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My energy has returned

Old 11-21-22, 09:52 PM
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My energy has returned

I have always been a supplement skeptic and had the point of view that (no, this is not an infomercial) that they were a complete waste of money/placebo and/or were ultimately unhealthy. After a year of close experimentation on yours truly, I have changed my mind and more importantly not died - as far as I can tell.

The three (actually four) are, drum roll please:

Multivitamin for active seniors (I can hear the gasps from here)
Beet root powder
HMB powder
Beta Alanine

For the longest time, about 6 months, I took the first three and didn’t notice any difference in energy (still felt the senior slows), but after adding the Beta Alanine (never tried as just a stand alone - so my methodology sucks) then I really started getting a fair percentage of my old energy back.

Placebo? Waste of money? Undo health risk? All I can address is the last one after extensive online research, is that after another six months use, none of the supplements showed health consequences. I am too chicken to experiment on myself with things like steroids, creatinine, testosterone supplements and other questionable dugs.

Of course everyone has a different metabolism or reaction to supplements so…. But I do know they have made a difference in the way I feel.

And the big question: Do they make me a stronger, faster, long endurance locomotive of a cyclist? Maybe just a little, but regardless I like the feeling (and I still am nailing PRs).
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Old 11-22-22, 03:45 AM
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Great News! Glad to year you re-inergized.
That siad, we must never discount the placebo effect.
Ride on young man.

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Old 11-22-22, 04:15 AM
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I’ll try just the Beta Alinine.
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Old 11-22-22, 05:15 AM
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Bob,
I switched out the beet powder and now use canned beets. A third of a can into the smoothie.
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Old 11-22-22, 05:35 AM
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whatever floats your boat
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Old 11-22-22, 05:37 AM
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Originally Posted by rsbob View Post
I am too chicken to experiment on myself with things like steroids, creatinine, testosterone supplements and other questionable dugs.
Not chicken, just wise!

Rather than experimenting with "supplements" I experiment a little with different foods and on-bike fuelling. There is so much low hanging fruit (see what I did there?) in just sorting out my basic daily diet that I don't even think about supplements. Referencing back to that book (The Midlife Cyclist) I think the only supplement recommended there was vitamin D, which I have tried and not noticed any obvious difference. But since the winter weather has set in I might go back to it as I do feel lacking in energy compared to the summer months.
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Old 11-22-22, 06:48 AM
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Caffeine works for many cyclists at all levels.
B12 is one I take sometimes and does seem to provide more energy and alertness.
Fueling your motor takes some experimenting to best work for the total body and hours of the bike.
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Old 11-22-22, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by PeteHski View Post
Not chicken, just wise!

Rather than experimenting with "supplements" I experiment a little with different foods and on-bike fuelling. There is so much low hanging fruit (see what I did there?) in just sorting out my basic daily diet that I don't even think about supplements. Referencing back to that book (The Midlife Cyclist) I think the only supplement recommended there was vitamin D, which I have tried and not noticed any obvious difference. But since the winter weather has set in I might go back to it as I do feel lacking in energy compared to the summer months.
Forgot to mention that since I have been taking Vit D for years. It is so part of my routine, I completely forgot about it. Am re-reading the Midlife Cyclist again. So much good info but a lot of non-value add to wade through.
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Old 11-22-22, 11:41 AM
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Good to hear!
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Old 11-22-22, 09:05 PM
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Originally Posted by rsbob View Post
...Placebo? Waste of money?...
Placebos work! People do better with placebos than with no treatment, which is why clinical trials compare potential treatments with placebos rather than compare them to no treatment. A treatment that works is not a waste of money, even if it is a placebo.
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Old 11-22-22, 09:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Random11 View Post
Placebos work! People do better with placebos than with no treatment, which is why clinical trials compare potential treatments with placebos rather than compare them to no treatment. A treatment that works is not a waste of money, even if it is a placebo.
Hence your user name - as in Randomized trials? Beats Double Blind.
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Old 11-23-22, 06:55 AM
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Thanks for sharing your experience w/ supplementation. It's definitely tricky to navigate the world of vitamins and supplements. I'm convinced that some of them actually do work and work well while others certainly are a complete waste of money.

It's my opinion that you should consider doing a bit more research on the multivitamin. What brand are you using? Most inexpensive brands, like Centrum Senior and the like, are made of low quality, non-bioavailable ingredients (i.e., your body won't use 'em) and are usually at the top of the "total waste of money" list. I used to take a multivitamin in hopes that it would "fill in the gaps" in my diet but have since opted to get most vitamins through better diet and only supplement those that are hard to get through food, like D3. Labdoor is a good place to start when evaluating supplements, although one could argue even their site has some bias as they do sell supplements:

https://labdoor.com/rankings/multivitamins
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Old 11-23-22, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by PoorInRichfield View Post
Thanks for sharing your experience w/ supplementation. It's definitely tricky to navigate the world of vitamins and supplements. I'm convinced that some of them actually do work and work well while others certainly are a complete waste of money.

It's my opinion that you should consider doing a bit more research on the multivitamin. What brand are you using? Most inexpensive brands, like Centrum Senior and the like, are made of low quality, non-bioavailable ingredients (i.e., your body won't use 'em) and are usually at the top of the "total waste of money" list. I used to take a multivitamin in hopes that it would "fill in the gaps" in my diet but have since opted to get most vitamins through better diet and only supplement those that are hard to get through food, like D3. Labdoor is a good place to start when evaluating supplements, although one could argue even their site has some bias as they do sell supplements:

https://labdoor.com/rankings/multivitamins
Very interesting. My brand is not listed (Didn’t make the list?) but is from the a health food store that doesn’t go with leading commercial products. No reviews other than from consumers which give it 4.5 - 5 which can be meaningless.

Solaray Once Daily Active Man Multivitamin & Mineral, Multivitamin for Cardiovascular, Support, Energy & Focus, Digestive Enzyme Blend, Amino Acids and Whole Food Base, 90 Servings, 90 VegCaps.
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Old 11-24-22, 10:52 AM
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IME the only maybe on the OP's list is the multi. The other stuff definitely works, maybe not exactly by performance? IOW if you take the supps for a couple days and then don't for a couple days, is your performance noticeably different between those two periods? Maybe not. I think there's more of a cumulative effect. Being able to go a little bit harder every day, even if it's only a little bit, adds up over the weeks. A little bit better recovery adds up, even a little bit. My saying is that "supplements are a feather, training is the hammer." Meaning that if one takes advantage of those little bits of improvement by bringing it on, those feathers add up. Otherwise not.

Creatine is totally safe, probably the safest and most studied supplement there is, but results have the same caveats as in the above discussion. I've been taking it daily for over 20 years, not dead yet. So far this fall, I've been on a slightly different regimen, going to the gym 3X week and riding my rollers also on most of those gym days. I'm putting on muscle and at the same time slowly losing weight.

No steroids here either! Testosterone supplements which work - maybe Tongkat Ali. Definitely works on male rats!
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Old 11-25-22, 07:34 AM
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Originally Posted by PoorInRichfield View Post
..
low quality, non-bioavailable ingredients
Where does Labdoor list the bioavalibility test results of multivitamins?
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Old 11-25-22, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by BTinNYC View Post
Where does Labdoor list the bioavalibility test results of multivitamins?
Bioavailability isn't one of the benchmarks they test for. Bioavailability is a very complex topic that makes it very hard to simply state, "this supplement is highly bioavailable", especially considering that multivitamins combine a long list of vitamins together that can all perform differently in one's body depending on a long list of variables.

If you search PubMed, you'll find there are a lot of papers regarding research being conducted on the bioavailability of various supplements in vary specific scenarios with varying conclusions... or no good conclusion at all. Hence, it's my opinion that it's in one's best interest to improve one's own diet by eating whole foods (more organic vegetables, more healthy fats, etc.) and only go down the supplement rabbit hole if one finds an actual deficiency in one's diet that is actually causing a problem.
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Old 11-25-22, 10:17 AM
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When you get your annual, your doc will check the results of your blood test. If you're low on something, supplements will have an effect. I used to be low on D. I think lots of folks in the PNW see that. So I followed my doc's rec and supplemented D3 in the quantity he advised. Problem solved. I'm supposed to have copper for my eyes. OK, how much copper is in your diet? So I take a supplement, so far so good. I have age-related macular degeneration, the dry kind. Very common. There's a list of test supplements which worked in studies. I started taking them. My eyes have not deteriorated further. Yeah sure, put your trust in your vegetables that everything's going to be fine? And find out a few years later that you were wrong? Or take some preventative. It's not as disastrous have having the rhythm method fail, but it's still not good.

40 years ago, I started having pain in my knees while descending mountain trails on hikes and backpacks. I tried ibuprofen, which made it worse over time. I did some research, started taking glucosamine sulphate and MSM. Knee pain went away and 40 years later, I can do anything I want, no knee pain, nada. So I was going to stop doing things which made my knees hurt and not spend that $100/year and keep active? I don't think so.

I used to have old person bruises on my forearms. Very common. I started taking vitamin K. No more bruises.

Stuff happens. There are ways to fix most everything. Ideology does not rule. Practicum rules. Just look around and see all the damage caused by ideology.
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Old 11-25-22, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
When you get your annual, your doc will check the results of your blood test. If you're low on something, supplements will have an effect. I used to be low on D. I think lots of folks in the PNW see that. So I followed my doc's rec and supplemented D3 in the quantity he advised. Problem solved. I'm supposed to have copper for my eyes. OK, how much copper is in your diet? So I take a supplement, so far so good. I have age-related macular degeneration, the dry kind. Very common. There's a list of test supplements which worked in studies. I started taking them. My eyes have not deteriorated further. Yeah sure, put your trust in your vegetables that everything's going to be fine? And find out a few years later that you were wrong? Or take some preventative. It's not as disastrous have having the rhythm method fail, but it's still not good.

40 years ago, I started having pain in my knees while descending mountain trails on hikes and backpacks. I tried ibuprofen, which made it worse over time. I did some research, started taking glucosamine sulphate and MSM. Knee pain went away and 40 years later, I can do anything I want, no knee pain, nada. So I was going to stop doing things which made my knees hurt and not spend that $100/year and keep active? I don't think so.

I used to have old person bruises on my forearms. Very common. I started taking vitamin K. No more bruises.

Stuff happens. There are ways to fix most everything. Ideology does not rule. Practicum rules. Just look around and see all the damage caused by ideology.
Too funny... I also supplement with D3, K2, and glucosamine for a nagging knee issue. Those three, in addition to magnesium are on my "short list" of supplements that I've taken that actually improved my life in a detectable way.
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Old 11-25-22, 12:26 PM
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I posted some new HMB info in the geezer forum:
https://www.bikeforums.net/fifty-plu...l#post22720932
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Old 11-25-22, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by rsbob View Post
...been a supplement skeptic and had the point of view that (no, this is not an infomercial) that they were a complete waste of money/placebo and/or were ultimately unhealthy.
Texas A&M's Veterinary branch did a study on B vitamins. I remember hearing of the study in the 90's and it must not have been nationally published, or failed to get into the Human Medical Journals because I can't find it. Modern day man is commonly beneficent in B complexes and Iron. The study involved testing samples of buried humans over the past 150 years. Anyway... what was interesting was the major incidence of B vitamin deficiency started around 1910 in the USA and is possibly related to the advent of refrigeration of meat. Iron deficiency was noted to have a spike around the 1950's and possibly related to the decrease of fresh vegetables in the common diet. We do know that right before meat "Turns", develops a bitter taste but not spoiled by bacteria, it is full of B vitamins. We also know that fresh vegetables probably have a little more dirt on them when getting to the kitchen. Anyway... Until I find the publication this is all hearsay.

I am no longer a skeptic of vitamin supplementation. For a fact, I have found more and more of my patients with vitamin deficiencies. And, not just the geezers who have lost the enzymes in thier gut necessary to absorb thier food. All ages are experiencing vitamin deficiency. Yes, even people who are fastidious in thier diet. I suspect that it is just the food we are eating for sure. So whats the answer? Well of course Home Grown Food raised and butchered and picked right off the range... Ha.

It has to be supplements. Here is a conservative list that I give my over 50 healthy patients.

Vit C
Omega 3's (fish oil)
Calcium-Magnesium-Zinc Complex
B Complex
Live Lacto Bacillus (butter milk or BioSalude)
So what is the proper dosage... Ha... Who knows? To be sure most of the vitamin supplements we take are just wasted down the toilet. Some days you may need the Calcium, others the Zinc. It varies.

Here is a list I use in my over 60 onset osteoarthritic healthy males
Vit C
Omega 3's (fish oil)
Calcium-Magnesium-Zinc Complex
B Complex
Live Lacto Bacillus
Glucosamine/Chondroitin
Vit D
Niacin
Note: I am not a nutritionist. I am an old retired military PA-C working part time in a rural community Family Practice. Feel free to PM me. I have lots of time...
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Old 11-26-22, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by rumrunn6 View Post
whatever floats your boat

or fleets your beet?
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Old 11-26-22, 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted by zandoval View Post
Texas A&M's Veterinary branch did a study on B vitamins. I remember hearing of the study in the 90's and it must not have been nationally published, or failed to get into the Human Medical Journals because I can't find it. Modern day man is commonly beneficent in B complexes and Iron. The study involved testing samples of buried humans over the past 150 years. Anyway... what was interesting was the major incidence of B vitamin deficiency started around 1910 in the USA and is possibly related to the advent of refrigeration of meat. (snip)
More hearsay . . . I saw a recent article discussing exhuming wealthy English folks from some time in the Middle Ages. The article explaining the findings said that while most folks now assume that those individuals consumed a lot of meat, mostly from watching films, the evidence was that in reality they dipped their bread in vegetable soup just like everyone else. The conjecture was that meat was very expensive at that time for everyone and wasn't to be wasted through overconsumption. Lords paid attention to their ledgers. As we should know, meat is vastly underpriced now, because the externalities of meat production are ignored. Back then, they couldn't do that. And I saw an article today, explaining that Neanderthals ate legumes.
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Old 11-27-22, 01:50 PM
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The more likely explanations of vitamin B deficiency:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19892133/
or
https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...72975208021301

Simply due to processed grain, hulled rice, white flour and the like. That's what's behind the movement toward "natural foods." Of course Texas A&M thought it was meat related! As it was sung, "we get the government we deserve."

That said, I do take a sublingual B12, not being a meat eater. OTOH:
https://bbarrx.com/blog/2018/7/20/b1...not-the-answer
more realistically
https://academic.oup.com/nutritionre.../2/106/1820655
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Old 11-27-22, 07:11 PM
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Thanks for reporting what works for you.

I take a multi-vitamin and (Ester) vitamin C on general principle, D3 and magnesium on my doctor's recommendation, plus Biotin and occasionally HMB with my doctor's knowledge.

I also consume yogurts with live cultures.

Interesting about Beta Alanine. I'm curious how much HMB you take..
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Old 11-27-22, 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Fredo76 View Post
Thanks for reporting what works for you.

I take a multi-vitamin and (Ester) vitamin C on general principle, D3 and magnesium on my doctor's recommendation, plus Biotin and occasionally HMB with my doctor's knowledge.

I also consume yogurts with live cultures.

Interesting about Beta Alanine. I'm curious how much HMB you take..
Recent studies all used the same protocol: 3g/day, 1g 30' before exercise, 1g 30' after exercise, 1g 3 hours after exercise. That does seem to work best IME. Which raises another question: if one is doing 2-a-days should one repeat that dosage for the second exercise bout, usually some hours after the first one? I've been doing strength in the morning and bike in the late afternoon. I've been repeating the dosage on those days, but not sure if it's necessary.
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