The Way Of The (Mafac) Racer
03-20-21, 02:19 PM
#176
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Hi everybody. I've got a Mafac Racer front cable hanger question.
I would like to use my set of Racers with my 1951/1952 Sun Wasp "Massed Start" DB 531 build. They are great brakes, and would have been a somewhat period correct upgrade for the bike a few years after production. It would also save me some money in this build instead of buying GB Coureur brakes off eBay. The trick is that the front hangar (below) has its little tooth to fit into the top of the threaded fork, but the indent in the Sun Wasp fork is front-facing, instead of toward the back of the bike. I can't use this hangar.
Does anyone have suggestions on a similar one I could find that would work? Thank you.
20210320_154245
I would like to use my set of Racers with my 1951/1952 Sun Wasp "Massed Start" DB 531 build. They are great brakes, and would have been a somewhat period correct upgrade for the bike a few years after production. It would also save me some money in this build instead of buying GB Coureur brakes off eBay. The trick is that the front hangar (below) has its little tooth to fit into the top of the threaded fork, but the indent in the Sun Wasp fork is front-facing, instead of toward the back of the bike. I can't use this hangar.
Does anyone have suggestions on a similar one I could find that would work? Thank you.
20210320_154245
03-20-21, 04:36 PM
#177
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I would like to use my set of Racers with my 1951/1952 Sun Wasp "Massed Start" DB 531 build. They are great brakes, and would have been a somewhat period correct upgrade for the bike a few years after production. It would also save me some money in this build instead of buying GB Coureur brakes off eBay. The trick is that the front hangar (below) has its little tooth to fit into the top of the threaded fork, but the indent in the Sun Wasp fork is front-facing, instead of toward the back of the bike. I can't use this hangar.
Does anyone have suggestions on a similar one I could find that would work?
Does anyone have suggestions on a similar one I could find that would work?
03-20-21, 05:30 PM
#178
十人十色
Another solution is to ditch the hanger and drill a small hole through the stem. Done neatly with a sink for the cable end it looks cool and I think much nice than the hanger. It saves a bot of weight, as well. To make it really trick you tap the hole to the thread size of the adjuster.
This is the GB stem on my trike:
This is the GB stem on my trike:
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03-20-21, 07:00 PM
#179
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Random experiences with Mafac Racers and other Mafac parts: For rain/city/winter bikes, those make super front brakes. I prefer Weinmanns or Diacompes for the rear because they are both stiffer and weaker, so with the longer housing, they feel the same as the Mafac fronts and being weaker for the rear is simple better. (Rode in town this morning on that setup in light rain and wet roads. Never thought about stopping power once and it was downhill and downwind. (Tektro levers, CX interrupter levers that I forgot to use and KoolStop pads.)
Mafac Cantilevers: I had my Mooney built for them. First winter, I rode down Alba Road above Santa Cruz in a January Pacific storm. 2000' in 4 miles. Very curvy road, mediocre pavement and rivers of water running across it. I had to brake continuously to keep speed down for the turns (tire traction being the big issue). The first half I used just my index fingers on the brakes. Then the steady braking and wet cold took their toll and I had to go to 2 fingers for the rest. At the bottom "these brakes work!" Sadly for Mafac, they came off when I picked up an early Miyata 610 with the nicer Shimano cantis (of the exact same geometry).
Mafac levers: I'm a complete aero fan so once they showed up, I was never going back. That said, the Racer levers were sweet. Big; my hands loved them and the rolled metal on the lever undersides meant that I never wore the skin off my index or middle finger climbing walls on my fix gear. I set my Mooney up with 2000 levers. Beautiful but brutal for my hands.
And my dream: that someone buys or makes the tooling to forge and make those Racer calipers again. Yes, I can get CNC'd Pauls. but my engineering mind tells me it wants to trust our life to forged arms, especially on a brake that might get used far too long. I see those Racers as being an engineering wonder. Cheap, easy to make (once you have the forge), they work really well for a long time (in fact long after lots of play has happened) and I don't think I've ever heard of a failure that wasn't pure mechanic or rider error. And is there a caliper that got used more? There were a lot of Peugeot UO-8s made!
Mafac Cantilevers: I had my Mooney built for them. First winter, I rode down Alba Road above Santa Cruz in a January Pacific storm. 2000' in 4 miles. Very curvy road, mediocre pavement and rivers of water running across it. I had to brake continuously to keep speed down for the turns (tire traction being the big issue). The first half I used just my index fingers on the brakes. Then the steady braking and wet cold took their toll and I had to go to 2 fingers for the rest. At the bottom "these brakes work!" Sadly for Mafac, they came off when I picked up an early Miyata 610 with the nicer Shimano cantis (of the exact same geometry).
Mafac levers: I'm a complete aero fan so once they showed up, I was never going back. That said, the Racer levers were sweet. Big; my hands loved them and the rolled metal on the lever undersides meant that I never wore the skin off my index or middle finger climbing walls on my fix gear. I set my Mooney up with 2000 levers. Beautiful but brutal for my hands.
And my dream: that someone buys or makes the tooling to forge and make those Racer calipers again. Yes, I can get CNC'd Pauls. but my engineering mind tells me it wants to trust our life to forged arms, especially on a brake that might get used far too long. I see those Racers as being an engineering wonder. Cheap, easy to make (once you have the forge), they work really well for a long time (in fact long after lots of play has happened) and I don't think I've ever heard of a failure that wasn't pure mechanic or rider error. And is there a caliper that got used more? There were a lot of Peugeot UO-8s made!
03-20-21, 08:56 PM
#180
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Sounds like your Sun was intended for side-pulls. Housing hangers always have the tongue in back, AFAIK.
I recommend you use the one you have, after filing the tab off with a half-round file, or other tool of your choice. Another option is to add another new key-way in the back of the steerer, not too difficult to create one with a warding file.
Tongue washers are optional on headsets. I usually use one, but when I don't, I still have no trouble adjusting the headset and locking it in place. With a hanger with no tongue, you'll have to adjust the position of the hanger at the same time as you tighten down the headset locknut — a bit of a juggling act, but it only needs to be done once in a long while (interval between headset overhauls). If you have enough steerer length, try two tongue washers, one above and one below the hanger, so adjusting the headset won't tend to make the hanger rotate out of position.
Mark B
03-21-21, 07:07 AM
#181
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Another solution is to ditch the hanger and drill a small hole through the stem. Done neatly with a sink for the cable end it looks cool and I think much nice than the hanger. It saves a bot of weight, as well. To make it really trick you tap the hole to the thread size of the adjuster.
This is the GB stem on my trike:
This is the GB stem on my trike:
Random experiences with Mafac Racers and other Mafac parts: For rain/city/winter bikes, those make super front brakes. I prefer Weinmanns or Diacompes for the rear because they are both stiffer and weaker, so with the longer housing, they feel the same as the Mafac fronts and being weaker for the rear is simple better. (Rode in town this morning on that setup in light rain and wet roads. Never thought about stopping power once and it was downhill and downwind. (Tektro levers, CX interrupter levers that I forgot to use and KoolStop pads.)
Mafac Cantilevers: I had my Mooney built for them. First winter, I rode down Alba Road above Santa Cruz in a January Pacific storm. 2000' in 4 miles. Very curvy road, mediocre pavement and rivers of water running across it. I had to brake continuously to keep speed down for the turns (tire traction being the big issue). The first half I used just my index fingers on the brakes. Then the steady braking and wet cold took their toll and I had to go to 2 fingers for the rest. At the bottom "these brakes work!" Sadly for Mafac, they came off when I picked up an early Miyata 610 with the nicer Shimano cantis (of the exact same geometry).
Mafac levers: I'm a complete aero fan so once they showed up, I was never going back. That said, the Racer levers were sweet. Big; my hands loved them and the rolled metal on the lever undersides meant that I never wore the skin off my index or middle finger climbing walls on my fix gear. I set my Mooney up with 2000 levers. Beautiful but brutal for my hands.
And my dream: that someone buys or makes the tooling to forge and make those Racer calipers again. Yes, I can get CNC'd Pauls. but my engineering mind tells me it wants to trust our life to forged arms, especially on a brake that might get used far too long. I see those Racers as being an engineering wonder. Cheap, easy to make (once you have the forge), they work really well for a long time (in fact long after lots of play has happened) and I don't think I've ever heard of a failure that wasn't pure mechanic or rider error. And is there a caliper that got used more? There were a lot of Peugeot UO-8s made!
Mafac Cantilevers: I had my Mooney built for them. First winter, I rode down Alba Road above Santa Cruz in a January Pacific storm. 2000' in 4 miles. Very curvy road, mediocre pavement and rivers of water running across it. I had to brake continuously to keep speed down for the turns (tire traction being the big issue). The first half I used just my index fingers on the brakes. Then the steady braking and wet cold took their toll and I had to go to 2 fingers for the rest. At the bottom "these brakes work!" Sadly for Mafac, they came off when I picked up an early Miyata 610 with the nicer Shimano cantis (of the exact same geometry).
Mafac levers: I'm a complete aero fan so once they showed up, I was never going back. That said, the Racer levers were sweet. Big; my hands loved them and the rolled metal on the lever undersides meant that I never wore the skin off my index or middle finger climbing walls on my fix gear. I set my Mooney up with 2000 levers. Beautiful but brutal for my hands.
And my dream: that someone buys or makes the tooling to forge and make those Racer calipers again. Yes, I can get CNC'd Pauls. but my engineering mind tells me it wants to trust our life to forged arms, especially on a brake that might get used far too long. I see those Racers as being an engineering wonder. Cheap, easy to make (once you have the forge), they work really well for a long time (in fact long after lots of play has happened) and I don't think I've ever heard of a failure that wasn't pure mechanic or rider error. And is there a caliper that got used more? There were a lot of Peugeot UO-8s made!
FYI, a hangar is a building for airplanes. You want a hanger.
Sounds like your Sun was intended for side-pulls. Housing hangers always have the tongue in back, AFAIK.
I recommend you use the one you have, after filing the tab off with a half-round file, or other tool of your choice. Another option is to add another new key-way in the back of the steerer, not too difficult to create one with a warding file.
Tongue washers are optional on headsets. I usually use one, but when I don't, I still have no trouble adjusting the headset and locking it in place. With a hanger with no tongue, you'll have to adjust the position of the hanger at the same time as you tighten down the headset locknut — a bit of a juggling act, but it only needs to be done once in a long while (interval between headset overhauls). If you have enough steerer length, try two tongue washers, one above and one below the hanger, so adjusting the headset won't tend to make the hanger rotate out of position.
Mark B
Sounds like your Sun was intended for side-pulls. Housing hangers always have the tongue in back, AFAIK.
I recommend you use the one you have, after filing the tab off with a half-round file, or other tool of your choice. Another option is to add another new key-way in the back of the steerer, not too difficult to create one with a warding file.
Tongue washers are optional on headsets. I usually use one, but when I don't, I still have no trouble adjusting the headset and locking it in place. With a hanger with no tongue, you'll have to adjust the position of the hanger at the same time as you tighten down the headset locknut — a bit of a juggling act, but it only needs to be done once in a long while (interval between headset overhauls). If you have enough steerer length, try two tongue washers, one above and one below the hanger, so adjusting the headset won't tend to make the hanger rotate out of position.
Mark B
I'm going to try filing the tab off and using a washer out of my kit. Like I said, I've got these Racers with KoolStop pads already installed and they worked well with my AO8.
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03-21-21, 07:49 PM
#182
blahblahblah chrome moly
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Here's the GB "Forged Hiduminium" stem on one of my bikes:
I actually milled and drilled and tapped it myself, but aiming to make it look like the "factory" drilled model from GB. That adjusting barrel is from a Suntour V-GT derailer.
Nowadays I usually avoid changing historical parts like that, which will confuse future bike collectors. But when I did it, in about 1976, these parts weren't so old and rare.
That's a '71 Super Course there. Yes, that fork was never meant to have a Campy headset. "Rules were made to be broken".
Mark B
I actually milled and drilled and tapped it myself, but aiming to make it look like the "factory" drilled model from GB. That adjusting barrel is from a Suntour V-GT derailer.
Nowadays I usually avoid changing historical parts like that, which will confuse future bike collectors. But when I did it, in about 1976, these parts weren't so old and rare.
That's a '71 Super Course there. Yes, that fork was never meant to have a Campy headset. "Rules were made to be broken".
Mark B
03-21-21, 09:51 PM
#183
十人十色
Here's the GB "Forged Hiduminium" stem on one of my bikes:
I actually milled and drilled and tapped it myself, but aiming to make it look like the "factory" drilled model from GB. That adjusting barrel is from a Suntour V-GT derailer.
Nowadays I usually avoid changing historical parts like that, which will confuse future bike collectors. But when I did it, in about 1976, these parts weren't so old and rare.
That's a '71 Super Course there. Yes, that fork was never meant to have a Campy headset. "Rules were made to be broken".
Mark B
I actually milled and drilled and tapped it myself, but aiming to make it look like the "factory" drilled model from GB. That adjusting barrel is from a Suntour V-GT derailer.
Nowadays I usually avoid changing historical parts like that, which will confuse future bike collectors. But when I did it, in about 1976, these parts weren't so old and rare.
That's a '71 Super Course there. Yes, that fork was never meant to have a Campy headset. "Rules were made to be broken".
Mark B
Modifying historical parts is a tricky subject but generally I agree.
06-23-21, 06:34 AM
#184
Newbie
Great and informative thread. Regarding upgrading the front hanger to a newer/stiffer one, does anybody have any input/recommendations on what to get? Looking to upgrade this for my Peugeot PR-10 so it would need to be compatible with the headset - any inputs on how to check compatibility?
The front cable hangers I've found are the Dia-Compe Cable Hanger for Ahead and Problem Solvers Cross Cable Hanger but don't know about compatibility.
Cheers,
Karl
The front cable hangers I've found are the Dia-Compe Cable Hanger for Ahead and Problem Solvers Cross Cable Hanger but don't know about compatibility.
Cheers,
Karl
06-23-21, 12:08 PM
#185
blahblahblah chrome moly
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Great and informative thread. Regarding upgrading the front hanger to a newer/stiffer one, does anybody have any input/recommendations on what to get? Looking to upgrade this for my Peugeot PR-10 so it would need to be compatible with the headset - any inputs on how to check compatibility?
The front cable hangers I've found are the Dia-Compe Cable Hanger for Ahead and Problem Solvers Cross Cable Hanger but don't know about compatibility.
Cheers,
Karl
The front cable hangers I've found are the Dia-Compe Cable Hanger for Ahead and Problem Solvers Cross Cable Hanger but don't know about compatibility.
Cheers,
Karl
Personally on a nice old bike like that I'd rather have an original Mafac hanger. Any modern replacement will look bad, to my eye. Some people overestimate the downside of flex. It does not reduce your braking "power" at all, unless you run out of lever travel, i.e. bottoming the lever against the handlebar. Mafac levers have abundant travel, unless you have your brakes adjusted very loose, to where most of your lever travel is used up moving the pads through the air to get to the rim. As Archie Bell and the Drells sang, "Do the Tighten-Up."
I suspect the two hangers you mention are not compatible, but I didn't research it. The word "Ahead" makes me think that one is made for threadless steerers. Remember your stack height of the headset plus hanger thickness has to fit the cut length of your steerer, or else you won't have enough threads for the top nut.
Mark B
06-23-21, 06:18 PM
#186
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I purchased a 1971 (I think) Gitane TdF yesterday, brought it home, and proceeded to preflight it to make sure everything was okay. Checking the front brakes (these are Competitions), I noticed that the left (when facing the bike from the front) pad was loose. Tried to tighten it up, but it remained loose. It was then that I noticed that the left side spacer was narrower than the right. Sure enough, upon checking the rear brake, it was clear that this spacer was the odd-man-out, as all the others are thicker. So I'm thinking this must be the issue, right?
As I have some spare Racers around (who doesn't?) with the thicker spacer, I'm thinking this will fix the issue. Gonna give it a shot tomorrow.
As I have some spare Racers around (who doesn't?) with the thicker spacer, I'm thinking this will fix the issue. Gonna give it a shot tomorrow.
06-23-21, 06:36 PM
#187
blahblahblah chrome moly
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BTW nice score on the TdF, is the rest of the bike as pristine as that brake pic?
If that's a front brake then I think the pad holders may be backwards, open end facing the front? A bit hard to tell from the pic so I may be way off there.
Mark B
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06-23-21, 07:09 PM
#188
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I read somewhere recently that GB stems weren't ever 'factory' drilled, but that it was a popular mod back in the day. Checking on the VeloBase entry for the stem just now I see the consensus there is that they were never offered by GB, with one person qualifying that claim by pointing out 'they were never advertised'.
Modifying historical parts is a tricky subject but generally I agree.
Modifying historical parts is a tricky subject but generally I agree.
I think it enhances it when done for function in an elegant way! And y’alls’ do!
now...how about some brifters with those Mafacs...
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1987 Crest Cannondale, 1987 Basso Gap, 1992 Rossin Performance EL, 1990ish Van Tuyl, 1985 Trek 670, 1982 AD SLE, 2003 Pinarello Surprise, 1990ish MBK Atlantique, 1987 Peugeot Competition, 1987 Nishiki Tri-A, 1981 Faggin, 1996 Cannondale M500, 1984 Mercian, 1982 AD SuperLeicht, 1985 Massi (model unknown), 1988 Daccordi Griffe , 1989 Fauxsin MTB, 1981 Ciocc Mockba, 1992 Bianchi Giro, 1977 Colnago Super
06-23-21, 08:38 PM
#189
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But then your Racer will be one spacer short, right? You need a Racer Spacer™? PM me your address if you want, I can send you one. It will be used, "patinated", but usable.
BTW nice score on the TdF, is the rest of the bike as pristine as that brake pic?
If that's a front brake then I think the pad holders may be backwards, open end facing the front? A bit hard to tell from the pic so I may be way off there.
Mark B
BTW nice score on the TdF, is the rest of the bike as pristine as that brake pic?
If that's a front brake then I think the pad holders may be backwards, open end facing the front? A bit hard to tell from the pic so I may be way off there.
Mark B
The rest of the TdF is in great shape, I'll post the pics to a gallery. I had huge regret for selling a very pristine gold 1972 TdF a couple of years ago, so I have been keeping my eyes open for another one of the same quality. Happened to find one on the local craigslist, in blue, that has the "upgrade" package: high flange Campy hubs, Huret derailleurs (Jubilee RD!), and as an added bonus Mavic tubular wheelset.
No, the pads both front and rear are set up correctly, open end facing rear.
Thanks Mark!
EDIT: Here's the Gitane TdF gallery.
Last edited by johnnyace; 06-23-21 at 08:45 PM.
11-28-21, 07:54 AM
#190
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I had a weinmann vainqueur 750 front brake on my fixed gear townie with kool stop mtb pads. It worked "fine" with the Cane Creek SCR-5, but it wasn't super powerful (far from locking the front wheel). Mafac racers have nicer bolts and parts and are smaller, so I thought it would be an improvement. I haven't been able to get them to be at least as good as the Weinmann after fiddling around with straddle cable height, pads in, pads out, etc. Whatever I do, it seems the result is always the same: it slows me down, but barely.
Am I setting them up correctly?
(In the pics the brake looks cramped with the rack's tab, but there's space and it never touches; the cables are uncut because I'm still fiddling with them)
Am I setting them up correctly?
- center brakes, tighten crown bolt
- install cable hanger at desired height (I tried from lowest possible to current distance (see pics) and tighten
- thread shifter cable through the little bolt stopper, the hanger and the other arm's bolt, then remove slack and tighten (I do not move the arms towards the rim at all!, just removing slack)
- adjust alignment and distance of pads to the rim, tighten
- go ride
(In the pics the brake looks cramped with the rack's tab, but there's space and it never touches; the cables are uncut because I'm still fiddling with them)
11-28-21, 12:44 PM
#191
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@mariachi, 1. shorten the straddle cable as much as possible. That will increase leverage. 2. Also, maybe the straddle cable is too flexible. It looks to be braided. Use a regular twisted cable, such as your main brake cable is. 3. Another thing to try is raising the pads a little on the caliper arms and then you'll have to point them down a bit. Maybe shortening the effective length of the caliper arm will increase leverage.
Thank you for posting excellent pictures.
Thank you for posting excellent pictures.
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“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author
Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
11-28-21, 01:14 PM
#192
Full Member
Probably irrelevant since I'm guessing you're using the same cable hanger mounted on the headset, but I personally noticed a massive improvement in brake power and reduced sponginess on my Zeus by dumping the Weinmann/Dia Compe QR-style headset hanger and swapping over to the simpler and stiffer Mafac hanger (w/o QR). With the Weinmann, you could see the hanger flexing pretty badly when pulling on the brake lever.
11-28-21, 01:54 PM
#193
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@mariachi, 1. shorten the straddle cable as much as possible. That will increase leverage. 2. Also, maybe the straddle cable is too flexible. It looks to be braided. Use a regular twisted cable, such as your main brake cable is. 3. Another thing to try is raising the pads a little on the caliper arms and then you'll have to point them down a bit. Maybe shortening the effective length of the caliper arm will increase leverage.
Thank you for posting excellent pictures.
Thank you for posting excellent pictures.
No problem, I may post pictures of the full bike if I can make it lock the front wheel
11-28-21, 02:52 PM
#194
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@mariachi, too much mechanical advantage would make the braking action feel mushy or would allow the lever to reach the bar before you get maximum braking. I'm not saying to make the pads closer, but it won't hurt and might help. Of course you have to leave a little room for the inevitable wheel wobble.
Raising the yoke (not the hanger) by lengthening the straddle (yoke) cable decreases mechanical advantage. That might feel like a hard stop when you pull the lever. You want more, not less.
Don't lock your front wheel while riding. That will pitch you over. You want to slow it fast.
Raising the yoke (not the hanger) by lengthening the straddle (yoke) cable decreases mechanical advantage. That might feel like a hard stop when you pull the lever. You want more, not less.
Don't lock your front wheel while riding. That will pitch you over. You want to slow it fast.
__________________
Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog
“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author
Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog
“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author
Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
