.
If that were true, you wouldn't have asked the question. But nice try. 'nighty-'night.
Koyote is offline  
Old 10-25-22, 10:12 PM
  #25  
Polaris OBark
ignominious poltroon
 
Polaris OBark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2022
Posts: 2,318
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1320 Post(s)
Liked 1,925 Times in 1,061 Posts
Originally Posted by amazinmets73 View Post
Can you provide any more scientifically credible tests? Shouldn't be difficult if the topic has indeed been beaten to death.
One thing that would help is multiple controlled repeats of the experiment, to establish some statistical significance to the claimed differences.

But before that, one would really need to have a properly controlled experiment. The biggest single flaw in the google doc is that the tires on the steel bike have vastly better rolling resistance than those on the carbon bike, so how do you know that you are measuring something other than the differences due to the tires?

Essentially, you want to change one thing only: frame material. Ideally, you would want to use the same wheels, tires and drive train. Several different routes, several different riders, etc. would also make things more compelling.

You are trying to test a very specific hypothesis: frame material is the only thing that matters. The rest of the bike should weigh the same, have the same air resistance, road resistance, pedaling resistance, etc. In practice, this is a very difficult thing to achieve.

If you see repeatable differences, it is most compelling to design a series of experiments to try to disprove the idea that the observed differences can be explained away by any other effect.

It is a lot harder, in other words, than what is presented in the google doc or that video.
Polaris OBark is offline  
Likes For Polaris OBark:

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2023 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.