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Interacting with Traffic

Old 10-04-22, 01:53 PM
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55tele
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Interacting with Traffic

Maybe I'm way off base here, but I'm increasingly frustrated during my daily 10-15 mile rides with folks driving motor vehicles that lack common sense . My biggest peeve is when I'm stopped at a cross street where motor traffic is moving and I am clearly stopped (with one leg down) and these people STOP and want me to cross in front of them. They have the best of intentions but they have now 1) blocked traffic unnecessarily behind them and 2) if I WERE to startup and cross in front of them, I have no confidence in their intentions....

My basic MO when riding is to defer to motor vehicle traffic. I feel far safer let them pass and get out of the way. Many times I have to waive them on...sometimes they just will not go, wanting me to cross in front of them.....This applies many times at 4 way stops......

Very frustrating......I hate dealing with these clueless "do-gooders"...
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Old 10-04-22, 02:07 PM
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My solution to nice holes is I have at least one foot on the ground and I cross my arms. 95% get the message.
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Old 10-04-22, 02:08 PM
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55tele
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Never thought of the arm crossing.....I'll try it!
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Old 10-04-22, 02:09 PM
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Drivers yielding to you when they're not supposed to can indeed be very frustrating - especially because one driver doing so doesn't mean that the others you'd interact with if you took that invitation are also going to be accommodating.

You'd think that things like slowing or even stopping well short of the intersection would make your intentions clear, but they'll even do it then, too.

To be fair though, you can readily see people in threads right here angrily demanding that drivers accommodate beyond the law in this manner - nevermind how dangerous it is to accept that invitation, or get used to expecting deference outside the law, they insist that such deference be made.

Further, your own words "I have no confidence in their intentions...." are how a lot of drivers actually do feel about cyclists - they don't know if we're going to stop in those many, many places where it's actually the cars that have the right of way, so they assume that we're not going to, and that assumption becomes such a habit that the inertia of assuming we're not going to stop continues even after we have stopped.
We need people on both sides to actually follow the laws.

There is, however, one thing I'd like to see, and that's to have major rail trail intersections with minor roads have a stop sign on the road. That won't happen so long as trails are treated as parks rather than transit routes, but it's very much needed - especially as so many road/rail intersections have terrible geometry and brush is allowed to grow wild at the corners making the sightlines even worse.

The reality is that "yielding" to bikes on a typical cycling route doesn't work, because even rather slow cyclists can move from being out of sight behind obstacles to into the roadway far too quickly. We should only be asking drivers to yield to cyclists if we are willing to require that they STOP even when there doesn't appear to be anyone on the intersecting path - crosswalk type "yield or keep moving" rules work for pedestrians, but not for cyclists, and road vs road type yield rules only work if the cycling routes have the visual sight-lines of roads and the cyclists are being careful to ride well out from the visual obstructions of their edges.

Either the drivers have an actual stop sign, or the cyclists have to assume that it is we, and not the drivers who have to yield - because in physical practice it is, and in much of the US the law even says so.

Last edited by UniChris; 10-04-22 at 02:21 PM.
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Old 10-04-22, 02:37 PM
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What I dislike is when cars won't pass from behind when 1) There is tons of room, 2) there is no reason for them not to, 3) we are both far enough away from an intersection where it makes absolutely no sense for them not to pass, and 4) I'm obviously slowing down so they can. I feel like I'm being stalked. I'm very predictable on the bike. If they don't pass, I'll eventually take the lane when I'm too close to an intersection not to. I've been right hooked when sitting still at a stop light when I had the pole position. That doesn't happen anymore.

Glenn
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Old 10-04-22, 03:20 PM
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I understand what you're saying. I don't go right up to the front if I have to stop with a line of cars behind me. I'll hang back a few car lengths. Once that first car moved out they forget about me. Fortunately, this doesn't happen often for me in a mostly rural area.
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Old 10-04-22, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by UniChris View Post
Drivers yielding to you when they're not supposed to can indeed be very frustrating - especially because one driver doing so doesn't mean that the others you'd interact with if you took that invitation are also going to be accommodating.

You'd think that things like slowing or even stopping well short of the intersection would make your intentions clear, but they'll even do it then, too.

To be fair though, you can readily see people in threads right here angrily demanding that drivers accommodate beyond the law in this manner - nevermind how dangerous it is to accept that invitation, or get used to expecting deference outside the law, they insist that such deference be made.

Further, your own words "I have no confidence in their intentions...." are how a lot of drivers actually do feel about cyclists - they don't know if we're going to stop in those many, many places where it's actually the cars that have the right of way, so they assume that we're not going to, and that assumption becomes such a habit that the inertia of assuming we're not going to stop continues even after we have stopped.
We need people on both sides to actually follow the laws.
Very well put, and it's hard to get upset at someone who is just being extra careful.
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Old 10-04-22, 04:00 PM
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I get this a lot when I pull up to 4-way stops, I've learned to not look in their direction and pretend like I'm scratching my leg or something.
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Old 10-04-22, 04:14 PM
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I have people stopping for me too. I just sit there until they get tired and drive on. Crossing your arms, taking a drink of your bottle sometimes gets them on their way.

It is annoying that many times it's the last driver in a group of cars that stops. And all that does is allow the gap to the following group of cars to close and I have to wait for all of them too.

People think they are being nice to you by stopping. It makes them mad when you refuse their graciousness. One driver actually shouted at me saying that I was being racist because I refused to cross while they waited!

Yesterday I was at a crossing with a runner. She told me she didn't understand why driver's seemed less likely to stop for her at this one particular crossing. I told her I never want drivers to stop. She looked at me incredulously. I was about to point out to her that we had a stop sign and the crossing intersection, a four lane divided road didn't have a stop sign. But then a car stopped and she went on. I waited.

Part of your OP seemed to indicate you might defer your right-of-way or other rules of the road situations where you have the privilege. I don't necessarily agree with giving up such. All that does is confuse the other person that is simply using the proper rules of the road to give way to you. But knowing the exact situation and seeing the environment you are talking about might change my opinion of that instance.

Last edited by Iride01; 10-04-22 at 04:32 PM.
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Old 10-04-22, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by GAtkins View Post
What I dislike is when cars won't pass from behind when 1) There is tons of room, 2) there is no reason for them not to, 3) we are both far enough away from an intersection where it makes absolutely no sense for them not to pass, and 4) I'm obviously slowing down so they can. I feel like I'm being stalked. I'm very predictable on the bike. If they don't pass, I'll eventually take the lane when I'm too close to an intersection not to. I've been right hooked when sitting still at a stop light when I had the pole position. That doesn't happen anymore.

Glenn
It is annoying when cars have the ROW but dont take it. Glenn- greetings to you from Springdale, Ohio
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Old 10-04-22, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by epnnf View Post
It is annoying when cars have the ROW but dont take it. Glenn- greetings to you from Springdale, Ohio
Thank you my friend.

Glenn
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Old 10-04-22, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by UniChris View Post

You'd think that things like slowing or even stopping well short of the intersection would make your intentions clear, but they'll even do it then, too.
I find that generally works for me. Of course you can only do it if no one is behind you.

But if I do get stuck with insistent yielders, I'll just go. I don't have the patience to force the issue.
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Old 10-04-22, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Iride01 View Post
I have people stopping for me too. I just sit there until they get tired and drive on. Crossing your arms, taking a drink of your bottle sometimes gets them on their way.

It is annoying that many times it's the last driver in a group of cars that stops. And all that does is allow the gap to the following group of cars to close and I have to wait for all of them too.

People think they are being nice to you by stopping. It makes them mad when you refuse their graciousness. One driver actually shouted at me saying that I was being racist because I refused to cross while they waited!

Yesterday I was at a crossing with a runner. She told me she didn't understand why driver's seemed less likely to stop for her at this one particular crossing. I told her I never want drivers to stop. She looked at me incredulously. I was about to point out to her that we had a stop sign and the crossing intersection, a four lane divided road didn't have a stop sign. But then a car stopped and she went on. I waited.

Part of your OP seemed to indicate you might defer your right-of-way or other rules of the road situations where you have the privilege. I don't necessarily agree with giving up such. All that does is confuse the other person that is simply using the proper rules of the road to give way to you. But knowing the exact situation and seeing the environment you are talking about might change my opinion of that instance.
Mostly I was referring to semi rural roads with two or three blocks equivalent distance to pass me. Coming up on an intersection I'm not going that fast. Sometimes I even quit pedaling and obviously slow down, or both.

It either forces me to take the lane when it's not necessary if they would just go around or taking the lane much further in advance of when would normally be necessary just waiting for them to pass safely. Meaning they have much time and distance to pass and they won't. It's like they don't know what to do when it should be more than obvious.

Glenn
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Old 10-04-22, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Iride01 View Post
I have people stopping for me too. I just sit there until they get tired and drive on. Crossing your arms, taking a drink of your bottle sometimes gets them on their way.

It is annoying that many times it's the last driver in a group of cars that stops. And all that does is allow the gap to the following group of cars to close and I have to wait for all of them too.

People think they are being nice to you by stopping. It makes them mad when you refuse their graciousness. One driver actually shouted at me saying that I was being racist because I refused to cross while they waited!

Yesterday I was at a crossing with a runner. She told me she didn't understand why driver's seemed less likely to stop for her at this one particular crossing. I told her I never want drivers to stop. She looked at me incredulously. I was about to point out to her that we had a stop sign and the crossing intersection, a four lane divided road didn't have a stop sign. But then a car stopped and she went on. I waited.

Part of your OP seemed to indicate you might defer your right-of-way or other rules of the road situations where you have the privilege. I don't necessarily agree with giving up such. All that does is confuse the other person that is simply using the proper rules of the road to give way to you. But knowing the exact situation and seeing the environment you are talking about might change my opinion of that instance.
Just to follow up on your last paragraph. It would be better for them and me to just go around me.

Glenn
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Old 10-04-22, 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by jon c. View Post
But if I do get stuck with insistent yielders, I'll just go. I don't have the patience to force the issue.
I'll go if it's safe to and I'm not in a mood to "educate"

Things like people insisting on out-of-order at all ways stops really annoy me though.

Yielding to a left turn, especially when I've hinted my intent by lane position but not yet signalled it is a mixed bag.

The one where I wish we'd just change the signage to an all-way stop is situations where a rail trail crosses a comparative or lesser road. Sure I could force the issue by dismounting - and if that's the only way I'm getting through, I will. But if I'm holding back well short of the crossing because I see a car, I wish they'd just go and accept that I've timed things for de-conflict ion to everyone's benefit. Everytime I ride through something like that it reminds me why it's better to already be on the road, rather than to be interacting with it from an outside-the-system illogical exception.

What really gets me is when I'm on a main road and someone at a stop sign defers because they see traffic, then decides they don't want to be stuck behind an *$%^!@# cyclist and accelerates towards me just as I'm deciding its safe to proceed. Go ahead and go with slightly less allowance than you'd use for car, as long as I only have to slow and not panic stop I'd rather have you in front than behind and needing to pass. But don't wait until I'm committed to passing where you are and then go when I'm literally right in your path! Called a guy on that and had him roll down the window and try to spit at me, but being in a metal box he was unaware of the prevailing wind and that didn't work out so well for him...
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Old 10-04-22, 08:28 PM
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I find it annoying too, near pet peeve levels. To make it worse, they're often the only vehicle, and it would have been faster for everyone if they had just driven through.

Sometimes I'll get out a water bottle and turn my head away from them while drinking from it. Sometimes I'll wave them on with a scowl on my face. Probably I should find some zen way of not being frustrated about it.
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Old 10-05-22, 06:24 AM
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I normally just shake my head no. I may simply look down until they go.
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Old 10-05-22, 06:36 AM
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If they have right of way, I just stand there waving them on until they move.
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Old 10-05-22, 07:09 AM
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Originally Posted by GAtkins View Post
What I dislike is when cars won't pass from behind when 1) There is tons of room, 2) there is no reason for them not to, 3) we are both far enough away from an intersection where it makes absolutely no sense for them not to pass, and 4) I'm obviously slowing down so they can. I feel like I'm being stalked. I'm very predictable on the bike. If they don't pass, I'll eventually take the lane when I'm too close to an intersection not to. I've been right hooked when sitting still at a stop light when I had the pole position. That doesn't happen anymore.

Glenn
I agree, I think this is the thing I hate the most. I start to get paranoid about why they're staying behind me instead of passing.
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Old 10-05-22, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by GAtkins View Post
Mostly I was referring to semi rural roads with two or three blocks equivalent distance to pass me. Coming up on an intersection I'm not going that fast. Sometimes I even quit pedaling and obviously slow down, or both.

It either forces me to take the lane when it's not necessary if they would just go around or taking the lane much further in advance of when would normally be necessary just waiting for them to pass safely. Meaning they have much time and distance to pass and they won't. It's like they don't know what to do when it should be more than obvious.

Glenn
I feel like you are defending yourself for this comment I made at the end of my post.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iride01 View Post
............
...........
Part of your OP seemed to indicate you might defer your right-of-way or other rules of the road situations where you have the privilege. I don't necessarily agree with giving up such. All that does is confuse the other person that is simply using the proper rules of the road to give way to you. But knowing the exact situation and seeing the environment you are talking about might change my opinion of that instance.
However I didn't specifically quote you and I even stated OP, which is to be taken as the origin post/original post of the thread or the person making that origin post.

So I'm a little confused as to why you even quoted me? Much less do I understand the situation you are posing. Perhaps you are just building on my other statements somehow.

In addition my comments are only about crossing traffic at intersections of roads and MUP's which is most of what I perceived the OP to be concerned with. Not following traffic.

Last edited by Iride01; 10-05-22 at 08:40 AM.
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Old 10-05-22, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Iride01 View Post
I feel like you are defending yourself for this comment I made at the end of my post.....



However I didn't specifically quote you and I even stated OP, which is to be taken as the origin post/original post of the thread or the person making that origin post.

So I'm a little confused as to why you even quoted me? Much less do I understand the situation you are posing. Perhaps you are just building on my other statements somehow.

In addition my comments are only about crossing traffic at intersections of roads and MUP's which is most of what I perceived the OP to be concerned with. Not following traffic.
My mistake, as I inferred something slightly different than what you intended I think.

You are correct in everything above. I was trying to expand on my "defending" comment because I incorrectly mistook your reference to "your OP" as referring to my OP, rather than to "the OP" which would be referring to the original OP.

That's really circular isn't it? Anyway, we're on the same page. It's all good.

Glenn
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Old 10-05-22, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by GAtkins View Post
My mistake, as I inferred something slightly different than what you intended I think.

You are correct in everything above. I was trying to expand on my "defending" comment because I incorrectly mistook your reference to "your OP" as referring to my OP, rather than to "the OP" which would be referring to the original OP.

That's really circular isn't it? Anyway, we're on the same page. It's all good.

Glenn
No harm, no foul.

I sometimes am just a little dense and if I don't see a direct reason why I was quoted, then I get confused. I'm sure I've done the same to some I've quoted! I sometimes have even mistaken a quote as someone disagreeing with me when they are in fact agreeing or just adding to a thought.
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Old 10-05-22, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by 55tele View Post
Maybe I'm way off base here, but I'm increasingly frustrated during my daily 10-15 mile rides with folks driving motor vehicles that lack common sense . My biggest peeve is when I'm stopped at a cross street where motor traffic is moving and I am clearly stopped (with one leg down) and these people STOP and want me to cross in front of them. They have the best of intentions but they have now 1) blocked traffic unnecessarily behind them and 2) if I WERE to startup and cross in front of them, I have no confidence in their intentions....
My basic MO when riding is to defer to motor vehicle traffic. I feel far safer let them pass and get out of the way. Many times I have to waive them on...sometimes they just will not go, wanting me to cross in front of them.....This applies many times at 4 way stops......
Very frustrating......I hate dealing with these clueless "do-gooders"...
I hear ya, you're not alone, I too have waived them on. on a rare occasion, I stupidly relented & crossed, only to have another car pass the stopped car on the right, not seeing me & almost hit me. the passing car did not know why the first car stopped & instead of trusting, they just decided to fly by
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Old 10-05-22, 06:32 PM
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niceholes will be niceholes
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Old 10-06-22, 06:18 AM
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Originally Posted by 55tele View Post
Maybe I'm way off base here, but I'm increasingly frustrated during my daily 10-15 mile rides with folks driving motor vehicles that lack common sense . My biggest peeve is when I'm stopped at a cross street where motor traffic is moving and I am clearly stopped (with one leg down) and these people STOP and want me to cross in front of them. They have the best of intentions but they have now 1) blocked traffic unnecessarily behind them and 2) if I WERE to startup and cross in front of them, I have no confidence in their intentions....

My basic MO when riding is to defer to motor vehicle traffic. I feel far safer let them pass and get out of the way. Many times I have to waive them on...sometimes they just will not go, wanting me to cross in front of them.....This applies many times at 4 way stops......

Very frustrating......I hate dealing with these clueless "do-gooders"...
They aren’t “doing good”. They just don’t trust you (possibly based on the irrational behavior of other cyclists).
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