Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Classic & Vintage
Reload this Page >

Who Still Makes Lugged Steel Frames & Forks?

Notices
Classic & Vintage This forum is to discuss the many aspects of classic and vintage bicycles, including musclebikes, lightweights, middleweights, hi-wheelers, bone-shakers, safety bikes and much more.

Who Still Makes Lugged Steel Frames & Forks?

Old 11-28-22, 02:19 PM
  #26  
merziac
Senior Member
 
merziac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: PDX
Posts: 11,745

Bikes: Merz x 5 + Specialized Merz Allez x 2, Strawberry/Newlands/DiNucci/Ti x3, Gordon, Fuso/Moulton x2, Bornstein, Paisley,1958-74 Paramounts x3, 3rensho, 74 Moto TC, 73-78 Raleigh Pro's x5, Marinoni x2, 1960 Cinelli SC, 1980 Bianchi SC, PX-10 X 2

Mentioned: 231 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3663 Post(s)
Liked 4,201 Times in 2,515 Posts
Originally Posted by Paul Waque View Post

Marinoni SL image from www.marinoni.qc


The frame is listed at $1400 CDN for stock sizing.
Such a great deal no matter what and should be at the top of anybody's list.

Too bad they don't have the name recognition they deserve.
merziac is offline  
Old 11-28-22, 02:22 PM
  #27  
non-fixie 
Shifting is fun!
 
non-fixie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: South Holland, NL
Posts: 10,480

Bikes: Yes, please.

Mentioned: 262 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1990 Post(s)
Liked 3,215 Times in 1,353 Posts
I prefer finding used frames. Much cheaper (if you know what to look for) and more environmentally-friendly than having a new one built.

Having said that, the idea of having a frame built to exactly my specifications by a frame builder I would like to help stay in business also appeals to me.

If I were to succumb to that idea, one builder that would come to mind is Faggin in Padova, Italy. I'd probably have to go visit them, and discuss my wishes, but I'm sure Massimo could make me a really nice frame.
__________________
Perhaps.










non-fixie is offline  
Likes For non-fixie:
Old 11-28-22, 03:02 PM
  #28  
merziac
Senior Member
 
merziac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: PDX
Posts: 11,745

Bikes: Merz x 5 + Specialized Merz Allez x 2, Strawberry/Newlands/DiNucci/Ti x3, Gordon, Fuso/Moulton x2, Bornstein, Paisley,1958-74 Paramounts x3, 3rensho, 74 Moto TC, 73-78 Raleigh Pro's x5, Marinoni x2, 1960 Cinelli SC, 1980 Bianchi SC, PX-10 X 2

Mentioned: 231 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3663 Post(s)
Liked 4,201 Times in 2,515 Posts
I get the thinking and there are plenty of frames I would like to have, so much great work being done both by companies and builders.

I strongly encourage anybody that is able to have a custom frame built.

The entire experience was great from start to finish despite a few challenges that are always part of the process.

Working through them was one of the best parts, understanding and getting there was very satisfying.

And the end result is fantastic.
merziac is offline  
Likes For merziac:
Old 11-28-22, 03:29 PM
  #29  
Andy_K 
Senior Member
 
Andy_K's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Beaverton, OR
Posts: 14,167

Bikes: Yes

Mentioned: 486 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2853 Post(s)
Liked 2,650 Times in 1,069 Posts
Originally Posted by Bad Lag View Post
Is it more just practical to buy C&V frames? Practical - cost is low and and benefit is high.
As others have noted, it depends on what you're looking for, but almost the entire reason I'm into C&V is because I think C&V frames are a relatively economical way to get the kind of bike I want. There are a few cutoff points where vintage frames don't play well with new components -- disc brakes, thru axles, threadless stems, electronic cable hiding, and very wide tires are the things that jump to mind for me. Depending on the age and intended use of the vintage frame you're talking about, tire clearance might be as little as 700x25 with no fenders or as much as 700x35 with fenders. There are ways to retrofit disc brakes, but I wouldn't do it. Another factor is that most modern components don't look right on a vintage frame, but that's mostly a matter of relative proportions and tube size, so you'd have that with a newly built lugged steel frame too.

If you get a new steel frame, you're generally talking about $800-$1000 for a production frame without lugs. It might have a nice set of modern braze-ons, and it'll definitely have pristine paint or powder coat. A custom built frame generally gets you into the $2500 and up price range, but adds geometry and fit custom tailored to your size and riding preferences and you can probably add things like lugged construction if you want. I'm generally willing to say that these custom builds are probably worth it if you have the kidney to spare or other sources of funding. So I'm comparing vintage frames to the production steel that's available.

With both vintage frames and modern production steel frames, fit and geometry are a bit of a crap shoot. Many sizes and geometries are available from both sources, and if you know how to look you can generally find what you want either way. IMO, vintage has a big advantage here because you can buy something, try it out, and resell it for very near what you bought it for (maybe even more) if you aren't quite satisfied. That's not true with a new frame. But let's assume that with either new or vintage you are able to find the fit and geometry you want. The advantages of the modern frame then are showroom quality finish and selection of braze-ons. Both of these can be added to vintage frames if you're willing to spend the money.

If you're willing to live with whatever braze-ons you find the frame with and a slightly less than perfect finish, the vintage frame will be much cheaper. Another consideration is that with vintage frames, there is a much higher ceiling available for quality. A sub-$1000 production frame is generally going to be 4130 steel and have no fancy craftsman features. A lot of vintage frames are available dirt cheap with something like Reynolds 531, Columbus SL, or Tange #1 tubing, and for a bit more money you can start getting things like fancy lugs, pantographs, and chrome bits.

Let me give a couple of examples to reason through the economics of this. I'm not particularly frugal, so I think this is a reasonable baseline. With time and patience, you could do much better.

Example #1: 1972 Motobecane Grand Record

I got this frame in very rough shape and paid an accordingly low price -- $30.



This frame has double-butted Reynolds 531 main tubes, forged Campagnolo dropouts, and Nervex professional lugs. The paint was shot and it had no braze-ons. I spent $125 to have water bottle bosses, downtube shifter bosses, and a few cable guides brazed on. I spent another $375 having it powder coated and $70 for decals. So for an investment of $600 I had this:



Apart from the French threading (which has a certain charm), I'd put that up against any production steel frame you can get. I spent almost another $1000 on the build (did I mention I'm not frugal), so the complete bike ended up putting me at $1560. That's definitely getting into the ballpark of what you'd pay for a nice, complete new bike. The advantage of my vintage build is that I got exactly what I wanted for every bit.



For example #2, I want to explore what you can do if you don't need to refinish the frame. This is a 1996 Masciaghi-built Fausto Coppi Reparto Corse with Columbus Genius tubing, lots of chrome and pantographing. It fits 700x28 tires but has relatively racy geometry. The paint has a few chips, but it's generally nice. I got this frame and fork for $256, which is a great bargain but not outside the realm of what is commonly available in the C&V world. Obviously, you won't find a new steel frame anywhere near this price.



All built with a 3x10 Shimano 105 drivetrain and nice wheels, it set me back $1205. You can't beat that in the new market.




Example #3 is an illustration of the upper end of what you can do with vintage frames. This is my 1975 Stella SX-76. I got the frame, fork, and headset for about $150. Though it may not look like it here, the paint was pretty much shot, but the chrome was very good. The tubing is a rather unusual metric-sized Columbus set that I think is basically SL in metric sizes. The derailleur hanger had been cut off, but Gugie repaired that before selling me the frame.



I got Gugie to braze-on water bottle bosses, which I think was part of swap that was too complicated to fit in my spreadsheet. Let's figure $90 for two pairs. Everything else I left clamp-on because I wanted to retain the spirit of the vintage frame. Instead of powder-coat, I wanted nice paint for this one. I sent it to Jeffrey Bock, who did the paint along with decals, lug lining, and a minor repair to the seat cluster for $995. That may or may not have included round-trip shipping. I didn't put that in my notes. Anyway, for $1235, I had this:



Is that a good deal compared to a new frame? I really think it is. Apart from custom sizing and geometry, this is like what I'd expect from a custom build at more than twice the cost. I splurged for NOS Campy 3x10 drivetrain components, new Campy Centaur brakes (which I converted to nutted), and good wheels with what you can see are my favorite rims. All in, I've got just over $2000 invested in this. You can definitely get new bikes cheaper than that, but can you get a new bike of this quality?



So that's my case for not buying new steel frames.
__________________
My Bikes
Andy_K is offline  
Old 11-28-22, 03:33 PM
  #30  
Andy_K 
Senior Member
 
Andy_K's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Beaverton, OR
Posts: 14,167

Bikes: Yes

Mentioned: 486 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2853 Post(s)
Liked 2,650 Times in 1,069 Posts
Originally Posted by Erzulis Boat View Post
Why vertical? Classic steel lugged bikes had horizontal dropouts, and the hubs of yesteryear typically had serrated steel contact surfaces because you needed it so that the wheel wouldn't "slip" forward. The system needed to be tight, so everything was beefy. Put some modern wheels in a classic horizontal dropout, and see just how quickly you can pull the wheel forward when you give it the gas.
That definitely happens, and I've got rub marks on the inside of the chainstays on many of my bikes to prove it. It happens much less often with internally-cammed skewers like you get from Shimano or Campagnolo. For the cost, Shimano skewers are definitely worth using for this reason.
__________________
My Bikes
Andy_K is offline  
Likes For Andy_K:
Old 11-28-22, 03:36 PM
  #31  
squirtdad
Senior Member
 
squirtdad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: San Jose (Willow Glen) Ca
Posts: 8,913

Bikes: 85 team Miyata (modern 5800 105) , '84 Team Miyata,(dura ace old school) 80?? SR Semi-Pro 600 Arabesque

Mentioned: 94 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1884 Post(s)
Liked 1,721 Times in 1,030 Posts
Rivendell is a clear option

a de rosa, but not cheap https://derosanorthamerica.com/produ...-azzurro-cromo

custom seems expensive but you can some times find local/smaller builders that are less expensive and even a known builder custom frame is not more if not less than an equal carbon frameset

I am in the custom process and it has been a really good, interesting experience....
__________________
Life is too short not to ride the best bike you have, as much as you can
(looking for Torpado Super light frame/fork or whole biked 57,58)


squirtdad is offline  
Likes For squirtdad:
Old 11-28-22, 03:45 PM
  #32  
Bad Lag
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: So Cal, for now
Posts: 1,961

Bikes: 1975 Bob Jackson - Nuovo Record, Brooks Pro, Clips & Straps

Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 832 Post(s)
Liked 449 Times in 267 Posts
Whether new or C&V, the same key is mentioned by all - the fit (the frame dimensions).

Is there an online calculator anywhere so I can evaluate what those dimensions should be? That would be especially important if I were looking for an existing or new-production frame where I do not get to specify the dimensions but get to pick the best match.

It will also be interesting to see how well my current bike conforms to what the dimensions "should be".
Bad Lag is offline  
Old 11-28-22, 03:54 PM
  #33  
Bad Lag
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: So Cal, for now
Posts: 1,961

Bikes: 1975 Bob Jackson - Nuovo Record, Brooks Pro, Clips & Straps

Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 832 Post(s)
Liked 449 Times in 267 Posts
Thanks, Andy K, good post.


Things I would want in a frame -

Curved fork blades
Horizontal top tube
Threaded headset (I think)
Rim brake calipers
C&V-type wheels (36 SS DB spokes, MA2 type rims)
Down tube friction shifters
2X5 or 3X5 gearing (maybe Ultra-6 in the rear) <-- 120 mm rear spacing implied

That last one is not sacrosanct. If I were to go more modern anywhere, it would be in the gearing. I think the overarching point there is an internally-geared hub is not what I am after and I'd be more than happy with a 2X5.
Bad Lag is offline  
Old 11-28-22, 03:54 PM
  #34  
merziac
Senior Member
 
merziac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: PDX
Posts: 11,745

Bikes: Merz x 5 + Specialized Merz Allez x 2, Strawberry/Newlands/DiNucci/Ti x3, Gordon, Fuso/Moulton x2, Bornstein, Paisley,1958-74 Paramounts x3, 3rensho, 74 Moto TC, 73-78 Raleigh Pro's x5, Marinoni x2, 1960 Cinelli SC, 1980 Bianchi SC, PX-10 X 2

Mentioned: 231 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3663 Post(s)
Liked 4,201 Times in 2,515 Posts
Originally Posted by squirtdad View Post
Rivendell is a clear option

a de rosa, but not cheap https://derosanorthamerica.com/produ...-azzurro-cromo

custom seems expensive but you can some times find local/smaller builders that are less expensive and even a known builder custom frame is not more if not less than an equal carbon frameset

I am in the custom process and it has been a really good, interesting experience....
This kind of discussion is exactly what can define the experience, interesting, challenging, eye opening, eye watering, good, satisfying, fantastic et all.
merziac is offline  
Old 11-28-22, 03:59 PM
  #35  
merziac
Senior Member
 
merziac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: PDX
Posts: 11,745

Bikes: Merz x 5 + Specialized Merz Allez x 2, Strawberry/Newlands/DiNucci/Ti x3, Gordon, Fuso/Moulton x2, Bornstein, Paisley,1958-74 Paramounts x3, 3rensho, 74 Moto TC, 73-78 Raleigh Pro's x5, Marinoni x2, 1960 Cinelli SC, 1980 Bianchi SC, PX-10 X 2

Mentioned: 231 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3663 Post(s)
Liked 4,201 Times in 2,515 Posts


Originally Posted by Bad Lag View Post
Thanks, Andy K, good post.
Threaded headset (I think)
There is no "I think", only do.

merziac is offline  
Old 11-28-22, 04:04 PM
  #36  
nlerner
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 16,217
Mentioned: 432 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3266 Post(s)
Liked 4,781 Times in 1,991 Posts
Originally Posted by Bad Lag View Post
Thanks, Andy K, good post.


Things I would want in a frame -

Curved fork blades
Horizontal top tube
Threaded headset (I think)
Rim brake calipers
C&V-type wheels (36 SS DB spokes, MA2 type rims)
Down tube friction shifters
2X5 or 3X5 gearing (maybe Ultra-6 in the rear) <-- 120 mm rear spacing implied

That last one is not sacrosanct. If I were to go more modern anywhere, it would be in the gearing. I think the overarching point there is an internally-geared hub is not what I am after and I'd be more than happy with a 2X5.
The link to Mercian I provided early in this thread would likely give you all of that (though the 120mm rear spacing might not be their standard). However, ff you're adding lugs and steel to that list, I'm not at all sure why you're even looking at modern frames. Is there something you're thinking you'd get with modern that you wouldn't get with vintage?
nlerner is offline  
Likes For nlerner:
Old 11-28-22, 04:17 PM
  #37  
TugaDude
Senior Member
 
TugaDude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,226
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 500 Post(s)
Liked 509 Times in 366 Posts
Originally Posted by Andy_K View Post
As others have noted, it depends on what you're looking for, but almost the entire reason I'm into C&V is because I think C&V frames are a relatively economical way to get the kind of bike I want. There are a few cutoff points where vintage frames don't play well with new components -- disc brakes, thru axles, threadless stems, electronic cable hiding, and very wide tires are the things that jump to mind for me. Depending on the age and intended use of the vintage frame you're talking about, tire clearance might be as little as 700x25 with no fenders or as much as 700x35 with fenders. There are ways to retrofit disc brakes, but I wouldn't do it. Another factor is that most modern components don't look right on a vintage frame, but that's mostly a matter of relative proportions and tube size, so you'd have that with a newly built lugged steel frame too.

If you get a new steel frame, you're generally talking about $800-$1000 for a production frame without lugs. It might have a nice set of modern braze-ons, and it'll definitely have pristine paint or powder coat. A custom built frame generally gets you into the $2500 and up price range, but adds geometry and fit custom tailored to your size and riding preferences and you can probably add things like lugged construction if you want. I'm generally willing to say that these custom builds are probably worth it if you have the kidney to spare or other sources of funding. So I'm comparing vintage frames to the production steel that's available.

With both vintage frames and modern production steel frames, fit and geometry are a bit of a crap shoot. Many sizes and geometries are available from both sources, and if you know how to look you can generally find what you want either way. IMO, vintage has a big advantage here because you can buy something, try it out, and resell it for very near what you bought it for (maybe even more) if you aren't quite satisfied. That's not true with a new frame. But let's assume that with either new or vintage you are able to find the fit and geometry you want. The advantages of the modern frame then are showroom quality finish and selection of braze-ons. Both of these can be added to vintage frames if you're willing to spend the money.

If you're willing to live with whatever braze-ons you find the frame with and a slightly less than perfect finish, the vintage frame will be much cheaper. Another consideration is that with vintage frames, there is a much higher ceiling available for quality. A sub-$1000 production frame is generally going to be 4130 steel and have no fancy craftsman features. A lot of vintage frames are available dirt cheap with something like Reynolds 531, Columbus SL, or Tange #1 tubing, and for a bit more money you can start getting things like fancy lugs, pantographs, and chrome bits.

Let me give a couple of examples to reason through the economics of this. I'm not particularly frugal, so I think this is a reasonable baseline. With time and patience, you could do much better.

Example #1: 1972 Motobecane Grand Record

I got this frame in very rough shape and paid an accordingly low price -- $30.



This frame has double-butted Reynolds 531 main tubes, forged Campagnolo dropouts, and Nervex professional lugs. The paint was shot and it had no braze-ons. I spent $125 to have water bottle bosses, downtube shifter bosses, and a few cable guides brazed on. I spent another $375 having it powder coated and $70 for decals. So for an investment of $600 I had this:



Apart from the French threading (which has a certain charm), I'd put that up against any production steel frame you can get. I spent almost another $1000 on the build (did I mention I'm not frugal), so the complete bike ended up putting me at $1560. That's definitely getting into the ballpark of what you'd pay for a nice, complete new bike. The advantage of my vintage build is that I got exactly what I wanted for every bit.



For example #2, I want to explore what you can do if you don't need to refinish the frame. This is a 1996 Masciaghi-built Fausto Coppi Reparto Corse with Columbus Genius tubing, lots of chrome and pantographing. It fits 700x28 tires but has relatively racy geometry. The paint has a few chips, but it's generally nice. I got this frame and fork for $256, which is a great bargain but not outside the realm of what is commonly available in the C&V world. Obviously, you won't find a new steel frame anywhere near this price.



All built with a 3x10 Shimano 105 drivetrain and nice wheels, it set me back $1205. You can't beat that in the new market.




Example #3 is an illustration of the upper end of what you can do with vintage frames. This is my 1975 Stella SX-76. I got the frame, fork, and headset for about $150. Though it may not look like it here, the paint was pretty much shot, but the chrome was very good. The tubing is a rather unusual metric-sized Columbus set that I think is basically SL in metric sizes. The derailleur hanger had been cut off, but Gugie repaired that before selling me the frame.



I got Gugie to braze-on water bottle bosses, which I think was part of swap that was too complicated to fit in my spreadsheet. Let's figure $90 for two pairs. Everything else I left clamp-on because I wanted to retain the spirit of the vintage frame. Instead of powder-coat, I wanted nice paint for this one. I sent it to Jeffrey Bock, who did the paint along with decals, lug lining, and a minor repair to the seat cluster for $995. That may or may not have included round-trip shipping. I didn't put that in my notes. Anyway, for $1235, I had this:



Is that a good deal compared to a new frame? I really think it is. Apart from custom sizing and geometry, this is like what I'd expect from a custom build at more than twice the cost. I splurged for NOS Campy 3x10 drivetrain components, new Campy Centaur brakes (which I converted to nutted), and good wheels with what you can see are my favorite rims. All in, I've got just over $2000 invested in this. You can definitely get new bikes cheaper than that, but can you get a new bike of this quality?



So that's my case for not buying new steel frames.
You make some great arguments and better yet, back them up with actual examples. I agree with you about the Motobecane. It probably rides as well or better than many "modern" steel framed bikes. I own two, a Grand Jubilee and a Grand Record and both are super smooth on the road.

The others I have no experience with but I'm sure they are wonderful too.
TugaDude is offline  
Likes For TugaDude:
Old 11-28-22, 05:02 PM
  #38  
merziac
Senior Member
 
merziac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: PDX
Posts: 11,745

Bikes: Merz x 5 + Specialized Merz Allez x 2, Strawberry/Newlands/DiNucci/Ti x3, Gordon, Fuso/Moulton x2, Bornstein, Paisley,1958-74 Paramounts x3, 3rensho, 74 Moto TC, 73-78 Raleigh Pro's x5, Marinoni x2, 1960 Cinelli SC, 1980 Bianchi SC, PX-10 X 2

Mentioned: 231 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3663 Post(s)
Liked 4,201 Times in 2,515 Posts
Originally Posted by Bad Lag View Post
Whether new or C&V, the same key is mentioned by all - the fit (the frame dimensions).

Is there an online calculator anywhere so I can evaluate what those dimensions should be? That would be especially important if I were looking for an existing or new-production frame where I do not get to specify the dimensions but get to pick the best match.

It will also be interesting to see how well my current bike conforms to what the dimensions "should be".
Fit calculators follow a given "fit" that often harpoons one fit or another and don't account for some out of the norm traits that most of us have and can be the lynch pin of the equation that a builder can mitigate and build in.

I would encourage you to get a fitting from a custom builder, explain your ask and be prepared to spend $2-300 as it can be invaluable for knowing what you need to know to compromise if need be.

Many build it into the frame cost and it may lead to more consideration of a custom if it reveals a critical angle or measurement that can't be found well enough in production.
merziac is offline  
Old 11-28-22, 05:37 PM
  #39  
Andy_K 
Senior Member
 
Andy_K's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Beaverton, OR
Posts: 14,167

Bikes: Yes

Mentioned: 486 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2853 Post(s)
Liked 2,650 Times in 1,069 Posts
Originally Posted by Bad Lag View Post
It will also be interesting to see how well my current bike conforms to what the dimensions "should be".
For anyone other than competitive athletes, the goals of a proper bike fit are comfort and avoiding/addressing physical problems. If your current bikes are comfortable and you aren't experiencing any physical problems then in a very real sense, those are what the dimensions "should be."

I went to my LBS about a decade ago for a "pro" bike fit. They did a lot of measurements, watched me pedal my bike on a trainer, made some adjustments, watched some more, etc. I ended up with a fit that felt awkward at first but has turned out to be great. I still use that fitting as the baseline for setting up all my bikes. The outcome of a fit like this is a relative position of saddle, pedals, and handlebars. That fit can be replicated with a wide range of bike sizes. You may also have certain aesthetic considerations, such as not wanting a very tall stem of a lot of exposed seatpost. I think the fitting is worth the cost, but if you're happy with your bikes, there's really no reason to question that.

Originally Posted by Bad Lag View Post
Things I would want in a frame -

Curved fork blades
Horizontal top tube
Threaded headset (I think)
Rim brake calipers
C&V-type wheels (36 SS DB spokes, MA2 type rims)
Down tube friction shifters
2X5 or 3X5 gearing (maybe Ultra-6 in the rear) <-- 120 mm rear spacing implied
You can get new frames with all of that, but all of that is what vintage frames were designed for. What are your reasons for considering a new frame? Just wondering if the new stuff rides better?
__________________
My Bikes
Andy_K is offline  
Likes For Andy_K:
Old 11-28-22, 05:48 PM
  #40  
vespasianus
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: In the south but from North
Posts: 620

Bikes: Turner 5-Spot Burner converted; IBIS Ripley, Specialized Crave, Tommasini Sintesi, Cinelli Superstar, Tommasini X-Fire Gravel

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 356 Post(s)
Liked 324 Times in 182 Posts
Originally Posted by Bad Lag View Post
Title says it all but maybe I should add, that are top quality and don't cost a kidney.

What is the tubing set to buy; is it still 531 or has it morphed to 753 or...?

Is it more just practical to buy C&V frames? Practical - cost is low and and benefit is high.

This is just my idle curiosity but if you have links to web pages, those would be appreciated.
You got to set your price point. You can usually find some good deals on Tommasini and Ciocc on eBay but you can also get them new for much less than a kidney (a good functioning kidney).

ps. That merlin looks like a good buy.
vespasianus is offline  
Old 11-28-22, 07:25 PM
  #41  
squirtdad
Senior Member
 
squirtdad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: San Jose (Willow Glen) Ca
Posts: 8,913

Bikes: 85 team Miyata (modern 5800 105) , '84 Team Miyata,(dura ace old school) 80?? SR Semi-Pro 600 Arabesque

Mentioned: 94 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1884 Post(s)
Liked 1,721 Times in 1,030 Posts
Originally Posted by Bad Lag View Post
Thanks, Andy K, good post.


Things I would want in a frame -

Curved fork blades
Horizontal top tube
Threaded headset (I think)
Rim brake calipers
C&V-type wheels (36 SS DB spokes, MA2 type rims)
Down tube friction shifters
2X5 or 3X5 gearing (maybe Ultra-6 in the rear) <-- 120 mm rear spacing implied

That last one is not sacrosanct. If I were to go more modern anywhere, it would be in the gearing. I think the overarching point there is an internally-geared hub is not what I am after and I'd be more than happy with a 2X5.
IMHO you would be ahead with at 130mm you could then go with a nice dura ace 7 speed or 8 speeds set up or ever going modern 50/34 11 speed (which I am partial to)

all of the above can be easily done with a custom build. including forks designed for you

velo orange has some great long reach brakes

what I am in process one has room for 32 mm tires, 28 with fenders, lugged, rim brakes, build to me fork, threaded headset

I am building a set of 32 hole tubular on ambrosio nemisis rims (pretty classic) and also have a set of 32 hole H+Son Archetuype rims

rest of details will wait for when I have it, and it's build and full review and story
__________________
Life is too short not to ride the best bike you have, as much as you can
(looking for Torpado Super light frame/fork or whole biked 57,58)


squirtdad is offline  
Old 11-28-22, 09:45 PM
  #42  
mstateglfr 
Sunshine
 
mstateglfr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Des Moines, IA
Posts: 15,100

Bikes: '18 class built steel roadbike, '19 Fairlight Secan, '88 Schwinn Premis , Black Mountain Cycles Monstercross V4, '89 Novara Trionfo

Mentioned: 120 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9425 Post(s)
Liked 5,785 Times in 3,347 Posts
Originally Posted by Erzulis Boat View Post
Colnago still makes them. That being said, anything from the 1990's with vertical rear dropouts (so you can use modern lightweight wheels) is a great choice.

Why vertical? Classic steel lugged bikes had horizontal dropouts, and the hubs of yesteryear typically had serrated steel contact surfaces because you needed it so that the wheel wouldn't "slip" forward. The system needed to be tight, so everything was beefy. Put some modern wheels in a classic horizontal dropout, and see just how quickly you can pull the wheel forward when you give it the gas.

Once bikes started getting vertical dropouts, the hubs could also change, and no longer required the brute force to stay in place. The hubs then started using lightweight components/designs. The vertical dropout is where I draw the line between classic and modern when it comes to lugged steel bikes. Not much else has changed.
Uh what? Lightweight wheels can absolutely go on a bike with horizontal dropouts.
Also, an Ultegra level hub from 40 years ago by varying brands was lightweight. I don't consider hubs from back then to be 'beefy' by default or necessity.

I have put modern lightweight wheelsets that weigh 1450g to 1700g on multiple road bikes with horizontal drououts. Miyata, Raleigh, Univega, Peugeot, Schwinn, Nishiki, and more with horizontal dropouts have all been just fine with modern lightweight wheels.
Also, bikes from the 70s and 80s sometimes had vertical dropouts, just keep that in mind since it also doesn't line up with your narrative.

It isn't much of a secret- just use internal cam QRs. That's it. The wheels don't move. I am 6'5 and 215# so I will never be mistaken for a featherweight either, to be clear.
Heck, I use internal cam QRs on my bikes with vertical dropouts too because there is no downside.
mstateglfr is offline  
Old 11-28-22, 10:44 PM
  #43  
Bad Lag
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: So Cal, for now
Posts: 1,961

Bikes: 1975 Bob Jackson - Nuovo Record, Brooks Pro, Clips & Straps

Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 832 Post(s)
Liked 449 Times in 267 Posts
Originally Posted by nlerner View Post
Is there something you're thinking you'd get with modern that you wouldn't get with vintage?
No, the more I think about it the better a vintage frame/bike stacks up against a new build.

Last edited by Bad Lag; 11-28-22 at 10:48 PM.
Bad Lag is offline  
Old 11-28-22, 11:22 PM
  #44  
52telecaster
ambulatory senior
 
52telecaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Peoria Il
Posts: 5,246

Bikes: Bob Jackson World Tour, Falcon and lots of other bikes.

Mentioned: 66 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1602 Post(s)
Liked 2,176 Times in 1,073 Posts
Andy, that moto is the bomb!
52telecaster is offline  
Likes For 52telecaster:
Old 11-28-22, 11:32 PM
  #45  
Atlas Shrugged
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 982
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 662 Post(s)
Liked 777 Times in 377 Posts
Originally Posted by Bad Lag View Post
No, the more I think about it the better a vintage frame/bike stacks up against a new build.
Even with the slow set-up, was there ever a doubt?
Atlas Shrugged is offline  
Old 11-29-22, 03:54 AM
  #46  
georges1
Steel is real
 
georges1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 436

Bikes: 1992 Giant Tourer,1992 Merida Albon, 1996 Scapin, 1997 Kona Kilaueua, 1993 Peugeot Prestige, 1991 Raleigh Team Z,1998 Jamis Dragon(to be built),1992CTWallis(to be built)

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 70 Post(s)
Liked 139 Times in 86 Posts
Originally Posted by Andy_K View Post
As others have noted, it depends on what you're looking for, but almost the entire reason I'm into C&V is because I think C&V frames are a relatively economical way to get the kind of bike I want. There are a few cutoff points where vintage frames don't play well with new components -- disc brakes, thru axles, threadless stems, electronic cable hiding, and very wide tires are the things that jump to mind for me. Depending on the age and intended use of the vintage frame you're talking about, tire clearance might be as little as 700x25 with no fenders or as much as 700x35 with fenders. There are ways to retrofit disc brakes, but I wouldn't do it. Another factor is that most modern components don't look right on a vintage frame, but that's mostly a matter of relative proportions and tube size, so you'd have that with a newly built lugged steel frame too.

If you get a new steel frame, you're generally talking about $800-$1000 for a production frame without lugs. It might have a nice set of modern braze-ons, and it'll definitely have pristine paint or powder coat. A custom built frame generally gets you into the $2500 and up price range, but adds geometry and fit custom tailored to your size and riding preferences and you can probably add things like lugged construction if you want. I'm generally willing to say that these custom builds are probably worth it if you have the kidney to spare or other sources of funding. So I'm comparing vintage frames to the production steel that's available.

With both vintage frames and modern production steel frames, fit and geometry are a bit of a crap shoot. Many sizes and geometries are available from both sources, and if you know how to look you can generally find what you want either way. IMO, vintage has a big advantage here because you can buy something, try it out, and resell it for very near what you bought it for (maybe even more) if you aren't quite satisfied. That's not true with a new frame. But let's assume that with either new or vintage you are able to find the fit and geometry you want. The advantages of the modern frame then are showroom quality finish and selection of braze-ons. Both of these can be added to vintage frames if you're willing to spend the money.

If you're willing to live with whatever braze-ons you find the frame with and a slightly less than perfect finish, the vintage frame will be much cheaper. Another consideration is that with vintage frames, there is a much higher ceiling available for quality. A sub-$1000 production frame is generally going to be 4130 steel and have no fancy craftsman features. A lot of vintage frames are available dirt cheap with something like Reynolds 531, Columbus SL, or Tange #1 tubing, and for a bit more money you can start getting things like fancy lugs, pantographs, and chrome bits.

Let me give a couple of examples to reason through the economics of this. I'm not particularly frugal, so I think this is a reasonable baseline. With time and patience, you could do much better.

Example #1: 1972 Motobecane Grand Record

I got this frame in very rough shape and paid an accordingly low price -- $30.



This frame has double-butted Reynolds 531 main tubes, forged Campagnolo dropouts, and Nervex professional lugs. The paint was shot and it had no braze-ons. I spent $125 to have water bottle bosses, downtube shifter bosses, and a few cable guides brazed on. I spent another $375 having it powder coated and $70 for decals. So for an investment of $600 I had this:



Apart from the French threading (which has a certain charm), I'd put that up against any production steel frame you can get. I spent almost another $1000 on the build (did I mention I'm not frugal), so the complete bike ended up putting me at $1560. That's definitely getting into the ballpark of what you'd pay for a nice, complete new bike. The advantage of my vintage build is that I got exactly what I wanted for every bit.



For example #2, I want to explore what you can do if you don't need to refinish the frame. This is a 1996 Masciaghi-built Fausto Coppi Reparto Corse with Columbus Genius tubing, lots of chrome and pantographing. It fits 700x28 tires but has relatively racy geometry. The paint has a few chips, but it's generally nice. I got this frame and fork for $256, which is a great bargain but not outside the realm of what is commonly available in the C&V world. Obviously, you won't find a new steel frame anywhere near this price.



All built with a 3x10 Shimano 105 drivetrain and nice wheels, it set me back $1205. You can't beat that in the new market.




Example #3 is an illustration of the upper end of what you can do with vintage frames. This is my 1975 Stella SX-76. I got the frame, fork, and headset for about $150. Though it may not look like it here, the paint was pretty much shot, but the chrome was very good. The tubing is a rather unusual metric-sized Columbus set that I think is basically SL in metric sizes. The derailleur hanger had been cut off, but Gugie repaired that before selling me the frame.



I got Gugie to braze-on water bottle bosses, which I think was part of swap that was too complicated to fit in my spreadsheet. Let's figure $90 for two pairs. Everything else I left clamp-on because I wanted to retain the spirit of the vintage frame. Instead of powder-coat, I wanted nice paint for this one. I sent it to Jeffrey Bock, who did the paint along with decals, lug lining, and a minor repair to the seat cluster for $995. That may or may not have included round-trip shipping. I didn't put that in my notes. Anyway, for $1235, I had this:



Is that a good deal compared to a new frame? I really think it is. Apart from custom sizing and geometry, this is like what I'd expect from a custom build at more than twice the cost. I splurged for NOS Campy 3x10 drivetrain components, new Campy Centaur brakes (which I converted to nutted), and good wheels with what you can see are my favorite rims. All in, I've got just over $2000 invested in this. You can definitely get new bikes cheaper than that, but can you get a new bike of this quality?



So that's my case for not buying new steel frames.
Fantastic collection of steel bikes and nicely equipped. I also tend to buy used frames and then have them equipped,at the end,it is much cheaper than buying a new bike
georges1 is offline  
Likes For georges1:
Old 11-29-22, 07:51 AM
  #47  
jdawginsc 
Edumacator
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Goose Creek, SC
Posts: 5,379

Bikes: '87 Crestdale, '87 Basso Gap, '92 Rossin Performance EL-OS, 1990 VanTuyl, 1980s Losa, 1985 Trek 670, 1982 AD SLE, 1987 PX10, etc...

Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1713 Post(s)
Liked 1,785 Times in 1,199 Posts
Originally Posted by Bad Lag View Post
No, the more I think about it the better a vintage frame/bike stacks up against a new build.
https://www.fagginbikes.com/works/doge/
jdawginsc is online now  
Likes For jdawginsc:
Old 11-29-22, 09:19 AM
  #48  
squirtdad
Senior Member
 
squirtdad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: San Jose (Willow Glen) Ca
Posts: 8,913

Bikes: 85 team Miyata (modern 5800 105) , '84 Team Miyata,(dura ace old school) 80?? SR Semi-Pro 600 Arabesque

Mentioned: 94 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1884 Post(s)
Liked 1,721 Times in 1,030 Posts
Originally Posted by jdawginsc View Post
that is very pretty
__________________
Life is too short not to ride the best bike you have, as much as you can
(looking for Torpado Super light frame/fork or whole biked 57,58)


squirtdad is offline  
Old 11-29-22, 09:46 AM
  #49  
mstateglfr 
Sunshine
 
mstateglfr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Des Moines, IA
Posts: 15,100

Bikes: '18 class built steel roadbike, '19 Fairlight Secan, '88 Schwinn Premis , Black Mountain Cycles Monstercross V4, '89 Novara Trionfo

Mentioned: 120 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9425 Post(s)
Liked 5,785 Times in 3,347 Posts
Originally Posted by Bad Lag View Post
No, the more I think about it the better a vintage frame/bike stacks up against a new build.
If you want a more modern cockpit, you could use an innicycle headset to seamlessly incorporate a threadless stem and 31.8mm bars to a fork that is threaded.

The only downsides to a vintage frame/bike are...
- what happens to be available or not at a given moment can limit your options.
- frame sizing on older lugged road bikes is much more limiting than moden options so if you have a funky fit like long legs, short legs, overall just tall, overall just short- you may struggle to find a frame that works well for your fit.

In terms of overall cost though? Yeah an older frame is for sure more cost effective.
mstateglfr is offline  
Old 11-29-22, 11:48 AM
  #50  
jdawginsc 
Edumacator
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Goose Creek, SC
Posts: 5,379

Bikes: '87 Crestdale, '87 Basso Gap, '92 Rossin Performance EL-OS, 1990 VanTuyl, 1980s Losa, 1985 Trek 670, 1982 AD SLE, 1987 PX10, etc...

Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1713 Post(s)
Liked 1,785 Times in 1,199 Posts
Originally Posted by squirtdad View Post
that is very pretty
Also very cool
https://www.fagginbikes.com/works/settantesimo/

Sort of an oddity
https://www.fagginbikes.com/works/storia/
__________________
1987 Crest Cannondale, 1987 Basso Gap, 1992 Rossin Performance EL, 1990ish Van Tuyl, 1980s Vanni Losa Cassani thingy, 1985 Trek 670, 1982 AD SLE, 2003 Pinarello Surprise, 1990ish MBK Atlantique, 1987 Peugeot Competition, 1987 Nishiki Tri-A, 1981? Faggin, 1996ish Cannondale M500, 1984 Mercian, 1982 AD SuperLeicht, 1985 Massi (model unknown), 1988 Daccordi Griffe (most not finished of course)...need to not buy any more.





jdawginsc is online now  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2023 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.