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Addiction 2022.4

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Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Addiction 2022.4

Old 11-27-22, 02:08 PM
  #2651  
Bah Humbug
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Originally Posted by datlas
Maybe an aficionado of SlowTwitch like Bah Humbug knows more about this....just thinking out loud....

I think it's obvious to all of us that a more open/larger hip angle (ie slightly more upright position on the bike) gives a higher power output, but at the expense of more wind resistance, so less aero. That's why most of us get lower on descents and/or pulling at the front, and sit up more on climbs and/or when in a draft or going at a lower intensity.

So is there a more analytical way to find the right compromise/sweet spot for how low to bend at the hips??

I know TT/Triathletes have tried (and to a great extent, succeeded) to have their cake and eat it too, by changing the position on the bike to make the body more aero but keep the hip angle relatively open by rotating the whole body forward. I even see it's documented that cyclists will have a higher FTP and V02 max on their road bike than their TT bike, but of course the aero advantages of the TT bike should more than outweigh the modest improvement in power on a road bike.

So for a road cyclist, other than go by "feel," (which is what I do, and I suspect most of us do, consciously or not), I wonder if there is a better way to measure the tradeoff here and help find the optimal position for various riding situations? I am afraid the only way to know for sure is to use both a wind tunnel AND a power meter at the same time, and I expect that this information is both proprietary and may vary by rider.

Comments??
You're probably right about the difficulty in finding the sweet spot. The other thing triathletes do is use the shortest cranks they can to keep the hips more open at the top for a given torso position.

Rotating the whole body forward, of course, also tends to worsen handling. You can put drop bars on a tri frame, of course, but it won't handle like a road bike. It's fast for a drop-bar TT though.

And then there are training trade-offs - you can't hit the peak power at a tighter hip angle, but it won't tax you more at the level you can reach, so training in an un-aero position will help put out more when you're in the tight/ low position.

You said you're just thinking out loud - anything you intend on doing with this?
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Old 11-27-22, 02:14 PM
  #2652  
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Originally Posted by Bah Humbug
You're probably right about the difficulty in finding the sweet spot. The other thing triathletes do is use the shortest cranks they can to keep the hips more open at the top for a given torso position.

Rotating the whole body forward, of course, also tends to worsen handling. You can put drop bars on a tri frame, of course, but it won't handle like a road bike. It's fast for a drop-bar TT though.

And then there are training trade-offs - you can't hit the peak power at a tighter hip angle, but it won't tax you more at the level you can reach, so training in an un-aero position will help put out more when you're in the tight/ low position.

You said you're just thinking out loud - anything you intend on doing with this?
I wouldn’t mind improving my on-bike performance without having to endure stupid intervals. I am kinda lazy that way.
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Old 11-27-22, 04:02 PM
  #2653  
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Originally Posted by bampilot06
While I was riding this morning, on the creakvelo, I started thinking about how I would change the shifting cables when the time comes. I have never done this before and the RD cable goes into the frame. I was thinking I could unfasten the cable from the rear derailer and shifter, pull the cable out of the housing, sliding fishing wire through the housing so it is sticking out of both sides. Then pull the cable housing out leaving the fishing line behind, slide the new housing over the fishing line, pull the fishing line out and then insert the new cable.

Im sure I could have youtubed, but this is what I came up with on todays ride. Sounds like it should work. Thoughts?
My technique: housing liner. Slide one piece over the cable from the hole on the chain stay out of the BB; pull the cable out of that; thread another piece over the cable from the BB to the frame exit. Leave a piece of liner on the cable at the friction point under the BB.

Last edited by MoAlpha; 11-27-22 at 04:12 PM.
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Old 11-27-22, 04:03 PM
  #2654  
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Originally Posted by datlas
I wouldn’t mind improving my on-bike performance without having to endure stupid intervals. I am kinda lazy that way.
Ha, well of course. You can try getting low but the typical roadie position is there for a reason - intervals might be more fun than position work. Or you can tune all the aero and RR stuff besides that.
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Old 11-27-22, 04:06 PM
  #2655  
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Originally Posted by datlas
Maybe an aficionado of SlowTwitch like Bah Humbug knows more about this....just thinking out loud....

I think it's obvious to all of us that a more open/larger hip angle (ie slightly more upright position on the bike) gives a higher power output, but at the expense of more wind resistance, so less aero. That's why most of us get lower on descents and/or pulling at the front, and sit up more on climbs and/or when in a draft or going at a lower intensity.

So is there a more analytical way to find the right compromise/sweet spot for how low to bend at the hips??

I know TT/Triathletes have tried (and to a great extent, succeeded) to have their cake and eat it too, by changing the position on the bike to make the body more aero but keep the hip angle relatively open by rotating the whole body forward. I even see it's documented that cyclists will have a higher FTP and V02 max on their road bike than their TT bike, but of course the aero advantages of the TT bike should more than outweigh the modest improvement in power on a road bike.

So for a road cyclist, other than go by "feel," (which is what I do, and I suspect most of us do, consciously or not), I wonder if there is a better way to measure the tradeoff here and help find the optimal position for various riding situations? I am afraid the only way to know for sure is to use both a wind tunnel AND a power meter at the same time, and I expect that this information is both proprietary and may vary by rider.

Comments??
Heathpack was doing this kind of training. She might be able to help you out.
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Old 11-27-22, 04:29 PM
  #2656  
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Originally Posted by Bah Humbug
Ha, well of course. You can try getting low but the typical roadie position is there for a reason - intervals might be more fun than position work. Or you can tune all the aero and RR stuff besides that.
Yeah, at this point I am just trying to be more cognizant of wind resistance and adjust body position to what feels best. Comfort is also a factor, obv.
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Old 11-27-22, 04:52 PM
  #2657  
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Originally Posted by datlas
Yeah, at this point I am just trying to be more cognizant of wind resistance and adjust body position to what feels best. Comfort is also a factor, obv.

Forearms parallel to the ground while on the hoods.
If you can get your bike set up so that position is comfortable, it made a difference for me.
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Old 11-27-22, 04:56 PM
  #2658  
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Originally Posted by bampilot06
When I put this new groupset on the Ritchey, can I use the old housing for brakes and shifting or should I replace everything?
New groupset, new housing. I mean, it's like $40 for a full set, right? Cheapest part of the whole thing!
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Old 11-27-22, 05:00 PM
  #2659  
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Originally Posted by rjones28
Mrs. rjones28 agrees.
Have you ever heard Anna Russell's Guide To Wagner's Ring? Even if you don't know the opera's it's funny. If you DO know them, it's a scream - "Our story begins in the River Rhine.... IN IT!"

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Old 11-27-22, 05:06 PM
  #2660  
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Originally Posted by genejockey
New groupset, new housing. I mean, it's like $40 for a full set, right? Cheapest part of the whole thing!

Yes.
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Old 11-27-22, 05:35 PM
  #2661  
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Originally Posted by bampilot06
When I put this new groupset on the Ritchey, can I use the old housing for brakes and shifting or should I replace everything?
New shift cables and housing definitely. Brakes? Maybe new cables, occasionally new housing, depending on circumstances.
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Old 11-27-22, 05:40 PM
  #2662  
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Bear Grylls fell 16000 FT?

Wow.

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Old 11-27-22, 06:02 PM
  #2663  
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Originally Posted by LesterOfPuppets
What in the hell were you Googling to stumble onto this?
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Old 11-27-22, 06:49 PM
  #2664  
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Originally Posted by LesterOfPuppets

I wonder if I’m related to Alan. Makes sense why I have a massive fear of heights embedded in my soul.
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Old 11-27-22, 06:55 PM
  #2665  
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Originally Posted by thin_concrete
What in the hell were you Googling to stumble onto this?
No Googling, just twatting around in teh twitterverse
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Old 11-27-22, 08:37 PM
  #2666  
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Slow night. Everyone must be watching the defense battle in Philadelphia.
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Old 11-28-22, 12:11 AM
  #2667  
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Originally Posted by Bah Humbug
... no diagnosis today because they aren't running tests on a Sunday? Because apparently life and death can wait like bankers?
Those clubs aren't going to walk themselves around the green you know.
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Old 11-28-22, 01:45 AM
  #2668  
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Originally Posted by bampilot06
Forearms parallel to the ground while on the hoods.
If you can get your bike set up so that position is comfortable, it made a difference for me.
I can do this position for a couple miles but then my arms get tired. Drops is more comfortable but less aero. There are a couple segments 1-3 miles long, usually at least one on each of my rides, where it's a slight descent or flat(or both) and no stops or cross traffic, and I can get low and push hard. I've practiced doing drops and aero hoods on those and I've been able to increase how long I can stay in aero hoods on those. I can really feel the difference between that and regular hoods.
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Old 11-28-22, 04:50 AM
  #2669  
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Happy National French Toast Day!
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Old 11-28-22, 05:38 AM
  #2670  
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Originally Posted by genejockey
I can do this position for a couple miles but then my arms get tired. Drops is more comfortable but less aero. There are a couple segments 1-3 miles long, usually at least one on each of my rides, where it's a slight descent or flat(or both) and no stops or cross traffic, and I can get low and push hard. I've practiced doing drops and aero hoods on those and I've been able to increase how long I can stay in aero hoods on those. I can really feel the difference between that and regular hoods.

I can stay in that position the whole time on the Cervelo and the Madone, The Ritchey my left tricep starts to get tired which is weird. I still need to figure that out. I prolly need to raise the stem 2mm, but I like how the bike handles and feels currently.
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Old 11-28-22, 05:45 AM
  #2671  
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⬛🟩🟨🟩⬛
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Daily Quordle 308
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quordle.com
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Should have waited...
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Old 11-28-22, 06:22 AM
  #2672  
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Originally Posted by indyfabz
Happy National French Toast Day!
What about National French Shower Day?
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Old 11-28-22, 06:31 AM
  #2673  
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Old 11-28-22, 07:15 AM
  #2674  
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Originally Posted by bampilot06
I can stay in that position the whole time on the Cervelo and the Madone, The Ritchey my left tricep starts to get tired which is weird. I still need to figure that out. I prolly need to raise the stem 2mm, but I like how the bike handles and feels currently.
I can’t hold that position in my current setup without a longer stem, probably need another 20mm
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Old 11-28-22, 07:19 AM
  #2675  
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This might be P&R and/or 50+, but here goes.

For some reason the feed for "Dr Berg" popped up in my youtube feed. There was a video about how you should stop taking statins and take niacin instead for your heart.

The guy is a chiro and has a HUGE following. Of course if you do a scientific literature search you will see that the data to support Niacin is incredibly weak, while the data to support statins is quite strong and robust. Example: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6481694/

I suppose I should just chalk this up to more fake news, and anyone can now be an expert online.

Comments?
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