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How Much New is Too Much for You?

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How Much New is Too Much for You?

Old 04-06-22, 11:41 AM
  #51  
Trakhak
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
I think he had a point, but Petersen's book is nearing its 10th anniversary, and there's been all sorts of non-racer trends in the industry since then. He was also a bit incoherent in message in that his bikes are definitely way too expensive for mass appeal.
Petersen's anti-racer diatribes conveniently avoid mention of the fact that racing bike sales all but disappeared between the late '80s and late '90s because MTBs took over the market, after hundreds of thousands of people discovered how comfortable, durable, and easy to operate they were. Those, as well as well-designed hybrids, won the war that Grant was and is still trying to wage. Inconvenient, when you're trying to sell decades-old non-indexing Japanese derailleurs and, as you say, absurdly expensive sport touring bikes.

Last edited by Trakhak; 04-06-22 at 11:45 AM.
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Old 04-06-22, 11:46 AM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by qwaalodge
While a car's gearbox is way more difficult to service indeed (as reference), in my 20 years of driving, 100,000 miles at most in one car, I never broke one. The only work ever done was change or top up the oil.

The cost have less to do with development cost and complexity but more to do with the configuration's share of the market and the weight. If the tech can be made mainstream with high volume production and if using inexpensive materials like unforged steel and aluminum, it can be made cheap. It will be heavy but remember, the tech is catered towards utility, commuters who cares a lot less about speed than maintenance.
Often times, when I ride the bicycle, I will not carry much with me. I definitely will not carry a spare battery or spare parts to assist in getting back to the destination. Whereas a general car, they have a regenerative electronics system that can maintain the battery while in use. Kind of important for the range they can cover too.
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Old 04-06-22, 11:54 AM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by Rolla
Over the last several years, I've seen the light on tubeless tires, thru-axles, dropper posts, and hydraulic disc brakes -- to the point where I can't ever imagine buying a bike that doesn't have these features. But I'm still retro-grouchy about a lot of other things, like carbon frames and wheels, suspension stems, Strava, power meters, and electronic shifting. It's conceivable that I'll eventually come around to some of them, but I'm way past my racing days and I'm quite happy being a steel frame/alloy wheel/cable-actuated luddite.

So I'm curious: What's your limit on bike technology, if you have one? Where do you draw the line on the newfangled, and what old-school stuff do you remain devoted to?

No need to argue, persuade, or ridicule, btw -- we can all respect each other's preferences, right?
Mostly, money draws the line for me. Hence, no electronic shifting or power meter, or for that matter lightweight carbon wheels. I suppose if I hadn't spent so much money and time on a collection of older bikes, I could afford a new CF bike with Di2, a power meter, and lightweight carbon wheels, but then I wouldn't have the joy of riding my older bikes. And it's not like I'm such a fast, powerful rider that I push the limits on the bikes I have.
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Old 04-06-22, 11:55 AM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by Rolla
...What's your limit on bike technology...
Ha... That's an easy one...

It's the BUCKS! $$$$

But also it's my personal ability to adjust and repair. I am not afraid of new tech but I abhor proprietary tools, and adjustments. If I can't build, fix or adjust it myself then it's not for me...
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Old 04-06-22, 12:01 PM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by zandoval
Ha... That's an easy one...

It's the BUCKS! $$$$

But also it's my personal ability to adjust and repair. I am not afraid of new tech but I abhor proprietary tools, and adjustments. If I can't build, fix or adjust it myself then it's not for me...
What if the part or parts are readily available, very affordable, & are made well enough to not be a reliability concern, but it is not able to be serviced or sustained by the individual? Essentially a throw away part once it's used up.

If I could buy a complete set of wheels to my liking, outfitted with my choice of tires too, for under $65 shipped to my door....... I would toss out the truing stand!
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Old 04-06-22, 12:01 PM
  #56  
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What's your limit on bike technology, if you have one? Where do you draw the line on the newfangled, and what old-school stuff do you remain devoted to?
Quite frankly, I'm not just old school, I'm near retirement also. I don't really "get in to" all of the new tech, unless the over-sized wonder steel Reynolds tubes on my Wabi's count as "new tech". I lean more on finding new tech components for my "old tech" bikes. I just like the ride of steel with modern components that make the bike look interesting and ride better.
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Old 04-06-22, 01:03 PM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by qwaalodge
While a car's gearbox is way more difficult to service indeed (as reference), in my 20 years of driving, 100,000 miles at most in one car, I never broke one. The only work ever done was change or top up the oil.

The cost have less to do with development cost and complexity but more to do with the configuration's share of the market and the weight. If the tech can be made mainstream with high volume production and if using inexpensive materials like unforged steel and aluminum, it can be made cheap. It will be heavy but remember, the tech is catered towards utility, commuters who cares a lot less about speed than maintenance.

I think we should respect OP's wishes that we stick to the thread topic, so I won't be going any further down this rabbit hole.
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Old 04-06-22, 02:08 PM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by Rolla
What's your limit on bike technology, if you have one? Where do you draw the line on the newfangled, and what old-school stuff do you remain devoted to?
A good question, Rolla. I am riding a custom steel bike from 1990 that came with 7-speed bar-end shifters, a triple crank and 19mm tires. I stopped upgrading the drive train at 9sp and there it remains, but I did make the big leap to STI about five years ago, and 650b wheels for fatter tires three years ago. It rides well, and I am satisfied with it.

I have no aversion to new tech. Were anything to happen to the current bike, either by accident or unavailability of parts, I'd be happy to replace it with a new bike with current technology. But the only current bike tech that I'd actually be jazzed about would be electronic shifting; everything else, such as more speeds and disc brakes, would only be an incremental improvement if any, and so I don't care about it.

At this point in life, I can have what I want, but I'd rather want what I have.

It's good topic!
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Old 04-06-22, 02:41 PM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by BCDrums
I did make the big leap to STI about five years ago, and 650b wheels for fatter tires three years ago.
650B X 47 (especially tubeless) has been a huge improvement to my riding. If I could, I'd run them on every bike I own.

Originally Posted by BCDrums
the only current bike tech that I'd actually be jazzed about would be electronic shifting; everything else, such as more speeds and disc brakes, would only be an incremental improvement if any, and so I don't care about it.
Funny -- I feel exactly the opposite; electronic shifting seems incremental to me, but hydraulic discs have been a game-changer!

Originally Posted by BCDrums
It's good topic!
Thank you!
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Old 04-06-22, 03:04 PM
  #60  
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Nothing is too new and I do want electronic shifting but I want is open source so when that gets better I’ll probably switch to it
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Old 04-06-22, 03:05 PM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by BCDrums
But the only current bike tech that I'd actually be jazzed about would be electronic shifting;
Originally Posted by Rolla
Funny -- I feel exactly the opposite; electronic shifting seems incremental to me, but hydraulic discs have been a game-changer!
I'm interested in electronic shifting because I like small steps in my gearing, and that means a double shift, front and rear, at some point to stay in sequence. As I understand it, Di2 can make this double shift precisely at the correct point in the shifting sequence without me having to think about it. The double shift is hardly a big deal, I have done this manually for decades, but that's the one thing that I don't have that I might appreciate; that I press a button, and the software makes the double shift.
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Old 04-06-22, 03:30 PM
  #62  
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Bikes, boats, motorcycles, airplanes, you can never have enough!

Each of the above has a wide variety of models to choose from for everything from going slow to going fast, from using for work or commuting, to cruising to racing, so what really matters is that you pick the right tool for the job.

You don’t want to do a century on a beach cruiser and you don’t want to take a TT bike into the woods, so it all comes down to; how much money you got to spend on this stuff? I started seriously riding road bikes at age 23 in 1982 on a used Raleigh Record I bought at a bike shop for $85, wish my mom hadn’t sold it at a yard sale 20 years ago! I next moved up to a Bianchi Limited I bought new in 1985 for $600, I still have it but only ride it on our Friendly Friday group rides. In 2015 after suffering through a triathlon on the old Bianchi, I broke down and finally got a TT bike, Trek Speed Concept, around $3K and a year later I added an Emonda SLR, ($3.5K) then upgraded to 60mm carbon wheels ($2,200).

I love the advances in technology, the lighter carbon frames and wheels, aero shapes, disc brakes, I even ditched my Cateye for a Garmin 530 with heart rate and power meter but all that fancy stuff costs more money, no doubt. It’s all worth it if you have the money available. It only took me 30+ years to get to that point!

One new technology that shocked me though, electric shifting! (Yes, pun intended!). A year ago buddy of mine dropped well over $6K on a new Trek Madone with electric shifting and 3 times in the past year it has failed during a ride, and every time we were 50+ miles from home! That’s a long hard ride home stuck in one big gear with hills to climb! In each case it wasn’t a dead battery but a software update that needed to be done….only can do it at the bike shop, where the special connector is. (insert eye roll).

Last summer he was riding across the USA and about halfway the thing crapped out on him again! After wasting a whole day taking everything apart they found a frayed wire inside the frame that was causing it to short out and not shift.

So yeah….advanced technology is great right up until it stops working and you don’t have a backup system available! Then it really sucks! My 37yr old steel Bianchi has never let me down, stuck in a big gear at the bottom of a big climb, like my buddy’s new Madone has done to him, 3 times!
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Old 04-06-22, 03:36 PM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by BCDrums
I'm interested in electronic shifting because I like small steps in my gearing, and that means a double shift, front and rear, at some point to stay in sequence. As I understand it, Di2 can make this double shift precisely at the correct point in the shifting sequence without me having to think about it. The double shift is hardly a big deal, I have done this manually for decades, but that's the one thing that I don't have that I might appreciate; that I press a button, and the software makes the double shift.
No doubt about it, "effortless" really is the best word to describe electronic shifting, and the allure of sequential gear increments is mighty powerful. But as illustrated by A350driver (above), I don't want to have to rely on batteries and software to make my bike work; I have a hard enough time remembering to charge my lights.
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Old 04-06-22, 03:45 PM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by Rolla

So I'm curious: What's your limit on bike technology, if you have one? Where do you draw the line on the newfangled, and what old-school stuff do you remain devoted to?
No power meter, no carbon, no electronic shifting, no tubeless tires, no clipless pedals, no strava, no thru-axles, no bibs....I am happy and satisfied with my steel framed bikes, with single speed drivetrains, mechanical disc brakes and regular tires and 135mm hub spacing with nutted axles...You get the idea ??....I am the same way with vehicles. My pick up truck doesn't have power windows, no power door locks, no infotainment system, no GPS, no back up camera..
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Old 04-06-22, 04:05 PM
  #65  
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I’m all about reliability, because I want to get home on time! 3-4 hours in the saddle is enough, I don’t want to be working on the bike on the side of the road in the hot sun in the middle of a long ride. Fixing a flat is enough work, I don’t want to be rebuilding the drive train! I wonder why the designers of electronic shifting didn’t make some type of a release button on the derailleur so you could move it manually to another gear if the electronics fail.
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Old 04-06-22, 04:16 PM
  #66  
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Originally Posted by A350driver
I’m all about reliability, because I want to get home on time! 3-4 hours in the saddle is enough, I don’t want to be working on the bike on the side of the road in the hot sun in the middle of a long ride. Fixing a flat is enough work, I don’t want to be rebuilding the drive train! I wonder why the designers of electronic shifting didn’t make some type of a release button on the derailleur so you could move it manually to another gear if the electronics fail.
I suppose you could summon one of those robot dogs to bring you a fresh battery -- like the St. Bernards in cartoons.

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Old 04-06-22, 05:26 PM
  #67  
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As long as that barrel around his neck is filled with IPA, I’m all in!
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Old 04-06-22, 05:38 PM
  #68  
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Originally Posted by Trakhak
Petersen's anti-racer diatribes conveniently avoid mention of the fact that racing bike sales all but disappeared between the late '80s and late '90s because MTBs took over the market, after hundreds of thousands of people discovered how comfortable, durable, and easy to operate they were. Those, as well as well-designed hybrids, won the war that Grant was and is still trying to wage. Inconvenient, when you're trying to sell decades-old non-indexing Japanese derailleurs and, as you say, absurdly expensive sport touring bikes.
I completely agree with GP that the influence of pro road racing was counterproductive to getting more people on bikes and enjoying them.

Up until gravel bikes and endurance road bikes hit the market in the last ten years, the default “road” bike was a road racing bike. This is what basically anyone looking to do road riding was told was the proper bike to do it on. Road riding culture (along with the bikes marketed for it) was obsessed with imitating pro racing, even when it made little sense to do so, and made the experience miserable for many people.

Trying to find a high quality bike 10 years ago that filled the niche that GP was going for (a road bike with relaxed geo, reasonable gearing that could take big tires) did not leave you many options. I know this first hand, as I was looking for a “Poor Man’s Rivendell” in 2011 to replace my road racing bike. For the most part you had CX bikes, crappy hybrids, and touring bikes. The latter was close, but not quite it. I ended up getting a Salsa Casseroll. By the time I went to replace the Cass in 2017, I had literally dozens of choices. A lot changed in those 6 years.

GP really was pushing something that was not mainstream at the time, but has since become so. He was not pushing anything new (he never claimed to be) he was actually pushing for a return to a sensible approach to bikes.

And thankfull, this has been happening. And a large part of that has been people paying less attention to professional road racing and more attention to how and where people actually ride their bikes.

The best thing that ever happened to MTB development was the decline of the influence of XC racing in the late 90s and early 2000s. That is when mtbs started really advancing. It is good to see the same thing happening for road bikes.

Of course there is the issue of his allergies to disc brakes and thread-less steerers which in my mind was just plain silly.

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Old 04-06-22, 08:05 PM
  #69  
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I mean nothing new is really too much. Yeah some of it can be a little silly sometimes but in the end it comes out with useful stuff at the end,
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Old 04-06-22, 09:20 PM
  #70  
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Originally Posted by Rolla
No doubt about it, "effortless" really is the best word to describe electronic shifting, and the allure of sequential gear increments is mighty powerful. But as illustrated by A350driver (above), I don't want to have to rely on batteries and software to make my bike work; I have a hard enough time remembering to charge my lights.
Ive ran into a handful of people who were stuck in a certain gear because of electronic shifting. Heck. in the house im staying at now there was a high end MTB hanging unused for months because of the exact problem
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Old 04-06-22, 09:58 PM
  #71  
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Originally Posted by Troul
Often times, when I ride the bicycle, I will not carry much with me. I definitely will not carry a spare battery or spare parts to assist in getting back to the destination. Whereas a general car, they have a regenerative electronics system that can maintain the battery while in use. Kind of important for the range they can cover too.
Things would have been a lot different if the big bike companies and UCI would partner in developing and promoting economy-oriented bikes.

I often have to mention the automotive industry because they often partner with FIA (The UCI counterpart in motorsports) and effectively promote BOTH their performance category products and economy products. They promote their economy products through rally race events which is quite popular around the world.

The cycling industry's concept of "economy" is a rugged, low cost bike with very low maintenance. Unfortunately, in the cycling industry, it only comes in one flavor, in the Dutch or cruiser category. Granted, the belt + IGH drivetrain bikes is the closest we can have to an ideal economy bike with more flavors to choose from like MTB, road, and gravel, bike companies and UCI doesn't promote them enough to become mainstream to make more affordable to the average (low income) commuter. I think they worry more about the drivetrain being heavier and average speeds dropping a bit. They seem to lack the creativity to promote rugged and low maintenance bikes. For instance, you can put them in a different road racing category with significantly higher minimum weight to account for the drivetrain, heavier-duty components, and the use of wider tires. Like a similar road racing event to TdF but with limited support and routes with poor quality roads to test the bike to the limits in terms of durability and reliability. It will also be similar to a gravel race but with more paved roads involved and the bikes being more rugged and heavier.

Plenty of possibilities to greatly expand our choices in terms of bike tech and cost. It's only a matter of promotion as people are rather very easily manipulated in how they think, what they believe they need by big companies.


.

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Old 04-06-22, 11:11 PM
  #72  
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Granted I'm old, so I might be a bit against things due to my age.

But the biggest thing that for me is too new is electronic shifting, I think it's an unnecessary complication for a bicycle, all it really does is drive up the cost to buy a bike, and later to service it, not to mention the average life of the battery is hovering at 3 years, and they cost around $100 to replace, it's an added expense that isn't necessary. I have already heard of someone on another forum that had Di2 since 2012. He wrote the post back in 2017 saying that he was having trouble locating a replacement part, which means now it's probably impossible, he was told he would have to replace the entire system, he was not happy. I've heard of complaints of issues with the software going crazy and they had to take the bikes in to get them reflashed. There is a slew of problems I've heard about, so I'll just stay far away from electronic shifting.

The only other issue is disk brakes on road bikes, I have no problem with them on touring, gravel, hybrid, and mountain bikes, but it doesn't seem necessary on a road bike. There are a lot of reasons why on a road bike it doesn't make much sense, but I'm out of time to start listing.
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Old 04-07-22, 12:11 AM
  #73  
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Originally Posted by rekmeyata
The only other issue is disk brakes on road bikes, I have no problem with them on touring, gravel, hybrid, and mountain bikes, but it doesn't seem necessary on a road bike. There are a lot of reasons why on a road bike it doesn't make much sense, but I'm out of time to start listing.
If disc brakes are useful on all those other bikes, I would think they'd be useful on a road bike, where the speeds are higher. But I've never ridden a road bike with disc brakes, as you presumably have.
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Old 04-07-22, 03:18 AM
  #74  
Herzlos
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Originally Posted by Rolla
If disc brakes are useful on all those other bikes, I would think they'd be useful on a road bike, where the speeds are higher. But I've never ridden a road bike with disc brakes, as you presumably have.
Disc brakes are standard on a lot of road bikes these days at all ends of the scale. Some still have rim brake models or options because they are a bit lighter and can be a bit more aero, but they are getting harder to find.
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Old 04-07-22, 04:32 AM
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Trakhak
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Originally Posted by Kapusta
I completely agree with GP that the influence of pro road racing was counterproductive to getting more people on bikes and enjoying them.

Up until gravel bikes and endurance road bikes hit the market in the last ten years, the default “road” bike was a road racing bike. This is what basically anyone looking to do road riding was told was the proper bike to do it on. Road riding culture (along with the bikes marketed for it) was obsessed with imitating pro racing, even when it made little sense to do so, and made the experience miserable for many people.

Trying to find a high quality bike 10 years ago that filled the niche that GP was going for (a road bike with relaxed geo, reasonable gearing that could take big tires) did not leave you many options. I know this first hand, as I was looking for a “Poor Man’s Rivendell” in 2011 to replace my road racing bike. For the most part you had CX bikes, crappy hybrids, and touring bikes. The latter was close, but not quite it. I ended up getting a Salsa Casseroll. By the time I went to replace the Cass in 2017, I had literally dozens of choices. A lot changed in those 6 years.

GP really was pushing something that was not mainstream at the time, but has since become so. He was not pushing anything new (he never claimed to be) he was actually pushing for a return to a sensible approach to bikes.

And thankfull, this has been happening. And a large part of that has been people paying less attention to professional road racing and more attention to how and where people actually ride their bikes.

The best thing that ever happened to MTB development was the decline of the influence of XC racing in the late 90s and early 2000s. That is when mtbs started really advancing. It is good to see the same thing happening for road bikes.

Of course there is the issue of his allergies to disc brakes and thread-less steerers which in my mind was just plain silly.
The advent of gravel bikes and the like had nothing to do with Grant P.'s pushing his niche non-racing bikes and everything to do with U.S. bike racers becoming fascinated by cyclocross racing, a sport that originated in Europe in 1902. U.S. cyclocross, having become a dominant segment of the bike racing scene in this country, then begat gravel racing and purpose-built gravel bikes.

And endurance bikes are road racing bikes that still look the part but are optimized for aging riders who have put on a little too much weight. Again, nothing to do with GP. (And, by the way, not sure what the decline of XC mountain bike racing has to do with this topic.)

Grant P.'s main accomplishment, from the point of view of a guy who got into racing bikes in the early '60s and has enjoyed tracking all the subsequent trends in the industry as they came and went, was that he persuaded a small coterie of acolytes that they're actually secretly cooler than the bike racers that they had hitherto felt intimidated by. It's geeks versus jocks.

And that was a stroke of genius on his part. Guys who remembered the feeling of being invisible to the cool kids in high school only to find themselves in the same position all over again rallied to Grant's flag. Some of the worst trolls here outside of Politics and Religion are the guys (and they're all guys, it would seem) who, lacking the considerable rhetorical skill of Grant himself, deliver themselves of unnuanced, bilious diatribes against carbon, aluminum, lycra, electric shifting, derailleurs, hybrids, any bike that isn't a recumbent, any bike that isn't a Dutch bike, etc., etc., etc.

That antagonism is, I believe, Petersen's primary legacy, and that's what I dislike about Rivendell and its effect on the cycling community in this country. Bike riding in the U.S. is tough enough, when all of us feel targets on our backs when we're out there contending with drivers who believe we have no right to take up room on "their" roads. Dividing us from within serves no purpose.
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