tiger1964 

There’s something I’m not “getting” on something as straightforward as Campy downtime shift levers. So, in the topic at For Sale/WTB:

NEED SHIFTERS OR PARTS

MadHonk helps out and sends me the hardware kit, and I have the levers themselves, stop plates and wing screws.



Great, and they arrived now. Hmm, running into something. All looks good except the thick washer with no keying, that goes on the "back side" of the lever between the lever and the back stop at the frame, seems really thick. Yeah, trying to install and they go one but the thickness pushes the lever away from he frame enough that the convex disc (chromed, keyed, convex backside) will not "key", as in the flats engage the flats on ends of the bosses. Are they're more than one type of these? I measure and those washers at 3.67mm thick, and the recess on the back of the lever is 2.00mm That really odd — or is it?


So I got check out my Masi, and remove the hardware & lever for the RD. The back washer is a mere 2.82mm thick, is that a significant difference? Seem so. but the recess on the back of the lever itself remains at 2.00mm (well, 1.93 but I presume inaccurate measuring) And it’s plastic, although I’m not using the plastic-conical-washer type on the front side. And, even more oddly… missing the flat steel keyed washer? I’ve been riding like that? Sounds like I need more of those anyway.

If I reassemble the Masi but insert the thin flex washer, the metal conical outer washer engages the flats on the bosses — BARELY. Is that the correct assembly? Seems so, all the parts look like they are in play. So what am I not doing right on my wife’s bike, where the thicker back washer prevents using the “keying”? Is there more than one kind? Pretty sure I was sent the right thing, but it surely looks like only one way to assemble them.

tiger1964 

SHOOT!


Meant this to appear in Classic & Vintage... not Classic & Vintage Sales.

Bogester 

This is so odd. I just installed campy levers on my latest project (should finish tomorrow) and I ran into the same problem...on one side! I thought installing levers would be about a ten minute protect but it took an hour of fiddling to get them both on. One side seemed fine..inside flat washer, lever, key-washer, chrome keyed washer, screw-in piece. The other side stuck out to far to get all the washers to fit smoothly. My inside washers were plastic so I attempted to thin it down by rubbing it against some sand paper. This kind of worked but I still couldn't get the outer chrome keyed washer to fit in place. After much swearing and fiddling I left the thin inner keyed washer off and just installed the outer chrome one. It fit into place and the lever seems to be shifting just fine. I'll get the bike on the road probably tomorrow so we'll see how it goes. I got a couple extra thin keyed washers if you need one. Good luck.

tiger1964 

Interestingly, no idea how to find a moderator for the forum to ask that the topic be moved; I thought it would be easy to find that info.

I considered using the "report post" function, but reading the caveats, it seems forbidden.

tricky 

Report post is the way to go. I've seen a few mods say that's the way to request thread moves.

tiger1964 

Thanks. Done.

I think Bogester's experience at roughly the same time as mine might indicate this could be a topic of interest to multiple forum members -- I just clicked not he wrong place to start a new topic.

Tempting to try to file down the washers (actually thick enough to be spacers) but suspect getting them uniform thickness would be nearly impossible. Yeah, a machine shop could probably do it but $$$.

merziac

Paging @cb400bill

cb400bill

Thread moved from C&V Sales to C&V.

davester

Early Campy downtube shifters came with flat outer washers while later ones came with convex/conical outer washers. I wonder if the levers themselves have different dimensions and you are trying to fit the more recent convex/conical-style outer washer set to an older lever set that came with flat outer washers?

tiger1964 

Perhaps; I wish I knew more... and a solution. That said, "shifters came with flat outer washers" would imply that the outboard recess on the lever casting would be shaped different for flat vs. convex outer washers. I have several pairs of just the levers here, all have a deep concave surface there implying intended use w/convex washers. Using the 3mm "spacer" on the back, leave about 1.8mm gap between lever and back plate. That looks odd to me, but how many of us scrutinize that particular dimension?

Also, I happen to have bands for banded-mount Campy levers here. Oddly, two bands, both single-side for RD only (I always wanted a cable-less FD, I've never acquired one, and presume I picked these bands up decades ago in anticipation). The spacer is integral and cannot be removed, as is the back plate. The spacer is, again only 2mm thick, and allows me to assemble a lever onto it and clearly engage the keying, even wirth the flex washer in place.

gugie 

@Andy_K gave me the proper procedure for repairing Crank Brothers pedals. One would think that something similar for Campy shift levers. I would think the C&V repair solution is to replace them with Retrofriction levers.

tiger1964 

Something I was thinking about, and am considering; then Mad Honk called and said the same thing... file/grind down the washers. He was diplomatic enough not to add "grow up". Still uncertain how many 1000ths off I can be from perfectly flat and the washers still work.

Ouch! But I see your point. That said, the bike is all-Campy, excepting SPD pedals.

Was waiting for a set to surface when I saw the Rivendell Silver Shifters on the C&V For Sale forum and grabbed those; just cannot get them to work, particularly the FD side where the return string is apparently stronger than the Campy NR FD return spring and nothing stops it from pulled down to inner chainring on it's own.

And despite trying to keep a close watch on the C&V For Sale forum, desirable stuff like Retrofrictions get claimed faster than a $50 De Rosa.

Alternatively, try another WTB and this time just specify Campy 2mm spacer washers.

davester

Perhaps I misstated that. The outer surface of the chrome washers were flat on the early shifters. I think the inner surfaces were convex. However, it may be that the convexity wasn't the same for the washers with an outside flat surface as for the later conical outside surface washers.

tiger1964 

OK, I get that! Seen shifters of a later date, the outermost 'washer' has an outer surface nearest the wing screw that is not so much convex as conical... yeah, seen those. This ain't that but a good guess.

Anyway, the smoothest NR setup for shifting I've encountered... and it's my wife's? Even on 42/52 with 14-28, even shifts to the 28-52 combo. Like velvet. How? Stole the 2mm back washers off my Masi, taking it out of service, to complete her bike (and she says I never give her flowers....)

Mad Honk 

[QUOTE=tiger1964;22113027]Something I was thinking about, and am considering; then Mad Honk called and said the same thing... file/grind down the washers. He was diplomatic enough not to add "grow up". Still uncertain how many 1000ths off I can be from perfectly flat and the washers still work?

tiger1964,
If the washers are a bit off center the only impact will be in the way the stop plates attach to the frame. The rest of the parts self center, so it should be of little concern. My solution of shortening the width of the washers is to: cut it down with an abrasive wheel or sanding wheel. The biggest problem with 50 year old parts is the un-obtainium part. Just think of hard it is to find the brass ball for the fuel flow in a 1909 updraft carburetor. Sometimes a modification of a newer part is needed to make the original work correctly again. And I am not above doing so. I have tried to order the nylon bushings for these shifters before. They must be ordered in quantities over 500 and a special order spec is required that increase the parts to over ten dollars per set of washers. And at an outlay of about $1K. How many of those would I have on hand a year from now? Smiles, MH

rhm

Seems to me there is a plastic washer in some LCD Suntour or Shimano stem shifters that we used to save, when bikes were scrapped, because they fit Campy shifters. Or is that just my imagination running away with me? I always figured when the shifter works right, it's assembled right. When assembling or adjusting it, be prepared to do whatever you have to do, to make it work right.

Mad Honk 

RHM,
All of the Suntour parts interchanged with the Campy. In fact I used a few sets of the Suntour down tube shifters on my race bikes. On the powershift levers, the thin washers could be used to replace the missing ones on GS Campy shifters. Your memory is just fine. Smiles, MH

tiger1964 

I think this is how I got into trouble in the first place. In another topic I had, when building up my Palo Alto with all Suntour Superbe over the winter, transitioning the Suntour DT levers which originally had a band mounting, onto the frame's Campy bosses, came up short on these spacers/washers, and I pirated them off my wife's Windsor thinking I could then replace them... then forgot.

I think I am heading to an all-of-the-above solution; first, modifying theses spacers, and then another WTB to -- eventually -- locate the OEM part needed.

Oddly, looking at these, I noticed that the inner hole and outer diameter are not concentric? It's definitely offset, my micrometer says about 0.4mm difference between the thinnest side and thickest (not to be confused with the thickness of the entire spacer). I did not expect that.

This September I will have been using Campy DT's for 50 years, and I am still learning things.

cudak888 

Pictures would definitely help. There'd be a better chance of figuring out whether the inner washer that's causing this confusion is original in the first place, and if you have the correct, chromed outer washers that the D-rings sit upon.

Just to clarify, we're talking about an early Nuovo set like the picture on the top, not the later version below it, right? Do all the parts match the early set, or is there a mish-mash?



Late w/plastic pressure plates:



Somewhere between these photos lies the answer, unless there's something wrong with your shifter boss (doubt it).

-Kurt

tiger1964 

Thanks for posting those photos, better than any I would come up with! 100% the early set for me; certainly the levers, and the flex washers, convex chrome washers and wing screws that sit outboard of the levers themselves.

That said, the inboard spacers that I just pirated off my Masi to get my wife's bike running are the off-clear color like in the photo #2, but they clearly fit; perhaps there was a transitional set? That particular set, the one currently on the Masi, was OEM (unless a previous owner changed them?) on my 1980 Palo Alto before I repurposed them... not sure when the changeover from "early" to "late" was but I could Imagine someone using up what's in the parts bin at the factory. Regardless, they fit just fine into the recess in the back off the "early" levers.

I once had a set of the later ones with the plastic convex washer outboard of the levers and was very unhappy with performance. YMMV.

cudak888 

Post a picture of the Masi's inboard spacers vs. the set that doesn't fit right.

With exception to the color (Delrin vs. nylon? Or both nylon?), I believe the the washer dimension should be identical for both eras of lever.

-Kurt

tiger1964 

So, now that I finally have my wife's bike back together, I'm supposed to take it apart for photos? I am not suicidal...

Anyway, d'ya think this is worth exploring? Campy washers in Boulder Twenty is eighteen more than I need, but still cheap.

cudak888 

It should be really easy to disassemble (and reassemble) one of these, even if the cable is installed and tensioned. D-ring off, pressure washer off, lever off, inner washer off. Probably one of the easiest jobs ever, and one of the advantages of C&V downtube shifters over the Brifter Bunch!

Plus, if the cable tension does give trouble, use your thumb to press the derailer inwards to slacken the chain. Or shift to the largest cog before undoing everything - then you'll have oodles of slack to work with.

20 of those washers for $6 plus shipping? It'll cost you more than that just in the time it'll take to put an ISO up which will get lost and forgotten in that pit of doom of a thread. Plus, you'll have oddles of these to trade or give to friends in future (which could buy you brownie points with the gods of bike karma ). I'd go for it.

-Kurt

Mad Honk 

Kurt,
Here is the picture of the elusive washer that tiger is looking for. Even though Campy never made the steel washer available for down tube braze on shifters. (they were all the nylon washers for braze on shifters).

All of the band on shifters were a one piece post with the washer cut into the post. Tiger said he wanted to use the steel washer set, and since Campy nor anyone else ever made them, I sent him a thicker steel washer and told him how to cut it down to size to work the way he wanted it to. I am starting to feel bad about sending him the parts to create what he asked for. Sad, MH

tiger1964 

All true, and I think I need to disassemble to fit the thin plastic sheathing to lubricate the cable guides anyway.

+1 but when I tried to order, there's a minimum purchase so I grabbed a couple of Cinelli seat post bolts to get me over the top... so, rather expensive washers.

Please don't! I appreciate the help! Anyway, my anti-plastic experience was for the later Campy levers with the plastic washers outboard of the lever -- really, not happy with that design. Not realizing that the earlier lever with the metal concave savers and flat fleet washers also used a plastic bushing inboard of the lever. Like I said, learning something new every day. What you sent got the lever set up and running and the washers I just ordered from Boulder Cycles get me over the top. I'm genuinely happy.