First Tandem - Recommendations / Thoughts?
#26
Full Member
Standard compartment spacing often results in a stoker's head being too close to the captain, affecting vision and standing while pedaling. This spacing probably has had its origins in aerodynamics for racing. But most stokers could care less about racing and would prefer another few inches to enhance enjoyment of the ride
When we were specifying our 1999 Co-Motion Speedster, we opted to increase the stoker compartment by 2 inches from the default geometry as my stoker used an unusually narrow Cinelli handlebar at the time. Moving the bar backwards was necessary to avoid interference with my hips.
By the time we bought our Co-Motion Macchiato in 2017, the off-the-shelf stoker compartment length was the same as our previous custom geometry.
Interestingly, perhaps the longest stoker compartments I can remember were on the Hooker time trial tandems from the 1990's. These tandems allowed the stokers to achieve a low, flat, and narrow position tucked behind the captain.
#27
Mad bike riding scientist
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 27,341
Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, a black and orange one, and a few titanium ones
Mentioned: 152 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6200 Post(s)
Liked 4,201 Times
in
2,357 Posts
I'm still here I got a little quiet waiting in the background for the sizing discussion to simmer down, but it was helpful for me to read various thoughts on the subject. Thank you for the tip about the Cannondale road tandem in Madison. My wife and I find ourselves up in that area maybe once a year or so. I will keep it in mind
~ Jake
~ Jake
I do have a new hypothesis…I ponder while I wander…on why people keep putting small riders on the wrong size bike. That small bikes aren’t available is a large part of the problem but I’m beginning to think that most bike shops that deal with small people are dealing with children. They will put a child on a bike that is a bit too large so that they can “grow into it”. When a small person (usually a woman) comes along, they kick into kid mode and figure that the rider with “grow into the bike”. It’s not necessarily a conscious thought but due to them dealing with more kids than small people.
__________________
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
#28
just another gosling
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 19,527
Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004
Mentioned: 115 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3885 Post(s)
Liked 1,938 Times
in
1,383 Posts
It's more likely the small stoker compartments seen on older tandems were a result of the limited tubing choices and the design knowledge available. Small stoker compartments were used to avoid overly "whippy" tandems. As tandem manufacturers gained experience (and had better design tools and tubing choices available), options for stoker compartment size improved.
When we were specifying our 1999 Co-Motion Speedster, we opted to increase the stoker compartment by 2 inches from the default geometry as my stoker used an unusually narrow Cinelli handlebar at the time. Moving the bar backwards was necessary to avoid interference with my hips.
By the time we bought our Co-Motion Macchiato in 2017, the off-the-shelf stoker compartment length was the same as our previous custom geometry.
Interestingly, perhaps the longest stoker compartments I can remember were on the Hooker time trial tandems from the 1990's. These tandems allowed the stokers to achieve a low, flat, and narrow position tucked behind the captain.
When we were specifying our 1999 Co-Motion Speedster, we opted to increase the stoker compartment by 2 inches from the default geometry as my stoker used an unusually narrow Cinelli handlebar at the time. Moving the bar backwards was necessary to avoid interference with my hips.
By the time we bought our Co-Motion Macchiato in 2017, the off-the-shelf stoker compartment length was the same as our previous custom geometry.
Interestingly, perhaps the longest stoker compartments I can remember were on the Hooker time trial tandems from the 1990's. These tandems allowed the stokers to achieve a low, flat, and narrow position tucked behind the captain.
__________________
Results matter
Results matter
#29
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Northern CA
Posts: 741
Bikes: Cannondale tandems: '92 Road, '97 Mtn. Mongoose 10.9 Ti, Kelly Deluxe, Tommaso Chorus, Cdale MT2000, Schwinn Deluxe Cruiser, Torker Unicycle, among others.
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 279 Post(s)
Liked 205 Times
in
129 Posts
The flipside to the OP's concerns are an irrational obsession with standover height. I've seen 5' 10" guys on 16" mountain bikes because some nitwit told them how "really, REALLY important standover height is!" When you compromise fit and ergonomics for some crazy obsession with top tube clearance, you've lost the battle.
Do you spend hours ON your bike riding it, or standing over it? Comfort ON the bike is paramount.
And if you do come off, how much difference will two whole centimeters make? Not much. And with sloping top tubes, a frame two centimeters smaller DOESN'T have two centimeters more clearance at the front of the top tube. The difference is usually nominal, so you aren't getting really any benefit at all.
And crashing at speed? Two cm of top tube clearance isn't gonna make a bit of difference.
But cycling for hours on end on the wrong size bike will suck.
So don't compromise fit for standover. Especially for a stoker, who, as mentioned, isn't on and off the bike much at all compared to the captain. But yes, "the stoker is always right," so be sure to address concerns. But don't pursue some magical standover clearance minimum because you were told "you're supposed to have it."
I've been riding a mountain tandem with nominal TT clearance for 25 years. Then I added a 6" travel fork and now have no clearance. Do I care? Not at all. Never had an issue. Had two kids. Perfectly functional "down there."
So my advice is to make on the bike fit the top of your criteria. Then standover clearance.
Do you spend hours ON your bike riding it, or standing over it? Comfort ON the bike is paramount.
And if you do come off, how much difference will two whole centimeters make? Not much. And with sloping top tubes, a frame two centimeters smaller DOESN'T have two centimeters more clearance at the front of the top tube. The difference is usually nominal, so you aren't getting really any benefit at all.
And crashing at speed? Two cm of top tube clearance isn't gonna make a bit of difference.
But cycling for hours on end on the wrong size bike will suck.
So don't compromise fit for standover. Especially for a stoker, who, as mentioned, isn't on and off the bike much at all compared to the captain. But yes, "the stoker is always right," so be sure to address concerns. But don't pursue some magical standover clearance minimum because you were told "you're supposed to have it."
I've been riding a mountain tandem with nominal TT clearance for 25 years. Then I added a 6" travel fork and now have no clearance. Do I care? Not at all. Never had an issue. Had two kids. Perfectly functional "down there."
So my advice is to make on the bike fit the top of your criteria. Then standover clearance.
Likes For LV2TNDM:
#30
Mad bike riding scientist
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 27,341
Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, a black and orange one, and a few titanium ones
Mentioned: 152 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6200 Post(s)
Liked 4,201 Times
in
2,357 Posts
The flipside to the OP's concerns are an irrational obsession with standover height. I've seen 5' 10" guys on 16" mountain bikes because some nitwit told them how "really, REALLY important standover height is!" When you compromise fit and ergonomics for some crazy obsession with top tube clearance, you've lost the battle.
As for someone riding a frame that is far too small for them, I’ve seen that too. I doubt, however, that it is do those someone saying hat standover is “really, REALLY important”. It’s more likely to do with the rider’s background and if they rode BMX into their teen years or with the availability of bikes or just inexperience with choosing a bike. I really doubt that any competent shop would sell someone a bike that is several sizes too small because they want the customer to have extreme amounts of standover clearance.
Do you spend hours ON your bike riding it, or standing over it? Comfort ON the bike is paramount.
And if you do come off, how much difference will two whole centimeters make? Not much. And with sloping top tubes, a frame two centimeters smaller DOESN'T have two centimeters more clearance at the front of the top tube. The difference is usually nominal, so you aren't getting really any benefit at all.
And crashing at speed? Two cm of top tube clearance isn't gonna make a bit of difference.
But cycling for hours on end on the wrong size bike will suck.
So don't compromise fit for standover. Especially for a stoker, who, as mentioned, isn't on and off the bike much at all compared to the captain. But yes, "the stoker is always right," so be sure to address concerns. But don't pursue some magical standover clearance minimum because you were told "you're supposed to have it."
But, like so many others, you are telling the stoker that they should just settle for what they get. And, while the stoker may remain seated most of the time, they don’t necessarily want to remain seated all the time. They may want to get off the saddle occasionally. Not necessarily off the bike but just stand still for a couple of minutes. If you get off a padded saddle and onto an unpadded frame tube, that’s not an improvement.
So my advice is to make on the bike fit the top of your criteria. Then standover clearance.
__________________
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
#31
Mad bike riding scientist
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 27,341
Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, a black and orange one, and a few titanium ones
Mentioned: 152 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6200 Post(s)
Liked 4,201 Times
in
2,357 Posts
Yes, all CoMo tandems are now Gates belt compatible, meaning 28.5" BB spacing. I think that the 28.5" standard came first and then Gates built their belts to that standard. I'm not sure about that though. That spacing does seem to be a good compromise between aero and stoker comfort. One can't go by the top tube length on a single because the stoker stem of course brings the stoker bars aft of the captain's seat tube, not forward.
That kind of size difference along with the petite size of the stoker introduces challenges on finding the right sized tandem.
__________________
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
#32
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Northern CA
Posts: 741
Bikes: Cannondale tandems: '92 Road, '97 Mtn. Mongoose 10.9 Ti, Kelly Deluxe, Tommaso Chorus, Cdale MT2000, Schwinn Deluxe Cruiser, Torker Unicycle, among others.
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 279 Post(s)
Liked 205 Times
in
129 Posts
My point that standover has been the dominant parameter that people focus on IS my point. This is my premise and it's spot-on. And if you disagree, then fine. But 20 years in the industry on the west coast has provided enough evidence to support my assertion. Disagree all you want, but this is my experience. And that's why I would see so many people on bicycles that fit them terribly while riding the bike, all in an effort to get some "magical" standover clearance.
In fact, standover clearance wasn't this big deal until mountain bike sales really took off. Customers were convinced that such a problem existed since everyone was convinced they'd be riding "really, really EXTREME terrain," so they bought small bikes. Then that approach started being applied to road bike fitting, despite it not being any big deal for the century preceding the advent of mountain bikes. Somehow, people were terrified of their top tubes! OMG, it's gonna GET YOU!
Oh, and despite your opinion that, "Bikes are just random collections of measurements," they are nothing of the sort! Bicycle frames are designed as a unit, with all tube lengths chosen for a specific frame size, based on AVERAGE body dimensions for the general riding public. Random? My god, no!
The fact that you've gone to great length to rebut my post indicates that you will not be convinced otherwise. Again, I've had enough experience at the retail and manufacturing level that I know what I've observed and learned over the years. And I've also come to be able to quickly identify a "difficult" customer who will NEVER be happy. I'm pretty sure you fall in that category. Which is why I'm SO HAPPY to not have to deal with that crap "professionally" any more.
To YOUR specific issue(s): there's simply NO WAY you'll be happy with anything off the shelf. This much is clear. Go visit a reputable custom tandem builder and have something built for your specific needs. With detailed body measurements from you and your stoker, there's no reason why you shouldn't find the PERFECT solution. That said, I'd sure love to learn in the future if you're actually ABLE to find the perfect bike. Honestly, I'd be VERY surprised to find you a satisfied customer.
And did you not actually READ my post? I just said that I ride a mountain tandem with ZERO standover clearance and it fits fine. 25 years riding it happily, from Trail 401 in Crested Butte, to Hermosa Creek in Durango, Moab's Slickrock Trail, Donner Pass's Hole in the Ground, to many other technical challenges. Again, never have I had issue with the standover clearance. But then again, I hail from the mid 80's on mountain bikes, so I'm used to a more "vintage" approach to fit. So that kinda proves your silly assertion wrong. Bike fits great. But then again, when I'm riding, I never seem to get a nagging feeling or doubt about "not having a WHOLE LOT OF CLEARANCE over the top tube," so I'm never second-guessing myself.
Who said 7-10 cm too large? You must have interpreted 2 cm to be five times that amount! Why on earth would you conclude that I'm advocating for a rider to choose something so completely beyond their size range? I never said that and for you to conclude same indicates some serious reading comprehension problems. To be clear, the rider considering a 56cm road bike who's overly obsessed with standover clearance gives up ideal fit that the 56 provides and instead chooses a 54cm. Result? Cramped cockpit. But the bike's bought and ridden, so the rider is then forced to compensate for the cramped cockpit with a longer stem. Now his front-center is off; weight too far forward. Then he realizes that the saddle's too far above the bars for comfortable riding, so he now has to consider a riser stem. Or a new fork with longer steerer tube. Again, all for a whole .8 inches of clearance over that terrifying top tube! That's complete lunacy. Life and death won't be determined by that measly .8 inch! But good fit will be negatively affected.
And you're saying that having a top tube .8" higher than what it is would permanently physically and emotionally damage your stoker? I find that hard to believe. And if it's true, than that's probably more the result of listening to your rather than a qualified bicycle fitter!
All I can say at this point is good luck, you're gonna need it.
In fact, standover clearance wasn't this big deal until mountain bike sales really took off. Customers were convinced that such a problem existed since everyone was convinced they'd be riding "really, really EXTREME terrain," so they bought small bikes. Then that approach started being applied to road bike fitting, despite it not being any big deal for the century preceding the advent of mountain bikes. Somehow, people were terrified of their top tubes! OMG, it's gonna GET YOU!
Oh, and despite your opinion that, "Bikes are just random collections of measurements," they are nothing of the sort! Bicycle frames are designed as a unit, with all tube lengths chosen for a specific frame size, based on AVERAGE body dimensions for the general riding public. Random? My god, no!
The fact that you've gone to great length to rebut my post indicates that you will not be convinced otherwise. Again, I've had enough experience at the retail and manufacturing level that I know what I've observed and learned over the years. And I've also come to be able to quickly identify a "difficult" customer who will NEVER be happy. I'm pretty sure you fall in that category. Which is why I'm SO HAPPY to not have to deal with that crap "professionally" any more.
To YOUR specific issue(s): there's simply NO WAY you'll be happy with anything off the shelf. This much is clear. Go visit a reputable custom tandem builder and have something built for your specific needs. With detailed body measurements from you and your stoker, there's no reason why you shouldn't find the PERFECT solution. That said, I'd sure love to learn in the future if you're actually ABLE to find the perfect bike. Honestly, I'd be VERY surprised to find you a satisfied customer.
And did you not actually READ my post? I just said that I ride a mountain tandem with ZERO standover clearance and it fits fine. 25 years riding it happily, from Trail 401 in Crested Butte, to Hermosa Creek in Durango, Moab's Slickrock Trail, Donner Pass's Hole in the Ground, to many other technical challenges. Again, never have I had issue with the standover clearance. But then again, I hail from the mid 80's on mountain bikes, so I'm used to a more "vintage" approach to fit. So that kinda proves your silly assertion wrong. Bike fits great. But then again, when I'm riding, I never seem to get a nagging feeling or doubt about "not having a WHOLE LOT OF CLEARANCE over the top tube," so I'm never second-guessing myself.
Who said 7-10 cm too large? You must have interpreted 2 cm to be five times that amount! Why on earth would you conclude that I'm advocating for a rider to choose something so completely beyond their size range? I never said that and for you to conclude same indicates some serious reading comprehension problems. To be clear, the rider considering a 56cm road bike who's overly obsessed with standover clearance gives up ideal fit that the 56 provides and instead chooses a 54cm. Result? Cramped cockpit. But the bike's bought and ridden, so the rider is then forced to compensate for the cramped cockpit with a longer stem. Now his front-center is off; weight too far forward. Then he realizes that the saddle's too far above the bars for comfortable riding, so he now has to consider a riser stem. Or a new fork with longer steerer tube. Again, all for a whole .8 inches of clearance over that terrifying top tube! That's complete lunacy. Life and death won't be determined by that measly .8 inch! But good fit will be negatively affected.
And you're saying that having a top tube .8" higher than what it is would permanently physically and emotionally damage your stoker? I find that hard to believe. And if it's true, than that's probably more the result of listening to your rather than a qualified bicycle fitter!
All I can say at this point is good luck, you're gonna need it.
Likes For jccaclimber:
#34
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 1,173
Bikes: Surly Disk Trucker, 2014 w/Brooks Flyer Special saddle, Tubus racks - Duo front/Logo Evo rear, 2019 Dahon Mariner D8, Both bikes share Ortlieb Packer Plus series panniers, Garmin Edge 1000
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 405 Post(s)
Liked 115 Times
in
99 Posts
The flipside to the OP's concerns are an irrational obsession with standover height. ...
Do you spend hours ON your bike riding it, or standing over it? Comfort ON the bike is paramount.
And if you do come off, how much difference will two whole centimeters make? Not much. And with sloping top tubes, a frame two centimeters smaller DOESN'T have two centimeters more clearance at the front of the top tube. The difference is usually nominal, so you aren't getting really any benefit at all.
And crashing at speed? Two cm of top tube clearance isn't gonna make a bit of difference.
But cycling for hours on end on the wrong size bike will suck.
....
So my advice is to make on the bike fit the top of your criteria. Then standover clearance.
Do you spend hours ON your bike riding it, or standing over it? Comfort ON the bike is paramount.
And if you do come off, how much difference will two whole centimeters make? Not much. And with sloping top tubes, a frame two centimeters smaller DOESN'T have two centimeters more clearance at the front of the top tube. The difference is usually nominal, so you aren't getting really any benefit at all.
And crashing at speed? Two cm of top tube clearance isn't gonna make a bit of difference.
But cycling for hours on end on the wrong size bike will suck.
....
So my advice is to make on the bike fit the top of your criteria. Then standover clearance.
#35
just another gosling
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 19,527
Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004
Mentioned: 115 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3885 Post(s)
Liked 1,938 Times
in
1,383 Posts
Don’t take this the wrong way but your picture illustrates…or, better yet, fails to illustrate…the issue that a tandem team with a large size difference has. I don’t have pictures of my wife and I on a tandem…I tend to avoid cameras…but from your picture, you can see that you and your wife’s heights aren’t all that different. The top of her head is only slightly below yours. When you look in your helmet mirror, you can probably see her face. When I look in my mirror, I barely see the top of her helmet. She is a full foot shorter than I am and in bare feet, the top of her head barely comes to the bottom of my chin. jnbrown’s picture (post 23) is closer to our team’s size disparity but only somewhat. themrbruceguy’s team’s size difference is the same foot of height difference as my wife and I. In all honesty, my wife is small enough that she could almost use a kid crank on a “normal” sized tandem.
That kind of size difference along with the petite size of the stoker introduces challenges on finding the right sized tandem.
That kind of size difference along with the petite size of the stoker introduces challenges on finding the right sized tandem.
I see that it's possible that there might be a misunderstanding in this thread of the definition of standover height. Having "standover" in bike fit terms means being able to stand flat-footed on the ground in front of one's saddle. Period. If the captain did not have standover, it would be impossible for him to steady the bike while the stoker mounted and clipped in. The usual description of "holding the bike steady" is that the captain should have both feet firmly planted as far apart as standover allows, the saddle nose pressing into his lower back, and the top tube braced against his inner thigh. On our bike as pictured in post 28, I can just barely put one finger between my pubic bone and the top tube. But that's enough.
OTOH, the stoker doesn't really need standover to operate the bike, just the proper pedal to saddle fit distance. However, there will be occasional extended stopped periods where the captain will want to come off the saddle and put down both feet, partly for comfort, partly for safety. At those times, the stoker will really appreciate the wise choice of bicycle which permits her to come off the saddle and stand with both feet on the ground, straddling the top tube without pain in her crotch. That's what stoker standover is and why it's a really good idea.
This isn't complicated and is easily obtained. I can't figure out what all the fuss is about. I have ridden with many, many tandem teams, attending a tandem rally with over 400 bikes, and I think every one had standover for both riders. I think that because we had a mass start ride which took quite a while to assemble and get going. Tandem rallies are all about looking at other teams and their bikes and are great fun.
"
__________________
Results matter
Results matter
#36
Mad bike riding scientist
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 27,341
Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, a black and orange one, and a few titanium ones
Mentioned: 152 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6200 Post(s)
Liked 4,201 Times
in
2,357 Posts
My point that standover has been the dominant parameter that people focus on IS my point. This is my premise and it's spot-on. And if you disagree, then fine. But 20 years in the industry on the west coast has provided enough evidence to support my assertion. Disagree all you want, but this is my experience. And that's why I would see so many people on bicycles that fit them terribly while riding the bike, all in an effort to get some "magical" standover clearance.
Every shop I’ve ever been to starts with having a customer stand over the bike, lift the bike, and see how much clearance the rider has. That is standover! It’s also a quick way to get close to a proper size. They then move on to having the rider get up in the saddle and check the reach to the handlebars but every shop I’ve been to starts with having the customer stand over the bike. Even at my co-op, that’s were we start on any bike.
In fact, standover clearance wasn't this big deal until mountain bike sales really took off. Customers were convinced that such a problem existed since everyone was convinced they'd be riding "really, really EXTREME terrain," so they bought small bikes. Then that approach started being applied to road bike fitting, despite it not being any big deal for the century preceding the advent of mountain bikes. Somehow, people were terrified of their top tubes! OMG, it's gonna GET YOU!
People didn’t “buy small bikes” when they bought mountain bikes. Manufacturers made mountain bikes smaller. The proportions for mountain bikes are made so that you ride a smaller frame. If you ride a 58cm (23”) road bike, a 19” to 20” mountain bike is proportioned to your size. If you tried to ride a 23” mountain bike, the top tube as well as the standover would be wrong. It would be a horrible ride.
Frames of a given size have become shorter over time because the bikes are being made with sloping top tubes but there are a couple of good reasons for that. Having a 100 or 120mm or more suspension fork on a bike pushes the front of the bike upward meaning that the rider needs more standover so the frame is made smaller. Making the frame smaller by sloping the top tube also adds lateral stiffness to the frame so that the bike isn’t whippy. But even with a shorter seat tube, the bikes are still have the same proportionalities as when they used longer seat tubes. A 20” mountain bike many only have a 15 to 18” seat tube but it still has the same top tube length as well as stack and reach.
Oh, and despite your opinion that, "Bikes are just random collections of measurements," they are nothing of the sort! Bicycle frames are designed as a unit, with all tube lengths chosen for a specific frame size, based on AVERAGE body dimensions for the general riding public. Random? My god, no!
The fact that you've gone to great length to rebut my post indicates that you will not be convinced otherwise. Again, I've had enough experience at the retail and manufacturing level that I know what I've observed and learned over the years. And I've also come to be able to quickly identify a "difficult" customer who will NEVER be happy. I'm pretty sure you fall in that category. Which is why I'm SO HAPPY to not have to deal with that crap "professionally" any more.
I had to make several changes to the stoker position but far less than I’ve made to other tandems I’ve owned. The “difficult” member of the family to fit a bike is my wife but that is because she is petite in a world that doesn’t recognize that she exists. She has swung a leg over many a bike and has rejected dozens just on that factor alone. She hasn’t even taken them out into the parking lot because she knows what is comfortable.
Even then she will be polite and courteous to a sales person unless that sales person tries to convince her that she’ll “get used to the bike”. She knows from long…and very painful…experience that “about right” isn’t right.
To YOUR specific issue(s): there's simply NO WAY you'll be happy with anything off the shelf. This much is clear. Go visit a reputable custom tandem builder and have something built for your specific needs. With detailed body measurements from you and your stoker, there's no reason why you shouldn't find the PERFECT solution. That said, I'd sure love to learn in the future if you're actually ABLE to find the perfect bike. Honestly, I'd be VERY surprised to find you a satisfied customer.
As to the tandem, again, read up thread. I’ve found the PERFECT solution. Not many companies make a tandem in the proportions that Cannondale did in their 2010 L/S tandem. When my wife started getting the tandem bug, I was afraid that we’d have to settle for something that was far to large for her as a stoker. We didn’t. She has plenty of room and is very comfortable on a bike that has a huge front for me and a very tiny stoker compartment for her.
And did you not actually READ my post? I just said that I ride a mountain tandem with ZERO standover clearance and it fits fine. 25 years riding it happily, from Trail 401 in Crested Butte, to Hermosa Creek in Durango, Moab's Slickrock Trail, Donner Pass's Hole in the Ground, to many other technical challenges. Again, never have I had issue with the standover clearance. But then again, I hail from the mid 80's on mountain bikes, so I'm used to a more "vintage" approach to fit. So that kinda proves your silly assertion wrong. Bike fits great. But then again, when I'm riding, I never seem to get a nagging feeling or doubt about "not having a WHOLE LOT OF CLEARANCE over the top tube," so I'm never second-guessing myself.
Who said 7-10 cm too large? You must have interpreted 2 cm to be five times that amount! Why on earth would you conclude that I'm advocating for a rider to choose something so completely beyond their size range? I never said that and for you to conclude same indicates some serious reading comprehension problems. To be clear, the rider considering a 56cm road bike who's overly obsessed with standover clearance gives up ideal fit that the 56 provides and instead chooses a 54cm. Result? Cramped cockpit. But the bike's bought and ridden, so the rider is then forced to compensate for the cramped cockpit with a longer stem. Now his front-center is off; weight too far forward. Then he realizes that the saddle's too far above the bars for comfortable riding, so he now has to consider a riser stem. Or a new fork with longer steerer tube. Again, all for a whole .8 inches of clearance over that terrifying top tube! That's complete lunacy. Life and death won't be determined by that measly .8 inch! But good fit will be negatively affected.
themrbruceguy has a similar problem to mine. His stoker, like mine, is a foot shorter than he is. Finding a bike that fits him isn’t the issue. Finding a tandem that fits her is. Most of the tandems he is looking at are classic 58/50cm frames. At 5’2”, his wife is likely stretching it to ride a 50cm bike. My 5’6” daughter comfortably rides a 50cm bike. My wife is 5’ tall and rides a 43 cm bike. A 49cm is 7 cm too tall for her and I would hazard a guess that the themrbruceguy’s wife would be closer to that 43cm bike than a 49cm.
That was my point. If you think that someone should be riding a bike that is 7cm taller than they should, how about putting your sensitive bits to the test? Get a bike that is 7 cm taller (almost 3 sizes bigger) and go ride it. Report back to us how your sensitive bits do. I won’t do it myself nor would I ask my wife to do it (anymore). I’ve had the chance to get a Cannondale touring bike that was the next size up from what I currently use and I passed on it. It would have been too uncomfortable.
My wife…and probably every other petite rider out there…haven’t had that choice. They have had to ride bikes that are too large if they want to ride at all. They can’t “ride all day in comfort” because they can’t start in comfort.
And you're saying that having a top tube .8" higher than what it is would permanently physically and emotionally damage your stoker? I find that hard to believe. And if it's true, than that's probably more the result of listening to your rather than a qualified bicycle fitter!
All I can say at this point is good luck, you're gonna need it.
__________________
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
#37
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Sin City, Nevada
Posts: 2,884
Bikes: Catrike 700, Greenspeed GTO trike, , Linear LWB recumbent, Haluzak Horizon SWB recumbent, Balance 450 MTB, Cannondale SM800 Beast of the East
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 522 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 227 Times
in
179 Posts
Too bad you don't live closer to Madison Wisconsin or you could try out a used Rans Screamer recumbent tandem. The difference in height between the two riders is less of an issue because you move the seat back or forward to adjust for different heights. Unfortunately the don't come cheap either. A have a former coworker with a neurological disease that makes walking difficult but he is an avid tandem rider with his wife and the Screamer is the one he rides. https://budgetbicyclectr.com/rans-sc...rt-tandem.html
#38
Mad bike riding scientist
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 27,341
Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, a black and orange one, and a few titanium ones
Mentioned: 152 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6200 Post(s)
Liked 4,201 Times
in
2,357 Posts
Excellent post. I've been trying to figure this out with my girlfriend for a while now - you articulated what I have determined, but never put in to words. I'm entertaining the idea of a tandem for a variety of reasons, in short - it would keep us "together" on rides (she's slower and bonks fast, hard to do any miles). She's short and has something in her head that she needs to rest her feet on the ground sitting in the saddle when she's stopped. I've tried to fight that one to fix her obvious fitment issue on her single (not getting proper leg extension = saddle too low) but the "fear factor" shoots up and she's afraid of the bike not being able to plant her feet on the ground. Saddle vs top tube to base "stand over" are two vastly different points, but I think "fear of the bike" is the same. If anyone is afraid of some aspect of it the result is the same - they are uncomfortable and don't enjoy. How do you conquer the fear and get proper fitment? That challenge increases with sizing that is a bit outside of the "norm".
As to your girlfriend’s riding style, it may be due to her having been put on bikes that were way too big for her while she was starting to ride. Riding a bike that is too large and that is difficult to control can put fear into someone that is hard to get over, especially if that happened when the rider was younger. Putting her on a tandem and making her trust your judgement rather blindly…the stoker can’t see much ahead of them other than the captain’s back… probably isn’t going to make her any less fearful.
You have to have a lot of patience to help a fearful rider get over their fear. It’s a very long process and isn’t helped if you are pushing for more and harder miles. Sometimes the advice is best delivered by someone outside the relationship.
__________________
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Likes For cyccommute:
#39
just another gosling
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 19,527
Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004
Mentioned: 115 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3885 Post(s)
Liked 1,938 Times
in
1,383 Posts
Excellent post. I've been trying to figure this out with my girlfriend for a while now - you articulated what I have determined, but never put in to words. I'm entertaining the idea of a tandem for a variety of reasons, in short - it would keep us "together" on rides (she's slower and bonks fast, hard to do any miles). She's short and has something in her head that she needs to rest her feet on the ground sitting in the saddle when she's stopped. I've tried to fight that one to fix her obvious fitment issue on her single (not getting proper leg extension = saddle too low) but the "fear factor" shoots up and she's afraid of the bike not being able to plant her feet on the ground. Saddle vs top tube to base "stand over" are two vastly different points, but I think "fear of the bike" is the same. If anyone is afraid of some aspect of it the result is the same - they are uncomfortable and don't enjoy. How do you conquer the fear and get proper fitment? That challenge increases with sizing that is a bit outside of the "norm".
The end of the above little tale is that my wife no longer rides her single on the street. She has stoked for me for over 17,000 miles without an issues. She trusts me. Which is kinda weird, being a man and knowing my own fallibility but love is a wonderful thing. I try to earn that trust on every ride. When one has been riding bikes in traffic since being 8 years old, correct reaction is built into one's spine.
__________________
Results matter
Results matter
Likes For Carbonfiberboy:
#40
Mad bike riding scientist
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 27,341
Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, a black and orange one, and a few titanium ones
Mentioned: 152 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6200 Post(s)
Liked 4,201 Times
in
2,357 Posts
Now with pictures. We have ridden tandems that are larger on the rear but my wife did struggle to get over the top tube to mount. She has always mounted a bike by putting her leg over the top tube. The extremely low top tube on this bike makes that kind of mounting easier.
She has plenty of room to stand over the frame.
She prefers putting a foot down on starts and stops. With this size frame it’s not an issue.
Not the size difference. Carbonfiberboy’s stoker can look over his shoulder. She looks right in the middle of my back.
All in all, it’s far better to have a happy stoker. If the bike fits, they are a whole lot happier.
She has plenty of room to stand over the frame.
She prefers putting a foot down on starts and stops. With this size frame it’s not an issue.
Not the size difference. Carbonfiberboy’s stoker can look over his shoulder. She looks right in the middle of my back.
All in all, it’s far better to have a happy stoker. If the bike fits, they are a whole lot happier.
__________________
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
#41
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 1,173
Bikes: Surly Disk Trucker, 2014 w/Brooks Flyer Special saddle, Tubus racks - Duo front/Logo Evo rear, 2019 Dahon Mariner D8, Both bikes share Ortlieb Packer Plus series panniers, Garmin Edge 1000
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 405 Post(s)
Liked 115 Times
in
99 Posts
Now with pictures. We have ridden tandems that are larger on the rear but my wife did struggle to get over the top tube to mount. She has always mounted a bike by putting her leg over the top tube. The extremely low top tube on this bike makes that kind of mounting easier.
...
She has plenty of room to stand over the frame.
...
She has plenty of room to stand over the frame.
Would you mind sharing what your wife's inseam measurement is and what the "stand-over height" is on the bike? I see the top tube is angled quite a bit. Maybe get a range from the nose of the saddle to where the stoker bars overhang?
#42
Mad bike riding scientist
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 27,341
Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, a black and orange one, and a few titanium ones
Mentioned: 152 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6200 Post(s)
Liked 4,201 Times
in
2,357 Posts
Her inseam is 28”. The published standover for the extra large/small is 27.6” From the nose of her saddle to the rear of mine, is 17” while the distance from the nose of her saddle to the handlebar is 13” with about 2.5” of adjustment on the stoker stem.
__________________
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Likes For cyccommute: