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Keto and cycling

Old 08-04-22, 02:15 PM
  #126  
ZHVelo
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Originally Posted by Bearhawker View Post
1) There are three types of foods (energy sources): fat, protein & carbs. Insulin response to each: fat, essentially none; protein, very little; carbs, the most significant. Sugar (glucose) is the most biologically accessible carb (carbs being chains of sugars) so the insulin response is the highest/most significant. The chronic spiking of insulin is the cause of T2D... where the insulin receptors get overloaded and no longer have the sensitivity required for the "normal" function. Glucose & fructose are the two primary forms of sugar ("table sugar" is sucrose - a mix of the two). Fructose is processed exclusively by the liver so it doesn't produce the same insulin response which has caused some to believe that it is "safer" - and my well be but it is the number 1 cause of non-alcoholic fatty liver disease. The excess fructose processed by the liver becomes visceral fat as opposed to the subcutaneous fat under the skin from other stored energy. Fructose causes the liver to shut down all its other function while it processes fructose - the same way it does for alcohol, and fructose is second only to alcohol in this regard.

Since T2D is 100% voluntary I am doing everything I can to avoid it. This means I generally do not eat any carbs - especially sugars! - and this *generally* includes fruit. I do sometimes eat small amounts of some berries and grapefruit. You cannot get T2D without chronic spiking of insulin and there are many cases where T2D has been reversed (or put into remission which is effectively the same thing) by stopping the consumption of carbs.

2) benefits. Apart from avoiding T2D and all it's related metabolic syndrome issues like coronary & vision issues there is some research showing that the brain has its own sugar/insulin regulatory system and that some forms of dementia and Alzheimers are in fact Diabetes of the brain. This may not be the case but why would I take any chances? I've got senior family members that have died from these issues and MIL that is currently having a bad time with Alzhiemers. No thanks! If I can avoid it long term by changing my diet I will. If not, then the other immediate benefits - for me - are more than worth it.

I'm essentially *never* hungry. To the point of total fatigue I have an endless energy supply as I burn fat as my primary fuel source. I can - and have - gone days without food while doing fairly strenuous activity.

I've never once "bonked" since I stopped eating carbs. That alone is pure awesome. Case in point I've made here before: I rode around the Cabot Trail on an organized ride: everyone else ate a hug breakfast and stuffed their pockets with gels and stuff to make it to the 1st rest stop where they refilled their snack supplies to make it to lunch, and did teh same thing all day long. Me? I rode all three days fasted. I only ate a roughly 1000 calorie supper each night and had a few tea with HWC. It wasn't a race (I'm not a competitive athlete) but I do ride a 50 pound fatbike so that's not exactly easy

I will be riding my fatbike in a local GranFondo later this month. All three days I will be riding fasted - nothing but electrolytes in my water until after the rides. I will only stop at the "nutrition" stops to refill my water bottles.

I liken carbs to cigarettes in some ways... no one ever died from smoking 1. No one knows which one will be the one that causes problems due to chronic exposure. But chronic exposure is almost certainly going to cause problems.

Carbs provide me with absolutely ZERO benefits that I can't get from other sources and come with a substantial and unnecessary health risks so in my own personal experience the benefit/risk assessment is a hard no.

Fun fact - there are NO "essential carbohydrates". None. Not a single one. You can live a normal productive life without consuming a single carb. I do not believe that is the case for either fats or proteins. Can you consume carbs? Absolutely. Do you need to? Absolutely not.
1) This is an absolutely bizarre notion. What do you think **** sapiens ate during their history? You think they saw fruit on a tree and thought "oh no, T2D" instead of "oh yummy"?

2) Really? Last I read it was certain protein deposits.

I find that hard to believe, given how metabolism works. You are not capable of strenuous activity without carbohydrates. You may be a beast at endurance activities with your fat metabolism, but without carbs you won't perform at high intensities.

Ok so yes, you are a beast at endurance activities (I actually wrote the above before reading your next paragraph), congratulations. Sounds pretty boring to me though, just riding zone 2 for that long.

Now this isn't just bizarre anymore, it is straight up ideological fiction. Google the regions of the world where people live the longest and what diets they have.

fun fact, people who say fun fact are full of s...

Edit: BF actually sensors the **** in **** sapiens...guys, it's a Latin word, get a grip
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Old 08-06-22, 12:05 PM
  #127  
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I'm not sure what "zone 2" is. I've attached some screenshot snippets from Strava for a 30-some km (all my riding is fasted) ride I did this morning. Not sure what they mean by "massive" in the second attachment... I didn't even break 200 BPM so I wouldn't call it a hard effort. lol

The second attachment might be an approximation of "zones"? On my upcoming Gran Fondo I expect to be in Z3/Z4 (as per the second attachment for maybe 3 hours day 1, 8 hours day 2 and 2 hours days 3)

200 pound rider (I walk with a cane sometimes), 50 pound bike with a 28T chainring... I'm happy with my current progress.


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Old 08-06-22, 03:25 PM
  #128  
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Originally Posted by RH Clark View Post
I got to my lowest body weight when I went total Vegan for 6 months, but I was hungry all the time and I bonked really hard once about 35 miles into a ride.
Of all the different fad diets out there, Vegan Diet is by far the worst and most unhealthy of them all. Human body needs animal foods in order to function at optimal levels. Animal foods are the most nutrient dense food out there.
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Old 08-06-22, 03:51 PM
  #129  
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
Of all the different fad diets out there, Vegan Diet is by far the worst and most unhealthy of them all. Human body needs animal foods in order to function at optimal levels. Animal foods are the most nutrient dense food out there.
It always amazes me when vegans start talking about all the things to look out for, be it certain foods that grow halfway across the world (i.e. our ancestors never had the chance to eat them) or taking supplements (again, not available in the past) and yet claim vegan is best.
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Old 08-06-22, 03:56 PM
  #130  
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Originally Posted by Bearhawker View Post
I'm not sure what "zone 2" is. I've attached some screenshot snippets from Strava for a 30-some km (all my riding is fasted) ride I did this morning. Not sure what they mean by "massive" in the second attachment... I didn't even break 200 BPM so I wouldn't call it a hard effort. lol

The second attachment might be an approximation of "zones"? On my upcoming Gran Fondo I expect to be in Z3/Z4 (as per the second attachment for maybe 3 hours day 1, 8 hours day 2 and 2 hours days 3)

200 pound rider (I walk with a cane sometimes), 50 pound bike with a 28T chainring... I'm happy with my current progress.

213 at 90kg is 2.36w/kg. Even I who eats a ton of carbs could do that for 90 minutes without needing to fuel. So I am not really sure what your point was here.

I highly doubt you can do zone 4 for 8 hours. By definition one isn't able to do that. Zone 4 is usually around +/- 5% of FTP which is 1 hour max. Ah, I replied without looking at the screenshot, that is a heartrate graph. That is not really very accurate or predictive.

Will you eat when you ride 8 hours a day?
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Old 08-06-22, 04:14 PM
  #131  
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I will eat after the ride. Nothing but black tea with lemon juice before the event and water and electrolytes during the ride, like *all* my rides. I won't even stop at the lunch stops - because I'm not fast on the fatbike, I don't waste any time stopped.

The Gran Fondo will be shorter overall with *WAY* less climbing than the Cabot Trail I did in 2019. On the Cabot Trail ride none of the days were more than 100km but there was ~4100 meters of climbing, 1950 meters on day 2. The Fondo should be "easy" compared to that ride and I ate nothing before supper then, too.

I have no way of measuring power at this time so I have no idea what I output. If I could afford that kind of accessory I might get a faster bike first. lol
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Old 08-07-22, 08:44 AM
  #132  
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Originally Posted by Bearhawker View Post
I will eat after the ride. Nothing but black tea with lemon juice before the event and water and electrolytes during the ride, like *all* my rides. I won't even stop at the lunch stops - because I'm not fast on the fatbike, I don't waste any time stopped.

The Gran Fondo will be shorter overall with *WAY* less climbing than the Cabot Trail I did in 2019. On the Cabot Trail ride none of the days were more than 100km but there was ~4100 meters of climbing, 1950 meters on day 2. The Fondo should be "easy" compared to that ride and I ate nothing before supper then, too.

I have no way of measuring power at this time so I have no idea what I output. If I could afford that kind of accessory I might get a faster bike first. lol
Not sure that is something to be proud of.

In his podcast, I believe even in the episode with Inigo san Milan, Peter Attia talks about his attempt at achieving a ketogenic state, and even then he mentions that he could eat a ton of carbs and stay ketogenic because they would just get used up as fuel during exercise.

Anyway, fat is slow burning, you can train yourself to use it as a fuel source exclusively, but there will be a limit to your power output. At some point where you are outputting too much, fat won't do it anymore.
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Old 08-07-22, 09:05 AM
  #133  
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Originally Posted by Bearhawker View Post
I'm not sure what "zone 2" is.
As defined by Coggan, Zone 2 is:
  • 56-75% of your threshold power
  • 69-83% of your threshold heart rate
Description:

“All day” pace, or classic long slow distance (LSD) training. Sensation of leg effort/fatigue generally low, but may rise periodically to higher levels (e.g., when climbing). Concentration generally required to maintain effort only at highest end of range and/or during longer training sessions...Frequent (daily) training sessions of moderate duration (e.g., 2 h) at level 2 possible (provided dietary carbohydrate is adequate), but complete recovery from very long workouts may take more than 24 hs.
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Old 08-07-22, 09:43 AM
  #134  
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Thanks. I should see I can borrow a PM from one of my more serious cycling friends just to satisfy my curiosity as I have no idea what power I can or do put out. I don't believe Strava's guesses and I'm not even sure they are consistent which would be *some* value even if not accurate.

Not quite clear on what a "threshold heart rate" is - presuming its a rate you can maintain for a period of time? I can average 150-160 all day, day after day. I frequently hit 200 at least once per ride and 210+, while rare, can and does happen. My resting HR is 49-51. The 220-age (55 years old) is pretty silly in my case.

One of these day I might take my wife's Liv out for a spin to see how much faster I am on a bike that isn't ridiculous (but fun!)
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Old 08-07-22, 10:01 AM
  #135  
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Originally Posted by Bearhawker View Post
Not quite clear on what a "threshold heart rate" is - presuming its a rate you can maintain for a period of time?
"Threshold heart rate" is your heart rate at lactate threshold. It's usually defined as the highest heart rate you can sustain for up to 1 hour.

Coggan describes how lactate threshold feels:

Essentially continuous sensation of moderate or even greater leg effort/fatigue. Continuous conversation difficult at best, due to depth/frequency of breathing. Effort sufficiently high that sustained exercise at this level is mentally very taxing.
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Old 08-08-22, 12:58 PM
  #136  
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
Of all the different fad diets out there, Vegan Diet is by far the worst and most unhealthy of them all. Human body needs animal foods in order to function at optimal levels. Animal foods are the most nutrient dense food out there.
​​​​​​That's why do many fastest known times are sweet by vegans and vegetarians.
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Old 08-08-22, 02:01 PM
  #137  
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
​​​​​​That's why do many fastest known times are sweet by vegans and vegetarians.
There's a bunch of elite athletes that have died young from physical problems. It doesn't matter whether you are a cyclist or a body builder. You can break all the records and be proclaimed by all as the best in the field. None of it means you are doing what is the healthiest for your body over the long term. The folks breaking records may be doing what it takes to break records, but it has no barring at all on what is or is not healthy.

I don't think an extreme in anything is healthy. What I am saying is don't get the idea that it's a good thing to be consuming all kinds of products marketed to athletes just because your favorite athlete uses them. They might help you win today, but you may lose in the long run.
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Old 08-08-22, 04:38 PM
  #138  
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Originally Posted by RH Clark View Post
There's a bunch of elite athletes that have died young from physical problems. It doesn't matter whether you are a cyclist or a body builder. You can break all the records and be proclaimed by all as the best in the field. None of it means you are doing what is the healthiest for your body over the long term. The folks breaking records may be doing what it takes to break records, but it has no barring at all on what is or is not healthy.

I don't think an extreme in anything is healthy. What I am saying is don't get the idea that it's a good thing to be consuming all kinds of products marketed to athletes just because your favorite athlete uses them. They might help you win today, but you may lose in the long run.
Wolfchild was telling us it isn't possible for humans to perform at a high level without meat. I posted about vegan and vegetarian athletes to fact check this claim. 👍
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Old 08-08-22, 05:46 PM
  #139  
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
Wolfchild was telling us it isn't possible for humans to perform at a high level without meat. I posted about vegan and vegetarian athletes to fact check this claim. 👍
10-4
I wouldn't say meat is necessary. From studying Blue Zone diets, I would say that occasional meat would be better than meat every day for long term health. A Vegan or Vegetarian diet can be healthy, but it's a little harder to get enough variety to get all your dietary needs.
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Old 08-11-22, 07:30 AM
  #140  
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Here's a study that looked at the effects of a short-term, high-protein diet on highly trained runners.

What they found is concerning:
  • time trial performance dropped 23.3%
  • gut viral population increased
  • gut bacteria diversity decreased
  • unhealthy gut bacteria increased

This study showed new data that isocaloric, high-protein diets in highly trained athletes resulted in reduced running performance that was correlated with alterations in gut viral communities. Importantly, changes in the viral communities represent a more sensitive marker of gut stress during dietary intervention than bacterial community analysis alone.
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Old 08-11-22, 09:21 AM
  #141  
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I've experimented with high protein, low fat, low carb, keto, vegan, pretty much every diet imaginable since 1998, and the one that makes the most sense to me is moderate protein and fat, and high carb with lots of fruits, veggies, and whole grains, and a low-moderate amount of meat. Low carb / keto can be good for temporarily cutting weight because you deplete your muscles of glycogen and water, but you can also run into hydration / electrolyte issues as well as lowering overall performance especially in endurance sports like cycling. I know there are studies that can conclude otherwise, but I can promise at the end of a 3+ hours road race when the attacks start coming, not having adequate glycogen or carbs is a major problem and it's hard to not get shot out the back. Worst case, myself and others I've talked to have experienced random weird heart related issues like palpitations and arrhythmia type symptoms when being totally carb depleted and most likely having electrolyte imbalances and trying to do endurance work. It's probably not dangerous, but it's not comfortable, and it's so easily avoidable. Another "side effect" of being low carb / high protein and doing lots of endurance is your sweat and clothes will smell like ammonia. Supposedly it's only temporary until your body adapts, but my body never adapted and I spent months where my cycling clothes would smell like a cat pissed in them after long rides. My suggestion, don't do it. If you need to lose weight then manage your calorie intake and improve the quality of food you eat, and spend more time on the bike!
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Old 09-22-22, 06:54 AM
  #142  
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While I'm certainly not on a keto diet, I started eating more "healthy fats" years ago as part of my off-the-bike diet. My experience was that it takes some time for one's body to get used to using fat as a fuel source vs carbs. After about a year of eating healthy fats (nuts, avocados, clean meats, etc.), I was amazed that I could go on my normal 40+ mile ride w/o any "snacks" and never "bonked". Heck, I'd finish a ride and not really feel all that hungry compared to when I ate carbs all the time. As far as I could tell, my rides weren't any slower on fats than on carbs, but then again, I usually ride solo at a moderately fast pace (16 - 19 mph average) and am not racing.

After doing a bit more research on the topic of carbs vs fats for cycling, the verdict seems to be that a high fat diet is good for endurance cycling, but carbs are indeed needed for shorter, high intensity workouts such as racing.
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Old 09-22-22, 08:53 AM
  #143  
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Your body never had to get use to using fat as a fuel source. It always has used fat for fuel. At best you are just conditioning your body to convert fat to energy at a faster rate.
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Old 09-22-22, 12:32 PM
  #144  
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Originally Posted by PoorInRichfield View Post
While I'm certainly not on a keto diet, I started eating more "healthy fats" years ago as part of my off-the-bike diet. My experience was that it takes some time for one's body to get used to using fat as a fuel source vs carbs. After about a year of eating healthy fats (nuts, avocados, clean meats, etc.), I was amazed that I could go on my normal 40+ mile ride w/o any "snacks" and never "bonked". Heck, I'd finish a ride and not really feel all that hungry compared to when I ate carbs all the time. As far as I could tell, my rides weren't any slower on fats than on carbs, but then again, I usually ride solo at a moderately fast pace (16 - 19 mph average) and am not racing.

After doing a bit more research on the topic of carbs vs fats for cycling, the verdict seems to be that a high fat diet is good for endurance cycling, but carbs are indeed needed for shorter, high intensity workouts such as racing.
'research'
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Old 09-25-22, 10:38 PM
  #145  
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Originally Posted by Bearhawker View Post
I'm not sure what "zone 2" is.
Zone 2 is the type of riding where you could answer your phone while riding and talk comfortably, but the person calling you would know you were exercising.
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Old 09-26-22, 05:00 AM
  #146  
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Originally Posted by Iride01 View Post
Your body never had to get use to using fat as a fuel source. It always has used fat for fuel. At best you are just conditioning your body to convert fat to energy at a faster rate.
Your body does not always use fat as a fuel source. Cells actually change over time to be more efficient at burning fat but only if fat becomes the cell's main source of energy for a prolonged time.
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Old 09-26-22, 10:00 AM
  #147  
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Originally Posted by RH Clark View Post
Your body does not always use fat as a fuel source. Cells actually change over time to be more efficient at burning fat but only if fat becomes the cell's main source of energy for a prolonged time.
Seems like you are saying pretty much what I just said.

Though I'll still maintain that the body is always using fat for part of it's energy. Depending on ones level of exertion energy from fat might be a lower or higher percentage of that total. Fat is the one energy source we will likely never run out of.
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Old 09-29-22, 04:14 PM
  #148  
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Originally Posted by terrymorse View Post
As defined by Coggan, Zone 2 is:
  • 56-75% of your threshold power
  • 69-83% of your threshold heart rate
Description:

“All day” pace, or classic long slow distance (LSD) training. Sensation of leg effort/fatigue generally low, but may rise periodically to higher levels (e.g., when climbing). Concentration generally required to maintain effort only at highest end of range and/or during longer training sessions...Frequent (daily) training sessions of moderate duration (e.g., 2 h) at level 2 possible (provided dietary carbohydrate is adequate), but complete recovery from very long workouts may take more than 24 hs.

A quick "hack" for estimating your zone 2 heart rate would be to subtract your age from 180 - i'm 50 years old , so that would be about 130 HRM - and if you're fit , add 5 BPM to that , so 135.

I wont exaggerate and claim to be particularly fit so i stick with 130 - which is an easy ride (or row , or whatever --- i'd have to put out a concerted effort to get up to 130 bpm by merely walking though ) -- i wear a Garmin watch myself , log all my recorded workouts on Strava - the whole bit . For me , the 180 minus my age seems to line up with what Garmin calls Zone 2 as well

I will add that the 220 minus age to estimate Max HR is flawed though - i've pushed it to 190 doing Tabata interval sessions on the rower, ---


- note: not jumping in here to debate the efficacy of keto vs anything else , just wanted to add that .quick n dirty way to estimate your zone 2 But for the record, im overweight and like a lot of overweight folks , have tried everything ---- but Zone 2 training seems to be a level that even us fat people can sustain for a long long time if duration is the goal -- but lordy, its boring
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Old 10-03-22, 09:56 AM
  #149  
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Interesting video, at least to me, from GCN comparing carbs to fats to protein as fuel during a ride...

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Old 10-03-22, 10:25 AM
  #150  
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Glucose level can never go to zero, otherwise we die. Before the advent of farming, the human'ss primary source of maintaining serum glucose levels is by utilizing the glycerol backbone from triglycerides to make glucose.
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