glye

I think it can work, but there are some potential problems that they'd have to consider when designing it. Interference with the sports stem can be avoided by giving attached bags a more vertical angle, and maybe making the block a little longer (but that increases the stress on the frame). Interference with brake/shift cables must be tested. Extra bending is one thing, another is rubbing from vibration, which can wear holes in the cables pretty quickly. And you have to make sure not to snag cables on the block when folding the stem, which could kink the cables. Finally the bags cannot be placed so low that they block the dynamo light, which sits next to the front spring.

A third party might not consider all aspects - for instance if it is designed with Pacific Birdys in mind, they may not consider dynamo lights, if those Birdys don't have that option (not sure). The Birdy designers must consider all of it.

Jipe

If you look at the picture of the adapter showed by Bikegang, it does what Glye is saying: a more vertical angle to the block.

The sport stem is compatible with the bags wit a 260mm high frame but not with he bags with a 300mm high frame and of course not with frame with a hard plastic handle like the old S-bag, T-bag and C-bag. But its not a big issue, because the frame of these bags can be replaced by the same size without hard plastic handle. I use a S-bag with a frame without hard plastic handle.

Note that all new Brompton bags do not have a frame with hard plastic handle (this handle was also a problem to use bags with 300mm high on the S type Brompton).

It will work with the Brompton QFCFA-400x260 frame.



It won't work with the QFCFA-400x300 or any frame with hard plastic handle like QFCFAH-400x260.

spj

I actually think R&M is not solidly invested in the Birdy like it was in the 1990s and 2000s. Spares are difficult to find outside Asia [especially for mk1s, and now aftermarket companies in Sing. and Japan and Taiwan have more than R&M] , prices are still high, the company is big on electric bikes, and I heard about the shift to more electrics in an interview online with either R or M, forget which.
Pacific Cycles, meanwhile, are innovating strongly and close to the main markets in Asia.
And do not forget that the Philippine company Rhine got the moulds to make Mark 1 Birdys, [they used their own name on them] and did a decent product - not sure they are still going, but I guess that was a license agreement.
I have often wondered why so many Birdy classics are branded as Peugeot in Asia. I have one from 1996 branded as 'Jeep', bought form California, but Pacific and R&M shut that down pretty quickly.
There are people from Pacific Cycles on the BGF on Facebook that could answer these questions. I believe PC are still not allowed to sell frames separately, or rear swingarms or forks.

Jipe

I agree with you: R&M is indeed not focusing a lot anymore on the Birdy what gives more space to Pacific Cycles to develop the Birdy.

The only thing I think that would make this change is if R&M decide to develop a eBirdy what would also make sense because there is a demand for electric assist folding bikes, there is little offer for assisted folders and the eBike market becomes slowly saturated with a lot of manufacturers.
R&M with the Birdy has an excellent base to develop an assisted folder.

secret_squirrel

I too suspect R&M are moving away from Birdy. The UK dealer network is very quiet with few Birdys left in stock.

Unfortunately I also think the chance of an e-Birdy has been and gone. They sold one for a couple of years but suspect they were too early to market. I doubt they will try again which is a shame because the frame design gives plenty of places to hide a battery.

I’m selling my 11sp Birdy as working from home mostly these days. On UK eBay if anyone is interested!

Jipe

Pacific Cycles just introduced an eBirdy.

Some German Birdy dealers are selling the Pacific Cycles eBirdy.

So there is at least again one eBirdy on the market.

When R&M proposed an eBirdy, indeed the market wasn't ready for it and also the technology wasn't as developed as it is now and R&M wasn't as much focused on ebike as it is now.

R&M could follow Pacific Cycles.

glye

R&M afaict currently uses exclusively crank motors, not hub motors. This is generally the most efficient option since it benefits from the bike's gears. And it gives a sportier response as soon as your pedals move, rather than having to crank half a revolution before a hub motor starts pulling. And you get the full benefit of suspension, and a better weight balance and freedom to choose whatever rear gearing you want, including internal hub gears. Crank motors are more expensive though, and the frame has to be built around them. And that's a problem for the Birdy - how to fit a motor in that frame, without blocking the fold? If it is possible at all, the end result may not look much like a Birdy.

They could go for a hub motor like Pacific, but that would compromise with what they clearly believe an e-bike should be. (They can't install throttles to work around the hub lag, as those are not allowed for EU pedelecs, only for mopeds and upwards. The motor must be controlled by crank revolution.)

As for batteries, the frame has some volume, but not enough to easily fit a 500 Wh I think. Both frame and battery would need a peculiar shape which makes them more expensive. They could use the lumpy standard shape Bosch battery, I think that will fit on top of the frame, but it will look ugly and may affect folded dimensions a little bit.

All together this may be why they have given up on the Birdy and instead made the Tinker, a small-wheel ebike. Mostly non-folding, only the stem folds it seems.
https://www.r-m.de/en-gb/bikes/tinker/

But it reminds me, I did test ride an electric Birdy at the SPEZI bike show in 2013. I don't remember now what kind of motor it had. Only that it had the nuVinci Harmony automatically shifting stepless gear hub, a great ride. Probably this means it had a front hub motor, which I would say is generally the least good option for a motor, all else being equal. Bad on icy/gravelly ground, wears out tires fast, affects steering. Anyway, this confirms they were testing it, and dropped it.

glye

(The battery was in a bag on the handlebars, a temporary setup.)

Another problem for an e-Birdy is the added weight. It already comes with warnings to replace the swingarm, fork and handlepost every x thousand km or y years, I don't recall which. The added weight from motor + battery makes this worse. I see Pacific put both the motor and the battery inside the rear wheel. That solves the frame load issue, but makes the problem of increased unsuspended mass worse. It's "cable-less" which may mean it's illegal in EU, if it has no crank sensor. Though that doesn't affect Pacific much, and there's also the fact that this way it's fairly easy to electrify it, with a minimum of changes to the rest of the bike. A low hanging fruit for them.

secret_squirrel

Im no ebike expert but I believe the crack lag problem for hub motors has been mostly fixed by better sensors. There are aftermarket Brompton e-mods that have received favourable reviews with them.

This was the original e-Birdy I believe, https://road.cc/content/news/326-new...lectric-folder. went on sale a while later in the UK. Every so often one shows up on Ebay. The battery bag is a similar solution to the current e-Brompton - albeit the Brompton has the advantage of the bag being much lower down the frame, near the headtube which I imaging improves handling compared to the e-Birdy.

Jipe

Pacific Cycles uses the Zehus integrated hub that is also used in the Vellobike+.

All assisted folders face the weight increase problem, anybody willing an assisted folder must accept some weight increase.

I think it would be possible to integrate the Fazua crank motor in the Birdy frame. The Fazua solution weight only about 3.3kg in total (including a 252Wh battery).

The problem is that Fazua is an high end expensive solution meant for high end road bikes and the R&M Birdy is already pretty expensive, the Fazua assisted Birdy would probably become much too expensive ?

Schwinnsta

Evelo has made e-folders, mid drive, torque sensor, battery in top tube for the last few years. https://www.evelo.com/electric-bicycles/dash/

Jipe

This is a classic mid-frame fold folder. There are several with crank motor like this one.

Its much bigger folded than the Birdy and weight 43lbs about 20kg.

A eBirdy with a Fazua motor could weight less than 15kg.

glye

Oh, good. Small wheels should have less of those problems in any case, since they rotate faster.

Right, the one I test rode had the battery in a similar bag (but could not have had a rear motor).


Of course. The point was that it matters where that weight is placed. Placed in the wheel it doesn't affect the frame carrying capacity, but reduces suspension efficiency. Placed in the frame it counts towards the weight limits of the frame, which may have to be strengthened. (Perhaps the Pacific solution is fine, it isn't a downhill bike, after all.)


Yes, maybe this is possible, it would be a nice solution. The battery is half the capacity of what R&M normally uses, but some will be happy with that. And perhaps it is possible to mount two batteries. It's a completely different ecosystem though, they would lose some of the benefit they have now in that all R&M ebikes use Bosch motor systems.


That motor doesn't look compatible with the way the Birdy folds. And it's hard to judge the battery vs. frame when they don't say what the Wh capacity is. Apples vs. oranges. Sure such folding ebikes can be made, but a Birdy with crank motor and frame battery is another matter. Fazua seems the easiest solution, technically speaking. Business decisions are also another matter...

Schwinnsta

Granted it would be nice to see lower weight solutions. I used Evelo to just show that mid drive folders with batteries in the frame are out there. From the spec section on the page Battery....36V 10.5AH Samsung

Jipe

The battery is 36V 10.5AH Samsung = 378Wh more than the standard Fazua battery.

Usually, folders do less distance than other bikes, they are used for commuting so a smaller battery capacity is acceptable.

Indeed, R&M work mainly with Bosch moving to another motor provider is a problem as they will probably buy less pieces. But folders often need specific components produced in small quantities.

Schwinnsta

As mid drive motors get smaller, folders with batteries built in (to normal frame tubes) that are relatively light will become more available.

glye

Schwinnsta, thanks for the info. That's not bad at all for such a frame design.
Jipe, yes, 378 Wh on a folder may be enough for many. Especially for those who have to lift the bike often. Though as you say, the Evelo isn't light. A 15 kg Fazua eBirdy would be really nice.

Birdy is expensive and hard to make profitable partly because of all the either fully custom or "rare" parts: front disk hub, rear hub with 9t cassettes, seat post, handlepost, chain management thingy, and more. Adding special motor parts to this only makes it more expensive. It's clear why Pacific put everything in the rear wheel. It's the simplest way, hence the cheapest.

I see for the E-BIRDY Monocoque they claim 13.1 kg w/o pedals! Seriously light. It's just a 155 Wh battery, though. Less than a third of a Bosch battery. And it seems to be a singlespeed. So in more hilly places the motor won't get much help from the rider, the cadence will be low. Could work well in flat citites.
https://www.pacific-cycles.com/e-bir...IRDY-Monocoque

But seems to be a full 250 W motor, and it has regenerative braking. Few ebikes has this.
https://www.zehus.it/products/

It will extend the batteries somewhat, but likely less than 10% according to this I just read:
https://electrek.co/2018/04/24/regen...-how-it-works/

Jipe

Its the same technology from Zehus as in the Vellobike+, also single speed (why didn't Zehus put a cassette on their hub, not enough space in width ??).

Reviews of the Vellobike+ aren't very positive: either very short autonomy either very weak electric assist. The Zehus smart regen doesn't bring much.

The control from the smartphone seems also problematic: requires mobile internet, the smartphone is connected to the Zehus servers which are connected to the motor hub, there is no BTLE (or other) direct connection between the smartphone and the hub.

Its slow and in case of absence of mobile internet coverage (or Zehus servers down), no control anymore !

glye

Oh, that is bad. Same if Zehus goes bankrupt, the servers will go down permanently unless someone buys the assets and restarts it. Also those who don't own a smartphone, or have one that isn't compatible, they can't use it either.

bike.gang.uk

Birdy P40 (Pacific Cycles 40th Anniversary Edition)

RandomHajile

https://www.schwalbetires.com/bike_t.../billy_bonkers

came out last year but I think the 18inch versions are new (there is two types)

as theyre 2inch Wide they should fit easy like big apple tyres but with more grip!

gleearch

Is there a link for the Birdy P40? I don't see any mention of this on Pacific Cycles website for the Birdy.

bike.gang.uk

Don't think there is any info yet, will keep update if any spec out ... looks like a big wheel birdy though

gleearch

P40 photos are supposed to be coming soon. If you read Pacific Cycles FB page, it's noted as coming soon. I can't seem to be able to post the link here.