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Why don't people want to pedal anymore?

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Why don't people want to pedal anymore?

Old 10-04-22, 10:38 AM
  #376  
livedarklions
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Originally Posted by Herzlos View Post
I've never used a bicycle in the US, but it seems to be a relatively rare thing. In (as far as I understand it), most of the rest of the world, the bell is the standard "caution I'm here" noise.




The tone of bells are usually pretty good for allowing people to judge direction and distance, that's why emergency services use sirens which are essentially variable tone bells.
There are different powers and tones of bells, but there are also different tones and powers of voice too. But it's also much less likely that anyone is going to be walking along a MUP ringing a bell or listing to bells on their headphones, than they are to be listening to voices.

Multiple bells can be a problem, but even with 2 or 3 bells you can still tell where they are coming from, and anywhere that busy is going to be hell with people shouting "on your left".


You may not like bells, and maybe they are rare in the US, but they are better solution in most situations.
That last statement is absolutely inconsistent with everything I've observed about riding in the US. In the places I ride, bells cause way more confusion than voice. Your far-fetched scenarios are not going to convince me otherwise.

Sirens are not bells, that's ridiculous. You're likening a continuous wail to a very short tone. The point I was making about voice is that the announcement generally takes longer than a bell tone, thus giving my ears a better chance to triangulate where the sound is coming from.

I don't doubt that you ride in a place where bells are standard, that doesn't make you an expert on the problems with voice. Quite the opposite, you're basically admitting you have no experience with it. Again, I have no problems with people who choose to use bells, just stop trying to convince people who use voice that it isn't working. That's just stupid.

The problem with headphones, btw, is mostly noise cancellation. That works on pretty much anything at any frequency. And bells tend to be in a musical frequency, so you're really claiming that voice is something that might make it more likely that someone listening to a podcast on non-cancelling headphones will get confused between my yelling and the podcast. I think I can live with that obviously enormous (sarcasm) increase in my personal risk.

Maybe I'll ride with this strapped to my bike:

Last edited by livedarklions; 10-04-22 at 10:43 AM.
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Old 10-04-22, 10:57 AM
  #377  
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I use a bell then say “passing on your left”.

I’ve found walkers/runners with headphones hear my bell but not verbal commands.
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Old 10-04-22, 12:39 PM
  #378  
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Originally Posted by bikehoco View Post
I use a bell then say “passing on your left”.

I’ve found walkers/runners with headphones hear my bell but not verbal commands.

That's interesting. That makes sense if it's true that people hear your bell better, but announcing is better at telling them what you're doing.

I have a loud voice which colors my perception of what is or isn't heard better.
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Old 10-04-22, 02:54 PM
  #379  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
That last statement is absolutely inconsistent with everything I've observed about riding in the US. In the places I ride, bells cause way more confusion than voice. Your far-fetched scenarios are not going to convince me otherwise.
Fair enough. Bells don't cause any problems where I've ridden, albeit not the US.

Sirens are not bells, that's ridiculous. You're likening a continuous wail to a very short tone. The point I was making about voice is that the announcement generally takes longer than a bell tone, thus giving my ears a better chance to triangulate where the sound is coming from.
You're just being silly trying to find an argument. I was referring to the pitch - bells and sirens are mechanically different but both use sounds towards the higher end of our frequency range where they share the range with very little else, thus they stand out. Human voices are towards the bottom of the range which is shared with all kinds of background noise and thus can be lost.

A voice taking longer is not a good thing, you should be able to triangulate a bell pretty quickly, and there's nothing to say a bell only needs to be rung once.

I don't doubt that you ride in a place where bells are standard, that doesn't make you an expert on the problems with voice. Quite the opposite, you're basically admitting you have no experience with it. Again, I have no problems with people who choose to use bells, just stop trying to convince people who use voice that it isn't working. That's just stupid.
I'm just pointing out the science, though I admit I have no understanding of the US cultural dislike of bells. I also suffer from something call Auditory Processing Disorder, which makes it harder for me to discern voices out of background noise, thus to me and many people with hearing issues, someone shouting is much harder to recognize and respond to than a bell which doesn't need any language parsing.

You're welcome to think that voice is better and prefer that to bells, but the rest of the world will continue to ignore you

Here's a pretty interesting article on bells vs voice : https://cyclingsavvy.org/2020/10/bicycle-bell-or-voice/
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Old 10-04-22, 02:55 PM
  #380  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
That makes sense if it's true that people hear your bell better
It is. That's why bells are in use...
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Old 10-04-22, 02:58 PM
  #381  
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Originally Posted by Herzlos View Post
Fair enough. Bells don't cause any problems where I've ridden, albeit not the US.



You're just being silly trying to find an argument. I was referring to the pitch - bells and sirens are mechanically different but both use sounds towards the higher end of our frequency range where they share the range with very little else, thus they stand out. Human voices are towards the bottom of the range which is shared with all kinds of background noise and thus can be lost.

A voice taking longer is not a good thing, you should be able to triangulate a bell pretty quickly, and there's nothing to say a bell only needs to be rung once.



I'm just pointing out the science, though I admit I have no understanding of the US cultural dislike of bells. I also suffer from something call Auditory Processing Disorder, which makes it harder for me to discern voices out of background noise, thus to me and many people with hearing issues, someone shouting is much harder to recognize and respond to than a bell which doesn't need any language parsing.

You're welcome to think that voice is better and prefer that to bells, but the rest of the world will continue to ignore you

Whatever dude. I see people ringing bells getting ignored a lot more than I see anyone announcing being ignored.
I am not ignored here when I ride, so I really don't care if it's frowned on in Holland.

Your "science" is absurd, but I'm too bored to carry on with this any further. Please show me any peer reviewed studies documenting your obviously improvised assertions.
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Old 10-04-22, 06:48 PM
  #382  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
That's interesting. That makes sense if it's true that people hear your bell better, but announcing is better at telling them what you're doing.
I would discourage the notion that one should use only bell or voice. On our trails, it seems to work best to use both, at least part of the time.

I start by using a set of bell rings to alert pedestrians that a bike approaches, so they aren’t suddenly startled by a bike up close. As I get closer, I follow up with a clear statement of what I am doing, such as “bicycle passing on the left”.

Many trail regulars know even the particular sound of my brass bell and give a hand signal to acknowledge they know it’s me about to pass on the left.

If it isn’t a regular I recognize, I will still speak my intent and be very specific. Sometimes they are positioned so that the clear route is on the right, and my message will reflect my intent.

If there are kids or obvious trail newbies, I will also slow down as much as it takes to give time for them to figure out the situation, sort themselves enough to leave a path and to give me time to react if they move in an unexpected way.

Also, people tend to lose HF hearing as they age and the frequencies of a bell may be beyond hearing range, so for those who look to be my age or older, I allow for that and slow way down and then speak my intent loudly.

Of course, many pedestrians have headphones on and don’t hear any outside noise. In that case, I use the bell and speak my intention, but I also slow down and prepare to react if they move suddenly and unexpectedly because they are oblivious.

That works very well on our trails. YMMV.

Otto
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Old 10-04-22, 08:17 PM
  #383  
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Originally Posted by ofajen View Post
I would discourage the notion that one should use only bell or voice. On our trails, it seems to work best to use both, at least part of the time.

I start by using a set of bell rings to alert pedestrians that a bike approaches, so they aren’t suddenly startled by a bike up close. As I get closer, I follow up with a clear statement of what I am doing, such as “bicycle passing on the left”.

Many trail regulars know even the particular sound of my brass bell and give a hand signal to acknowledge they know it’s me about to pass on the left.

If it isn’t a regular I recognize, I will still speak my intent and be very specific. Sometimes they are positioned so that the clear route is on the right, and my message will reflect my intent.

If there are kids or obvious trail newbies, I will also slow down as much as it takes to give time for them to figure out the situation, sort themselves enough to leave a path and to give me time to react if they move in an unexpected way.

Also, people tend to lose HF hearing as they age and the frequencies of a bell may be beyond hearing range, so for those who look to be my age or older, I allow for that and slow way down and then speak my intent loudly.

Of course, many pedestrians have headphones on and don’t hear any outside noise. In that case, I use the bell and speak my intention, but I also slow down and prepare to react if they move suddenly and unexpectedly because they are oblivious.

That works very well on our trails. YMMV.

Otto

I think the "right" method is going to vary depending on where we ride, how we ride, and personal characteristics like the natural tone and pitch of our voices. I'm not having any significant issues making myself heard and understood, so I don't need a bell. Totally agree with you on the YMMV, and maybe I might feel differently if I rode where you are.
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Old 10-05-22, 09:36 AM
  #384  
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Originally Posted by prj71 View Post
There is a 52 mile paved bike trail about an hour from home that I will ride at least once a year. I've been riding this trail for 7 years now.

This past weekend I spent a day riding it and was amazed that roughly ~80% of the users I encountered were on e-bikes and the majority of them were young people...20's and 30's. Not the older people that may have some disability or other physical limitation that would otherwise prevent them from riding. This is something that I never seen before in the years I've been riding it and found it somewhat disturbing.

Then to top it off...some of them almost ran into me causing a crash. You could tell that they lacked biked handling skills (probably their 3rd time riding a bike in years) and were weaving all over the trail instead of sticking to the side and normally wouldn't be riding that fast if they had to pedal.

I just don't get this e-bike craze.
It's how they're raised. I bet they eat fast food and use escalators too. That's ok. When they have diabetes in their 30's they'll know. I'd never allow an E bike in my house lol. Walk, ride a real bike, or get a car. Lazy people.
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Old 10-05-22, 01:13 PM
  #385  
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Originally Posted by Hiro11 View Post
This is a straw man. No one here is saying that "ebikes are ALWAYS cheating" or that "the ONLY valid type of cycling is a suffer fest" or that "you CAN'T use a bike to just get around/have fun/see scenery". In fact, people here have been very clear that they agree with you on all of your points.
Originally Posted by buddiiee View Post
It's how they're raised. I bet they eat fast food and use escalators too. That's ok. When they have diabetes in their 30's they'll know. I'd never allow an E bike in my house lol. Walk, ride a real bike, or get a car. Lazy people.

Sorry, Hiro11 , a ton of straw just got delivered. Apparently, if you ride an ebike instead of driving, you'll get diabetes, Who knew?

buddiiee , I call BS. You're actually claiming that riding an ebike is lazier than driving a car? Last time I checked, fast food places have drive-thru windows, not ebike thru.
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Old 10-05-22, 01:33 PM
  #386  
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Originally Posted by buddiiee View Post
It's how they're raised. I bet they eat fast food and use escalators too. That's ok. When they have diabetes in their 30's they'll know. I'd never allow an E bike in my house lol. Walk, ride a real bike, or get a car. Lazy people.


Gotta love General.
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Old 10-05-22, 02:28 PM
  #387  
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Originally Posted by indyfabz View Post


Gotta love General.

Spoken like a true escalator user.
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Old 10-05-22, 03:09 PM
  #388  
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Re: bells vs. voice.

So far we have people claiming that bells are easier to hear, and that the pitches of bells are easier to hear than the pitches of voices.

So ... one sound is "easier to hear"? In all conditions? Absurd.

And all bells have the same pitch, right? And so do all human voices?

We have a bell proponent (who is also a proponent of calling out ( @ofajen )) admitting that older people don't always hear bell frequencies. On top of that, whether or not a person is in a conversation with another walker, on the phone holding it near an ear, or wearing headphones or earbuds (invisible until too late to know) all affect whether a bell will be noticed. (Shoot, with earbud wearers I have shouted at top volume repeatedly and gotten no response---walkers can be totally in personal worlds with zero awareness of anything not immediately ahead and exceedingly visible.)

Ofajen also says that most people know his bell and those who don't, he treats differently. How fast is he going then? Because I see no way to determine if a person has heard me before beside that person physically reacting .... if I am rolling up on a pedestrian, I have Zero clue who it is ... and even if I know them personally, I have no idea if they are listening to music or voice on earbuds.

I call out and I do it as early as possibly exactly because I want time to react if the pedestrian ignores me, or, as often happens, panics and moves in some unpredictable way (and if there is a dog (often loosely) attached, the possible bad outcomes multiply.) I don't want to have to slow to a crawl every time I am near a person, so I try to get a reaction far enough in advance that I have time to react---I can brake to a stop fairly quickly, or ride off the trail if need be, but that usually upsets everyone. Better, in my opinion, if pedestrians know I am coming and just keep walking in the same lane so i can pass without disturbing either of us.

And maybe in some countries, bells are the norm, and no one ever walks on bike paths wearing earbuds at 11, and everyone knows exactly what to do when they hear a bell ... . but what is it they should do? All a bell says is "Something is coming" (if anyone hears it at all.) A voice can say where someone is coming from and what they intend to do. If I see someone in the middle of the path and ring a bell .... now what? They might go either way. If I pick the direction and announce it, both of us have abetter idea of what to expect.

In any case, the issue isn't with people getting upset---even people I have startled badly (usually by passing slowly on the left, after repeated shouted warnings .... ) haven't gotten mad at me. I think that is an invention by people trying to support their own personal preferences over all other possibilities. How would those people know how people would react if they never tried calling out "Approaching on your left" in whatever language?

But ... whatever. I know the few times I have ridden MUPs, calling out has never been a problem, and I can guarantee my voice is louder and more piercing than your bell---and at max volume still hasn't been enough on many occasions.

But, if I were riding in a situation where everybody was using bells and all the pedestrians were behaving rationally and safely in response ... super. After all, what we want is Not to say "My way is better and therefore I am better and you are all stupid." What we want is to pass people safely for both rider and pedestrian (or other rider.)

Man, people fight over the silliest things.

Last edited by Maelochs; 10-05-22 at 03:12 PM.
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Old 10-05-22, 03:26 PM
  #389  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
Spoken like a true escalator user.
I’m riding on the escalator of life.

When I’m really feeling lazy, I take the moving walkways in the airport and stand in the middle to block the path.
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Old 10-05-22, 03:50 PM
  #390  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
Re: bells vs. voice.
Man, people fight over the silliest things.
The fight started when a one poster who also happens to be loudmouth made an absurd statement and said that bells are completely useless and ineffective and that the only proper way for a cyclist to announce themselves is to shout and yell on your left.
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Old 10-05-22, 03:58 PM
  #391  
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Who started a stupid fight doesn't change the fact that it is a stupid fight and all the people who joined in were acting stupidly.

Not say This thread is such a fight, but in general, "He started it" is a pretty lame excuse. If a guy jumps into a cesspool and challenges others to jump in with him, who is the winner? The folks who didn't play.
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Old 10-05-22, 05:48 PM
  #392  
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Wrong.


Discuss.
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Old 10-05-22, 07:07 PM
  #393  
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
I prefer to use a bell, it has never failed me yet. I can't stand cyclists who shout and yell on your left.
Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
The fight started when a one poster who also happens to be loudmouth made an absurd statement and said that bells are completely useless and ineffective and that the only proper way for a cyclist to announce themselves is to shout and yell on your left.
You big liar. No one said that, and you started it with the above. If, as I suspect, you're calling me the "loudmouth", the closest thing I came to that is to say I hate bells (which I do esthetically) and that my announcing appears to work better than bells where I ride.

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Old 10-05-22, 07:18 PM
  #394  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
Who started a stupid fight doesn't change the fact that it is a stupid fight and all the people who joined in were acting stupidly.

Not say This thread is such a fight, but in general, "He started it" is a pretty lame excuse. If a guy jumps into a cesspool and challenges others to jump in with him, who is the winner? The folks who didn't play.

Hate to break it to you, but you're in it with both feet now. I think the stupidity in this fight has come from people telling others that they shouldn't use whatever it is that's working for them. I'm not going to claim that bells aren't working for people, I'm just sick of the bs objections people make to announcing that I know from experience are complete nonsense.
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Old 10-05-22, 07:59 PM
  #395  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
Hate to break it to you, but you're in it with both feet now.
that won't make the 11 o'clock news, pal ....
Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
I think the stupidity in this fight has come from people telling others that they shouldn't use whatever it is that's working for them.
The stupidity comes from people being stupid. All of us have done it at one time or another. Many people have done it here.
Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
I'm not going to claim that bells aren't working for people, I'm just sick of the bs objections people make to announcing that I know from experience are complete nonsense.
Yup. And if you read what I posted, I seconded those views. You have a bad habit of attacking your allies. But .... I have come to expect that from you. it certainly doesn't bother me any more.

But yeah .... most BF posts either start stupid or stay stupid, some much worse than others. This one .... how did we even get to bells?

Whatever. It's BF. People who take it seriously are .... well, different from me, for sure.
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Old 10-05-22, 08:32 PM
  #396  
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Yet another inane argument where one poster says, “I’m right” and the other says “I’m right” or “you’re wrong” and “no, your wrong” and nobody else really cares. Why don’t you take this silliness to PM or better yet, just drop it.
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Old 10-06-22, 05:24 AM
  #397  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
that won't make the 11 o'clock news, pal .... The stupidity comes from people being stupid. All of us have done it at one time or another. Many people have done it here. Yup. And if you read what I posted, I seconded those views. You have a bad habit of attacking your allies. But .... I have come to expect that from you. it certainly doesn't bother me any more.

But yeah .... most BF posts either start stupid or stay stupid, some much worse than others. This one .... how did we even get to bells?

Whatever. It's BF. People who take it seriously are .... well, different from me, for sure.

​​​​​​ The only thing that could've been considered a knock was saying you stepped in it which was obviously a joke about you calling the argument a cesspool.. Since I had liked your post and everything of substance in my post agreed with your post, I took it for granted you'd have a sense of humor about your being just as argumentative. Guess I won't make that mistake again.

I think this is the second time I've had to tell you I wasn't arguing with you in this thread, maybe take a little time to actually read what I wrote before hitting reply next time?

BTW, I'm pretty sure the last time I did actually post something that could be considered an "attack", you had butted into an argument to lecture me on civility and how you were a model of not taking bf too seriously. I've been at the receiving end of enough of your attacks that I didn't take that well. So maybe just stop telling me about my bad habits and actually try to stick to the subject.

If you want me to tell you what your glaring bad habit is, pm me. I don't really want to air anything more out in the thread, and am only doing so because you made this personal. And if you're seeing this as a matter of alliances, you are taking bf wayyyyy too seriously.

Last edited by livedarklions; 10-06-22 at 05:27 AM.
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Old 10-06-22, 05:32 AM
  #398  
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^ Okay, I will try to do better.

Thanks.
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Old 10-06-22, 05:51 AM
  #399  
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Originally Posted by growlerdinky View Post
Wrong.


Discuss.
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Old 11-03-22, 05:25 AM
  #400  
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A friend of mine just had an ebike experience,

This is an older, strictly old school rider that had been saving the time and money to do a few organized tours with a well known company in the US that sets up these bucket list style expensive tours where all the food and lodging needs are met and you just ride,

He had been training extra hard for this rather grueling Napa wine country tour that has a few very steep climbs coupled with a few long day ride options for stronger riders, it was a five day tour,

Everything had been thought out and planned and all good to go. When he showed up he was surprised to find he was one of three conventional bikes on the tour, the remaining riders (about a dozen) were on E-bikes. The tour made no distinction between bike types and, right from day one, he was riding alone, showing up late for lunches and lodging, no one to chat with or help finding directions. The tour operators were kind and encouraging but, really, there was little they could do.

This was not the experience he had hoped for.
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