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Flu shot

Old 11-29-22, 10:10 PM
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Only 11% of Americans have had the latest bivalent booster. 89% have said nope. I am one of the 89% because I had COVID in August(I was fully vaccinated and boosted) and natural immunity should outweigh the 30-60 days you get with the booster based on what my GP told me at my latest check up. The GP did not say yay or nay but just stated the facts. A vaccine it is not, it is more like a flu shot at this point. And flu shots are not always effective in any given year. My wife and I are 70 years old and my children(3), spouses(3) and grandchildren(7) all came down with COVID. And all were vaccinated and boosted. One spouse has had it twice. Everyone wore masks and followed the rules and nothing stopped it.
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Old 11-29-22, 10:56 PM
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Originally Posted by themp View Post
A vaccine it is not, it is more like a flu shot .
The "flu shot" is a vaccine.
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Old 12-05-22, 10:05 PM
  #53  
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Most of us old enough to be participating in the 50+ forum had multiple doses of some vaccines, but probably have forgotten. That wasn't unusual in the 1950s-'60s, and still common for some immunization against certain diseases, notably polio, diphtheria, pertussis and tetanus. If our military duty or jobs take us overseas we'll usually get a number of other vaccinations. By the time I finished boot camp in 1976 I'd had at least a dozen injections, including for plague, since rotation for my rating usually included a stint in Okinawa, Japan, other parts of Asia, Africa, etc.

Earlier this year my apartment was flooded (elderly neighbors upstairs trying to flush disposable diapers and sanitary wipes, which don't disintegrate in water and tend to hang up on the insides of the old cast iron pipes in this building). Unfortunately one of my family photo and keepsake albums got wet, including my childhood vaccination record. The red ink pen used for some entries blurred, but I could see that, before first grade, I'd received four DPT injections and five treatments for polio (at least one of which was the sugar cube, which I remember). I do remember receiving more than one each, but not four or five.

In some cases additional boosters for some diseases are advised for adults at risk of exposure. The vast majority of Americans accepted this as normal practice, at least until the anti-vax hysteria infected the public psyche in the 1990s. That includes some of my relatives, who bought into the paranoid conspiracy theories and notions that vaccines are secret weapons designed by (X) to do (something something something) to the population. This has been inflamed by misuse of the VAERS database by flooding it with flawed data or outright disinformation, misleading some people -- including a distant relative, who believes the COVD vaccine caused a 10,000% spike in cancer. Never mind that this person can't interpret data, flawed or otherwise, and that isn't what the VAERS data shows anyway.

A somewhat less flawed interpretation making the rounds is that the COVD vaccines caused a spike in myocarditis, especially among young men. But the data doesn't support that and so far the instances of myocarditis in that demographic -- already miniscule -- make up a relatively small sampling group, so that it's almost impossible to determine a particular cause for any tiny spike in excess over the usual instances. Rarely, if ever, mentioned is the risky behavior of young men that contributes to a higher risk for myocarditis, ranging from inadequate rest, poor diet, consumption of alcohol and drugs, smoking of all kinds of substances, disregard for personal and public hygiene and communicable disease, combined with physical exertion without regard to need for proper training, rest and recovery.

Even before the COVID anti-vax hysteria I was already seeing misinformed anti-vax posts online regarding flu vaccines. Some folks didn't understand that the flu virus mutates, and the vaccines are usually educated guesswork but almost always safer than getting the flu, particularly for vulnerable people.

As with many viruses that use the respiratory system as the entry point, the SARS-CoV-2 virus has mutated to the point that some of the earliest vaccines and certain anti-viral treatments are no longer effective. But the vaccines are modified, along with anti-virals. So we can expect the boosters to be recommended every six months or so, perhaps more often to the most vulnerable people. Nothing unusual about that.

And as with other viruses, it tended to mutate toward being less deadly but more contagious. As with research into the 2004 SARS outbreak, research now indicates the respiratory system is merely the entry point, but COVID can cause adverse effects throughout the body, including the brain, nervous system and cardiovascular system.
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Old 12-06-22, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by canklecat View Post
Most of us old enough to be participating in the 50+ forum had multiple doses of some vaccines, but probably have forgotten. That wasn't unusual in the 1950s-'60s, and still common for some immunization against certain diseases, notably polio, diphtheria, pertussis and tetanus. If our military duty or jobs take us overseas we'll usually get a number of other vaccinations. By the time I finished boot camp in 1976 I'd had at least a dozen injections, including for plague, since rotation for my rating usually included a stint in Okinawa, Japan, other parts of Asia, Africa, etc.


Earlier this year my apartment was flooded (elderly neighbors upstairs trying to flush disposable diapers and sanitary wipes, which don't disintegrate in water and tend to hang up on the insides of the old cast iron pipes in this building). Unfortunately one of my family photo and keepsake albums got wet, including my childhood vaccination record. The red ink pen used for some entries blurred, but I could see that, before first grade, I'd received four DPT injections and five treatments for polio (at least one of which was the sugar cube, which I remember). I do remember receiving more than one each, but not four or five.


In some cases additional boosters for some diseases are advised for adults at risk of exposure. The vast majority of Americans accepted this as normal practice, at least until the anti-vax hysteria infected the public psyche in the 1990s. That includes some of my relatives, who bought into the paranoid conspiracy theories and notions that vaccines are secret weapons designed by (X) to do (something something something) to the population. This has been inflamed by misuse of the VAERS database by flooding it with flawed data or outright disinformation, misleading some people -- including a distant relative, who believes the COVD vaccine caused a 10,000% spike in cancer. Never mind that this person can't interpret data, flawed or otherwise, and that isn't what the VAERS data shows anyway.


A somewhat less flawed interpretation making the rounds is that the COVD vaccines caused a spike in myocarditis, especially among young men. But the data doesn't support that and so far the instances of myocarditis in that demographic -- already miniscule -- make up a relatively small sampling group, so that it's almost impossible to determine a particular cause for any tiny spike in excess over the usual instances. Rarely, if ever, mentioned is the risky behavior of young men that contributes to a higher risk for myocarditis, ranging from inadequate rest, poor diet, consumption of alcohol and drugs, smoking of all kinds of substances, disregard for personal and public hygiene and communicable disease, combined with physical exertion without regard to need for proper training, rest and recovery.


Even before the COVID anti-vax hysteria I was already seeing misinformed anti-vax posts online regarding flu vaccines. Some folks didn't understand that the flu virus mutates, and the vaccines are usually educated guesswork but almost always safer than getting the flu, particularly for vulnerable people.


As with many viruses that use the respiratory system as the entry point, the SARS-CoV-2 virus has mutated to the point that some of the earliest vaccines and certain anti-viral treatments are no longer effective. But the vaccines are modified, along with anti-virals. So we can expect the boosters to be recommended every six months or so, perhaps more often to the most vulnerable people. Nothing unusual about that.


And as with other viruses, it tended to mutate toward being less deadly but more contagious. As with research into the 2004 SARS outbreak, research now indicates the respiratory system is merely the entry point, but COVID can cause adverse effects throughout the body, including the brain, nervous system and cardiovascular system.

A few comments I have. "particularly for vulnerable people" I agree wholeheartedly on this. And this should have been the rule when COVID mutated. At this point in the game, only vulnerable people should be getting vaccinated and boosted. The only thing they can say now for the vaccination/boosted is that it will reduce the severity.


The anti-virals are very questionable as we have seen many people get a rebound infection that is worst than the original. When I got COVID and I am 70 years old, my doctor said you have a period of time to get the anti-viral but if you feel like you are handling the infection then do not do it. The doctor letting me make the decision again points to not understanding how the anti-virals work in the population.


Finally, my son works for a company that still requires new hires to get vaccinated. But they do not require a booster of any kind. I find this really bizarre and makes no sense to me. The mRNA vaccine being used is the first time this has been used to such a large scale. So, it is very normal for the average person to look at this and say you want me to get boosted every six months and I am under 50 years of age and healthy. No thanks. And then you want my children to be under the same protocol every six months. No thanks.


I wish some of the things described here were done during the pandemic, but that was not the case:


https://gbdeclaration.org/focused-protection/
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Old 12-06-22, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by themp View Post
A few comments I have. "particularly for vulnerable people" I agree wholeheartedly on this. And this should have been the rule when COVID mutated. At this point in the game, only vulnerable people should be getting vaccinated and boosted. The only thing they can say now for the vaccination/boosted is that it will reduce the severity.


The anti-virals are very questionable as we have seen many people get a rebound infection that is worst than the original. When I got COVID and I am 70 years old, my doctor said you have a period of time to get the anti-viral but if you feel like you are handling the infection then do not do it. The doctor letting me make the decision again points to not understanding how the anti-virals work in the population.


Finally, my son works for a company that still requires new hires to get vaccinated. But they do not require a booster of any kind. I find this really bizarre and makes no sense to me. The mRNA vaccine being used is the first time this has been used to such a large scale. So, it is very normal for the average person to look at this and say you want me to get boosted every six months and I am under 50 years of age and healthy. No thanks. And then you want my children to be under the same protocol every six months. No thanks.


I wish some of the things described here were done during the pandemic, but that was not the case:


https://gbdeclaration.org/focused-protection/
FYI: The shingles vaccine in also an mRNA-type vaccine and its been in use longer than the COVID vaccine. I had it earlier this year. Just like the COVID vaccine its two doses, but about two months apart. And just like COVID I had mild reactions to the shots both times that lasted about 24-36 hours. But I consider that a 'win' as my brother had shingles earlier this year and it was six weeks of randomly located itchy rashes and 'stabbing' pain.

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Old 12-06-22, 04:16 PM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by skidder View Post
FYI: The shingles vaccine in also an mRNA-type vaccine and its been in use longer than the COVID vaccine.
Are you sure about that?

I know they are working on one, but as far as I am aware, the SARS-CoV-2 vaccine was the first (and currently only) example of an mRNA vaccine to be commercialized.

Link

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Old 12-06-22, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by themp View Post
A few comments I have. "particularly for vulnerable people" I agree wholeheartedly on this. And this should have been the rule when COVID mutated. At this point in the game, only vulnerable people should be getting vaccinated and boosted. The only thing they can say now for the vaccination/boosted is that it will reduce the severity.


The anti-virals are very questionable as we have seen many people get a rebound infection that is worst than the original. When I got COVID and I am 70 years old, my doctor said you have a period of time to get the anti-viral but if you feel like you are handling the infection then do not do it. The doctor letting me make the decision again points to not understanding how the anti-virals work in the population.


Finally, my son works for a company that still requires new hires to get vaccinated. But they do not require a booster of any kind. I find this really bizarre and makes no sense to me. The mRNA vaccine being used is the first time this has been used to such a large scale. So, it is very normal for the average person to look at this and say you want me to get boosted every six months and I am under 50 years of age and healthy. No thanks. And then you want my children to be under the same protocol every six months. No thanks.


I wish some of the things described here were done during the pandemic, but that was not the case:


https://gbdeclaration.org/focused-protection/
1. If you get the vaccine for the first time today, you will get a mixture of the original and omicron-specific antigen-coding mRNAs. What differs from the "booster" is the dosing.

2. The link to the declaration about focused-protection has the usual false assumption that only elderly people are vulnerable. The suggestion that the US was under "lockdown" is laughable. Some provinces in China are currently under lockdown. There is a huge difference, and calling what we had a lockdown only serves a propaganda role that obfuscates reality.
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Old 12-06-22, 04:32 PM
  #58  
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Allot of people are getting thier flu and covid shots at the same time. I would not recommend it. Even though it does not fit the guidelines as necessary I still recommend separating vacinations by at least two weeks...
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Old 12-06-22, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by zandoval View Post
Allot of people are getting thier flu and covid shots at the same time. I would not recommend it. Even though it does not fit the guidelines as necessary I still recommend separating vacinations by at least two weeks...
Some reason other than your gut feeling? I had my third booster and influenza vaccine at the same time - no problems, but I generally don't get reactions beyond just feeling rotten for a day or two.


Originally Posted by skidder View Post
FYI: The shingles vaccine in also an mRNA-type vaccine
Incorrect, it is a "recombinant" vaccine, and it uses modified DNA, as opposed to COVID vaccine which is "messenger" RNA.
Messenger RNA technology has been in development for decades, but the first mRNA vaccines approved for use in the United States were the COVID-19 vaccines produced by Pfizer and Moderna
​​​​​​​
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Old 12-06-22, 07:10 PM
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mRNA vaccine research isn't new. It's been around for many years. But even after the 2004 SARS outbreak development was stalled because the first SARS outbreak didn't become a full blown pandemic. Most viruses that use the upper respiratory system as an entry point mutate to become less virulent quickly and often fizzle out before becoming an epidemic.

So we got complacent after the 2004 SARS outbreak and didn't push the mRNA vaccine development sooner. If we had pushed for development and appropriate usage years ago, there might have been less uninformed, hysterical resistance and disinformation throughout 2020-2022.

From 1978-'81 as a Navy Corpsman one of my duties included assisting researchers funded by the NIH and other agencies, through a joint Navy/Army project at NNMC Bethesda/Walter Reed, and NRMC San Diego. We Corpsmen and Army Medics just did grunt work, taking lab samples, running routine tests, assisting researchers in whatever way needed, all per very specific protocols. It's a long, painstaking process. It gave me a lifelong respect for real scientific research, and increasing disdain for the ignorance, paranoia and hysteria perpetrated by pop health woo practitioners and even some medical practitioners whose licenses to practice should be rescinded. That includes the GB Declaration participants who are way out of their lane as researchers when they attempt to push public policy. But the entire confused and conflicting official response from the CDC, WHO and other organizations was a gigantic flustercluck and undermined public confidence in research and public health policy for years to come.

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Old 12-06-22, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by DiabloScott View Post
Some reason other than your gut feeling? I had my third booster and influenza vaccine at the same time - no problems...
I agree... And the statistics show and prove that multiple vaccinations, especially boosters, are safe and have minimal side effects. It's just that in my Rural Family Practice setting gut feelings oddly prove correct for patient satisfaction. If I was in the big city seeing 30+ patients a day on 10 minute visits with a 15 day back log it would probably be a little different. I do have my share of anti-vaxers but seeing mostly Ranch people it makes it a little easier. After all, they vaccinate thier Cattle. Pigs, Goats, Chickens, Ducks, Dogs and Cats too...
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Old 12-06-22, 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by canklecat View Post
A somewhat less flawed interpretation making the rounds is that the COVD vaccines caused a spike in myocarditis, especially among young men. But the data doesn't support that and so far the instances of myocarditis in that demographic -- already miniscule -- make up a relatively small sampling group, so that it's almost impossible to determine a particular cause for any tiny spike in excess over the usual instances.
COVID-19 infection is, itself, a high risk factor for myocarditis, and in combination with the other potential adverse complications of COVID-19 infection, makes the mRNA vaccine rather benign in comparison.

“[O]ur results indicate that SARS-CoV-2 infection is itself a very strong risk factor for myocarditis, and it also substantially increases the risk of multiple other serious adverse events”
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2110475
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Old 12-07-22, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by zandoval View Post
I agree... And the statistics show and prove that multiple vaccinations, especially boosters, are safe and have minimal side effects. It's just that in my Rural Family Practice setting gut feelings oddly prove correct for patient satisfaction.
Thanks, that's a reasonable position: if a patient has a history of bad reactions to vaccines, they might well want to spread the malaise out over two cycles rather than get it over with all at once.
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Old 12-07-22, 10:01 PM
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I did delay getting my second booster for 2022, but got my flu and shingles jabs at the same time during my October annual checkup with the VA. I had only mild reactions to those. But I know from previous experience with the COVID jabs (all Moderna so far) that my immune system reaction depends on the dosage. My first Moderna half-dose booster produced very little reaction. My last booster, in June this year, was a full dose and hit a bit harder. After about 8-12 hours I started feeling kinda blah and achy for about 12 hours. Fine afterward.

But my second full Moderna jab back in 2021 kicked like a mule. Took about 12 hours to hit, and I was miserable for about 24 hours. If I didn't already have a background in health care, including assisting researchers, I might have been fooled into believing nonsense like "tHe VAcCinE GAvE mE tEh C0V1D!!!" Same stuff we hear every year about flu shots, etc.

I have had fairly serious side effects almost immediately from other shots when I was a kid. A tetanus booster at age 12 after I was bitten by a chipmunk (little b@s@rd mistook my finger for a peanut) caused the entire right side of my body to swell within a couple of hours. The ER said if it had been on my left side it might have impacted my heart. I haven't had a tetanus shot since, although I'd get one if there was a high-risk event. Odd because I'd had four or five DPT shots as a little kid, no problems.

And when I was 24 I got the gamma globulin shot after I developed hepatitis -- an occupational hazard from working in a hemodialysis clinic. I never got an accidental needle stick, so I'm not sure how it happened. But I developed a serious reaction within 15 minutes of getting the gamma globulin shot, and had to quit my college classes and work for almost six months. Very rare reaction but sometimes happens. Nowadays it's called immune globulin, and supposedly has even lower risk. I'd still take a chance with the immune globulin shot if I was exposed to hepatitis again. Hepatitis is forever. Side effects are usually temporary and not as severe as mine.

But every other reaction I've had to the many jabs I got as a kid, in the military and since have all been normal immune system responses. It might help if medical professionals explained this stuff more bluntly to patients: "This shot might make you feel like warmed over crap for a day or two. Beats the alternative: death or lifelong disability. Your choice."
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Old 12-09-22, 09:10 AM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by Polaris OBark View Post
Are you sure about that?

I know they are working on one, but as far as I am aware, the SARS-CoV-2 vaccine was the first (and currently only) example of an mRNA vaccine to be commercialized.

Link
I tried to find the information forms I got with the vaccine, but I must have tossed them. I remember while reading it while waiting to get the shot it said 'm-RNA' on the form. I asked the pharmacist about it, she said its been out a few years and is proving to be about 90% effective whereas the older 'Zoster' vaccine is about 65% effective. She also mentioned it can have side effects similar to the COVID vaccine so don't be surprised about a mild reaction (I did feel a little sick after both shots). After seeing my brother suffer with shingles for a few weeks I'm glad I got the shots.
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Old 12-09-22, 09:19 AM
  #66  
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I got mine and have been since I was 32 and contracted infectious arthritis associate with influenza.
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Old 12-09-22, 09:40 AM
  #67  
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Originally Posted by skidder View Post
I tried to find the information forms I got with the vaccine, but I must have tossed them. I remember while reading it while waiting to get the shot it said 'm-RNA' on the form. I asked the pharmacist about it, she said its been out a few years and is proving to be about 90% effective whereas the older 'Zoster' vaccine is about 65% effective. She also mentioned it can have side effects similar to the COVID vaccine so don't be surprised about a mild reaction (I did feel a little sick after both shots). After seeing my brother suffer with shingles for a few weeks I'm glad I got the shots.
I just looked it up on the CDC web-page.

It says
Note: Zoster vaccine live (Zostavax) is no longer available for use in the United States, as of November 18, 2020.
I think that is when they started giving the recombinant subunit vaccine. I can't find any mention of the mRNA version, apart from it being in clinical trials. Maybe that is what you got? Anyway, it sounds promising.
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Old 12-09-22, 11:01 AM
  #68  
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Had the flu once, I had the Hong Kong Flu in 1968 but don't believe I have ever been vaccinated against influenza and have no plans to do so.

I did get the Covid mRNA shots and booster but wish I did not. I'll be more careful next time.
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Old 12-09-22, 01:05 PM
  #69  
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Originally Posted by Polaris OBark View Post
I just looked it up on the CDC web-page.

It says

I think that is when they started giving the recombinant subunit vaccine. I can't find any mention of the mRNA version, apart from it being in clinical trials. Maybe that is what you got? Anyway, it sounds promising.
Shingrix is the new recombinant, adjuvented vaccine. For those who don't know, a recombinant vaccine means it contains a viral (or viral-like) component produced in a system (usually bacteria) into which the relevant viral gene(s) have been inserted. The adjuvant is just stuff added to boost the immune response. The old vaccine, Zostavax, contained an attenuated strain of varicella virus, which causes chicken pox and zoster.
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Old 12-09-22, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by smontanaro View Post
You laugh, but I wouldn't be surprised if some entrepreneur starts a business to embed small Tile or Apple chips in people with dementia. Hoo boy...
They already have wanderguard bracelets/ anklets with gps.

Be careful out there with newer medications. Side effects are showing up and not being widely discussed. Video is physicians discussing the spike serum.
https://youtu.be/2SLp6B_kkRI

Last edited by stevel610; 12-09-22 at 01:52 PM.
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