Morimorimori

Hi. As I'm aiming to increase my rides' distances radically, up to 600km, I've been thinking hard on how to proper fuel myself during them. My aim will be to achieve the maximum average speed possible while staying in endurance pulse zone (125-130bpm on average for me). I need this to achieve my another goal I mentioned in another topic - to gain as much spare time as possible to be able to sleep 7-8 hours at night.

Typical recommendation for achieving maximum performance is to consume about 60g of carbs per hours of your ride. So I was wondering what will be an optimal source of these carbs. Energy gels are out of question - a bit too costy for me, and limiting food intake to them doesn't work for me, I only rely on them as on my last resort. In our state there aren't that much places where you could eat something healthy away from major cities, so can't rely on restaurants either. In a typical small grocery shop you can meet around you won't find too much slow carb sources either. Or it will be something you have to spend a lot of time chewing on to get your desired 60g carbs per hour. Whatever option I see, there is huge downside to it. Even if it's good, it availability isn't guaranteed away from big cities etc.

Then I thought - what if I just use mass gainer I already have piled on for my gym sessions? That's basically a bit of proteins plus a lot of carbs, and it's usually slow or medium burning carbs to fuel you exercising for an hour. Even better - while in powder form, it weights nothing, it doesn't rot, it can't be "cooked" in a couple of minutes in a water bottle, you just need to pour in some water (even cold one will do) - and it takes just a minute to consume it and clean the bottle, and you are ready to go. That does seem like really solid option for times when you just don't have a better food source rich on carbs available.

Has anybody had any experience with using food supplements for this purpose?

shelbyfv

What are you eating now on century rides?

GhostRider62

This may not be helpful and if so, I apologize.

You have to figure out what fuels you best. My advice, less is often more. I don't know your age, weight or max HR but I would expect a high percentage of your energy requirements to come from fat at 12r bpm HR. 40 grams per hour might be too much or it could be too little. I would start at the lower end of calories per hour and see how it goes. ALWAYS bring emergency food to be reserved if you bonk.

When I do a 400K or shorter, it is mostly liquid and a couple bars. I'll have a coke and potato chips sometimes later in the ride or believe it or not, chocolate milk. I was doing a long brevet once with a MD researcher and we both came out of the control with milk, leading to an interesting discussion about on the bike nutrition. Milk does not bother me at all.

When I rode my bike across the USA, at some point your stomach becomes like an inferno. Anything you throw in there burns instantly. Lil Debbies provided a cheap (less than 0.5 cents per calorie) mix of easy to digest protein, fat, and sugar. 3 packs of 220 calories last 3-4 hours. Or 4 Egg McMuffins. Indirectly, I am saying to eat what your eyes tell you to eat. If you go into a minimarket and your eyes go for salted almonds, don't even think, Buy them. Don't neglect protein and fats. You need free fatty acids. Don't fall into the trap of only drinking energy drinks or gels. I would say at 600K, you might get away with it. I did a quick 600k on just gels and powder. I think I ate two sit down meals on a fast 1200K and six on a slow one (2019 PBP). Whatever you do, don't try to eat a whole pizza if you don't know you can do that. Some riders will buy a 12 inch Subway, eat half, and stuff the other half in the jersey giving a little time to digest. After you eat a lot, ride a little slower for maybe 30-40 minutes. I don't do well with much fructose on a ride, unfortunately. I only learned that the hardway

Be careful with some whey and protein powders. If you keep them in the bottle too long and they get warm, they ferment and you get the runs.

I often just use cheapo maltodextrin (50 pound bag for $60) but it clumps and is hard to mix. There are some better ones that are more expensive, I forget the name

tgot 

Bystander here, aspiring but never randonee'd at those distances yet. I've toured, loaded, but not recently.

I notice all the advice from experienced folks includes *some* variety. I never read anyone's success story about one fuel type alone. I'm *sure* there are folks, but it seems uncommon.

The question of "can a mass gainer powder be used?" is absolutely "Yes, as some part of the fuel strategy." As the only fuel is a radically different question.

For fairly recent sixty mile + 5kft rides where I wanted to finish fresh, as-if I was going to do another sixty, I really liked:

• One serving GoFar powdered drink, split into two bottles. Note that this advertises itself as complete and balanced.
• One Clif or Power bar
• One package salted peanuts (more fat and protein than probably optimal)
• One two-pack of Fig or Blueberry Newtons, TJs brand(more sugar than optimal, but a treat).

Each was in the 220-300 cal range. I'm 200lbs. I was trying to figure out feed for myself, and using how wiped I was post-ride as a proxy.

Additional powder servings were my fuel reserve, for the convenience factors you mention. I tried 50 miles on just three GoFar servings. Legs and energy felt fine, during the ride and after, but I was tired of it.

GhostRider62

I really like Lim rice cakes but they are a bit of a pain to make.

Almond Joy bars. I don't know why but two of those in my handlebar bag and I am good for a couple hours

Trust me.....you will get sick of powder. Maybe not on a 600k but certainly a huge risk on a 1200K. Have a backup.

Carbonfiberboy 

Here's what I've done: at home I mix up a tub (in an old 5 lb. protein container) of maltodextrin and whey protein in a 7:1 mix by weight. I put 2c. of that stuff in a liter or 24 oz. water bottle. That lasts about 50 miles or between controls or maybe longer. I put however many 1c Ziploc bags are appropriate in my saddle bag to reconstitute as I go. Obviously more bags can be put in a drop bag. That's my between controls nutrition. At a control I get whatever else seems good, mix another bottle and go. I also have a liter bottle of plain water and Endurolytes in a coin purse. I buy the malto in 50# bags from a homebrew supply house or Amazon.

I try to drink a swallow of this mix every 15 minutes, 2 swallows every 30' or whatever. The idea is to drink frequently, so it's a steady drip thing rather than meals. I've described this on BF many times. Other riders have also had success doing this - it's not just nut-case me. I don't get sick of it. The taste is very mild. The issue is that this won't work on PBP unless you have a support person who keeps track of you about every 400k. So there, just put as many croissants as you need into your bar bag. A croissant is about 250 calories.

jlippinbike

You seem to be fixated on replenishing carbohydrate fuel during an endurance event. You might want to reconsider your nutrition and training regimens so you can avoid worrying about carbs. I've learned that long endurance bike rides are so much easier to COMPLETE when I'm fat adapted and don't need to worry about replenishing carbs. See . Furthermore, a lifestyle that includes massive consumption of sugars to keep one going on a bike usually leads to insulin resistance and fatty liver problems. Not good.

GhostRider62

I'm doing something wrong, can you help me. I cannot imagine dissolving 2 cups of malto/whey into 1 liter. I use less but still it clumps. Maybe because I bought cheap big bag of Malto from a brewer? Are there different qualities? A stirrer?

What I have done is dissolve as much as I can of a similar mix in hot water and then cool. This is more of a fuel bottle than a water bottle. For in my bottle, I dose it out in old vitamin bottles with narrow mouths. I had bad luck with baggies.

This is for OP: On 2019 PBP, I expended 19,000 kj on the ride per my power meter. This is about 19,000 calories or 25 calories per mile. My basal metabolic rate is 1900 calories per day. So, I burned a total of 25,000 calories over 75 hours with about 52 hours moving time. A rider who uses 70% fat vs 30% fat for caloric needs is an easy calculation. One rider would easily replace glycogen by eating diligently, the other will likley suffer eventually. This is one reason pacing and eating something consistently is so critical. Or, stop and eat a big meal and let it digest....sort of what I did in 2019. I have no idea of my caloric intake in 2019, I just ate at cafes, bakeries, and 6 times at controls and did not carry food....just mostly water on the bike...tourist style. In 2015, I consumed about 7500-9500 calories over 54 hours. I do not have my power file anymore but seem to recall total expenditure of 29,000 calories. I lost 5 pounds of fat on the ride (skin fold verified and it was very obvious to the eye and scale) and I was dragging on the return and for a variety of reasons did not have enough food. Don't be that guy. Again, for the OP. Getting your eating and drinking and pooping down is a very important thing at the longer distances. Don't be afraid to experiment. I often read that PBP riders burn 35-40,000 calories on the ride but my power meters say otherwise. Overeating can be as bad as undereating. You have to learn your requirements the hardway. That and keeping warm in the cool, damp night will go a long way toward finishing it

Tourist in MSN

A couple things you might want to review for energy sources are:

Good discussion of the role of carbs, proteins and fats at different wattage levels. If you are a Tour de France pro racer you are at high wattage, if you are a leisurely bike touring rider you are low wattage most of the time but higher wattage on the hills, rando rider you are probably somewhere in between. That said, I ride brevets at only a slightly higher wattage level than I use for long distance loaded bike touring, so I am not using a lot of carbs.
https://www.roadbikerider.com/energy...e-intensities/

These two are more oriented towards multi-week endurance activities, not a couple of days, so these are more oriented to make sure you get adequate long term caloric intake and nutrition. But there might be good ideas here too.
https://www.msrgear.com/blog/nutriti...food-for-fuel/
https://www.msrgear.com/blog/9019/

As noted in those references, proteins are good for muscle recovery, but not typically used as a significant energy source. I assume your mass gainer is heavy on protein and very light on fats. But, we all carry around a lot of fats on our bodies, so if you can train your body to burn fats you can get a lot of energy out of those fats too. A pound of body fat is roughly 3500 calories of energy waiting to be used. But fats are not a good energy source for high wattage activities. And it takes time to train your body to burn fats at a higher rate.

Electrolytes are something often missing from discussion on fueling for exertion. Last summer on one of my exercise rides, I bonked badly after about 50 miles, the last 20 some miles to get home were very slow and I had no energy. I had ridden that route many times, knew how much hydration and energy intake I needed, thus something was off. Eventually I decided that it was probably lack of electrolytes. Since then I have made sure I have some salty snack foods in my handlebar bag too.

I should say that I have not ridden longer than 200k, so I can't comment in personal experience that is applicable to you. And I have diabetes but do not take insulin, thus I have to limit my carb intake to lower glycemic index carbs, which impairs my ability to get fast energy foods. So, my personal experience is not that applicable but I hope that my input here was applicable.

shelbyfv

What distances?

GhostRider62

I did 1218 fat adapted.

I would never not eat sufficient carbs on a long ride (over 200km), just need a lot less.

clasher

Sugar is where it's at, with some caffeine and a bit of sodium. Here's one approach. I tried doing the maltodextrin on a 600k but got tired of it before 200k had passed and threw out my bag of mix (it was a homemade version of the hammer nutrition stuff). I used up the rest of my maltodextrin for trainer rides... for the cost of malto vs. sugar, the only reason I can think of to choose malto is the neutral taste, sugar can rot the teeth but I tend to chug my pepsi and rinse with water right after... same goes for eating food, I rinse, use a flosser, and then chew gum.

When I'm out doing brevets, if there's a corner store near the control I'll buy a pepsi or two, a bag of potato chips or doritos, and some gummy candies. Miss me with that low-carb stuff, bread is life I had a great time at PBP, fuelled mostly on baguettes, coca-cola, and pasta (and the occasional beer). I'll stop and eat meals if there's a group I'm riding with but on any solo brevets a to-go veggie burger is the closest I usually come to a proper meal. If I can't get a vurger I'll buy one of those clif builder bars since they are commonly available even out in the small country shops.

jlippinbike

I suppose any distance that qualifies as an endurance ride. If you are fat adapted, then you don't need to micromanage your carb consumption. Being fat adapted does NOT mean you need to avoid carb consumption. I've ridden all the rando distances fat adapted and not had to worry about getting a "carb fix" every 30 to 40 miles along the way. Carbs tend to mess up your gut on the really long rides. I've successfully completed three grand brevets - all of which while I was fat adapted. You do need carbs for speed workouts, i.e., high intensity training. But for endurance workouts and events you should be riding below FTP, and as a result you should be burning mostly fat.

Carbonfiberboy 

I also buy my malto from a homebrew house, 50# bags. To mix, I put a couple inches of water in the bottom of a bottle, add the malto mix then water until the bottle is almost full. Then I shake the bottle100 times, fill it the rest of the way and shake some again. There remain small lumps which don't seem to be a problem. I usually eat something at a control or rest stop and won't need my sip of carbs for maybe 45'. The lumps seem to have mostly dissolved by then.

The difference might be that I have the whey protein thoroughly mixed into the malto before I put it in the bottle. I find that the mild flavor of this mix, basically like chocolate flavored rice water, never wears out my mouth like sweet energy drinks do. I haven't had a problem with the double closure Ziplock bags with only 1 cup of powder in each. I'm careful to squeeze the air out before sealing. We take a lot of dry powdery foodstuffs with us when we go on long backpacks. Even crammed into the bottom of a pack, never a problem. My secret for never a tummy problem is that I never take more than a few swallows at any one time, just a slow steady carb drip, so no sugar rushes or drop-outs.

shelbyfv

Thanks

GhostRider62

Thanks, I have to practice,

Malto is cheap and perfect (Hi GI and low osmolality)

Carbonfiberboy 

My carb trick is to never take much in at any one time. IME 30-40 miles apart is way too far. A little bit of carbs every 1/2 hour is more like it. No bolus. Never had another stomach issue after I learned that. The other thing I learned about my stomach was to be sure to drink enough on the bike that I have to pee at every control, or else stay at the control drinking water until I did. I'm not a fast rider and hated to lose time stopped, but that was faster than the alternative - stomach upset and its cousin, the near-bonk. Gotta keep the stomach osmolality low. I'm in favor of micromanaging everything, though I'm not as crazy as I used to be. Habits are a good thing.

Darth Lefty 

What about the unorthodox use of "carbo" instead of "carbs"?

Morimorimori

Sorry everyone that I haven't answered in a while.. Had a lot on my plate..

As I live in a country that uses metric system, a "century ride" is 100km around here So I eat very little, as it takes less than 4 hours to complete. I usually eat a huge breakfast (more like an early dinner), with a lots of slow burning carbs and sufficient protein as well. Then I take a 700ml bottle of sweet isotonic with me which provides may be 15-20g of carbs per hour to offset glycogen depletion a bit, a 700ml of plain water in another bottle, and may be a couple of musli bars (rarely use more than one). That's enough for me to reach my final destination about a time I'm starting to feel an approaching bonk, then I call it a day and go to grab some food in a local cafe.

For brevets of 200k I didn't use a well-planed feeding strategy before. Usually I just took a bunch of gels with me to use as a last resort, a bunch of sweet bars, the isotonic from before - and relied on something I could buy along the way, which could be anything, from Snikers bars to marshmallows to shawarma. I never tried to calculate the amount of carbs I consume, and never tried to establish some feeding schedule to follow. Just tried to drink something sweet from time to time, and have a bite of something I had in my pockets.

Morimorimori

"Less" most definitely doesn't suite my case I tried to eat less before, and it created issues (bonk-kind of issues) on regular basis. That's of course is attributed to my riding stile, as I prefer to ride more dynamically, and such tempo requires carbs to sustain. Moreover, I'm aiming to achieve at least 27kph of average speed on distances of 300 to 600 km - so slowing down won't do for me

As I mentioned in my previous post, if I eat a massive breakfast (up to 1000kcal), and drink from a bottle of sweet isotonic from time to time, I can cover about 100km before I'll feel bonked and will have to eat something - when I'm riding at this tempo.

Milk is out of question, my stomach can't stand it unfortunately...

Noted, though I don't see why I should do that. My plan is to carry them in powder form, and prepare the mixture right before I'll consume it.

I already have a stockpile of gainer for my gym sessions, so I'll just use it for the coming season, I bought more than enough. If it works, I may invest more time into researching what other options are available.

Thanks for all the tips, really appreciated!

unterhausen

Is "gainer" high carb? You can get away with eating just about anything on a ~200km ride. Although when I did a 200k on almost all malto/whey mix, I got nauseous with 30 miles left. Getting the salt mix correct in my mix was never something I mastered.

On one of my 1200km grand randonnees, I'm pretty sure most of my calories came from some form of chocolate milk and Reese's peanut butter cups. I switched it up by drinking cold cappuccino drinks in the mornings. At about day 3 the craving for real food became overwhelming. It was so hot I'm somewhat amazed that I got enough salt.

GhostRider62

Sometimes. Experience is the best teacher.

With all due respect 27 km/h moving isn't very fast. Going from 300 onwards to 600km or more becomes an input and output balance. Focus getting that right. GL. Let us know how your 400 and 600k goes. You won't be riding either at tempo.

Morimorimori

Thanks. I also liked this summarization by Dylan Jhonson who does great work of explaining complex matters with simple words, backed up by actual science researches:
Gainer is usually 1/4 or 1/3 proteins, and the rest is carbo, plus a tiny bit of fats. They advertise it as "a regular food substitution", sort of, like when you don't have other opportunities to get a proper meal. My plan is only using gainer at times when I won't find a more healthy meal rich on carbs - because eating only different kinds of sweets gets rather old, in a long run.

I always carry isotonic powders and tablets, they weight nothing anyway, so at least this isn't big problem for me.

It's always useful to look at a problem from different perspective, so no, you input is valuable as any other, thank you for sharing.

Morimorimori

Gainer is usually 2/3 or 3/4 carbs, the rest is protein. So, similar to your usual bowl of pasta and chicken. From my experience, I learned that me personally can get away without a proper nutrition plan on a ride up to 150km top (though sometimes I reach a pre-bonk state even sooner). That's because I usually don't have a type of food at hand I could eat again and again while going, plus the need to eat something every 20 minutes sort of irritates me during a long run, I tend to start skipping it, or forgetting until it's too late. I thought about gainer because a) it's easier to consume - you just gulp it down, clean your bottle from remains, refill it with water and get back on the road and b) usually gainer has something they call "carbo matrix" which is a combo of fast and slow burning carbohydrates to maintain increased but steady (no sudden spikes) blood sugar level for a prolonged period of time. So I hoped I could just go for an hour on one such drink.

The problem with relying on a particular product you can't carry with you in required amount - you can't be sure you'll be able to buy it away from big cities. At least it's like this in our country (not a very rich one). In a small town, or village, you won't have that much of a choice, only a limited selection of basic cheap foods and sweets.

Morimorimori

It's is for me, for now I'm at about 3w/kg power output at the moment. Also, I'm counting in such factors as above average elevation gains and headwinds which can hamper you greatly. My speed in a pulse zone that won't require that much carbs (i.e. fueled by burning body fats) will be less than 25kph, I project, closer to 20kph - which isn't enough for my goal.

Thank you, I will. I don't worry about 300k that much, some way or another I'll cover it. I'm not so sure about 400k and 600k though.. That's why I want to prepare properly.