Random Tandem

I have a friend asking me about a the quality of a mid-1980s lugged aluminum frame he believes was made in Italy. Apparently, very light, but I have never ridden it to have a sense of the ride (and we are currently separated by a closed border due to COVID). The bike is like the one shown here: https://budgetbicyclectr.com/vintage...d-bicycle.html

Can anyone tell me about what the ride is like on this bike? I searched and could not find anything on past threads (but that may say more about my poor searching than what is to be found).

-Will

billytwosheds 

That's a lot of coin.

Is it actually a rebranded Alan?

https://www.bikeforums.net/20745518-post19.html

Could be a rare bird but unless your friend is a collector, that may not be the best choice for a rider. At least not at that price.

spank226

Lugged Aluminum Tomasso is a rebadged Alan brought it by Ten Speed Drive Imports (out of business now).

It is a "glued and screwed" aluminum lugged frame, meaning the lugs and the tubes were threaded plus they were also glued.

Back in the day, they were described as "lively" or "whippy", depending on your fervor for steel bikes of the same era.

The same frame/bike was also badged as a Guerciotti and, if you haven't guessed it, Ten Speed Drive was also the US Importer of Guerciotti bikes.

Bianchigirll 

$900 for a 30yo bonded Aluminum with tired 600 on it. That’s a big pass, especially since the cranks don’t match.

Random Tandem

It's not THAT bike, but one that is the same frame he already owns. He thinks I should like it, but we have not talked money (and that is not my concern, there is plenty of history of transactions to give me confidence). As for ride and durability, the material and method of aluminum construction makes me hesitant. I have never ridden an aluminum bike (not counting my Technium which has steel forks, stays and lugs) that felt like the kind of ride I enjoy on many steel and a few titanium bikes. I am not a rough rider, so I find I am okay with a pretty flexible frame (I like the ride on my 1974 Teledyne Titan), but I have found modern aluminum frames just seem like riding long distances is work. I am not familiar with Alans, so any other comments are welcome.

-Will

Salamandrine 

There's a reason lugged and bonded aluminum frames fell out of favor. Bonds fail. The lugs can crack. I wouldn't count on an 80s Alan as being something that could be ridden like a vintage steel bike. They aren't lifetime bikes.

With all the warnings out of the way, I really love Alan frames. They are things of beauty. You will want to inspect it in person. If the frame can be inspected before purchase and does not at present have any cracked lugs or loose joints, I'd consider it as something to add to the stable. The ride is much more flexible of course than a Cannondale or some other modern OS tubing Al frame. They definitely had their fans BITD.

spank226

I'm on the other end of the spectrum: If Sean Kelley can win several Tour de France green jerseys, World Championship medals, and several cobbled classics while riding a bonded, lugged standard diameter tubed aluminum frame, then they are ok by me. While I'll admit to having once had a similar fear of them potentially lacking durability, the sheer number of them that I've seen as survivors and that have been ridden HARD has put away my old fears.

I've never seen photos or known anyone to have broken an Alan or Vitus bonded aluminum frame, but I'm willing to be educated on this.

And, in fact, I'm actively looking for the "right" vitus 979 to add to my stable. I rode a friend of mine's bike back in the 1980s and was very surprised how great it road and I didn't find it whippy at all. Reason would have it that the Alan, which is not just glued like the Vitus but also threaded together, is a much better construction. I recall Alan also making cyclocross versions of their bonded aluminum frames.

As for bonded lugged frames: Trek built an EMPIRE on bonded and lugged aluminum (and carbon) frames. I would actually argue that true monocoque carbon frames are the ones that have fallen out of favor because quality is poop. And most major car manufacturers nowadays actually use bonded body panels. I cant say that yester-years' bonding agents are as good as today's bonding agents, but I have little concern for a bonded aluminum frame failing under my body weight.

joluja 

I kind of agree with everyone on this. I absolutely love the ride of my deceased Alan. It really was fabulous. Unfortunately, I cracked a seat lug at the 2019 Eroica and I was one of those people who thought it would never happen to me until it did!

Random Tandem

Getting the name spelling correct may have been a critical step! I think I understand when Italians use single and double "c", but "m" and "s" are outside my talents.
Thanks to all with your comments and assessments - I am persuaded by all, so left with no decision. On a previous purchase, I noted many comments that using a Teledyne Titan as a rider was foolhardy (too fragile), and I have been lucky so far, but I try to ride it on roads with which I am familiar, and keep it away from "off road". It seems like a Tommaso would be another weakling in the stable, but someone has to take on and love the weak and the sick...

-Will

kenhawkeye

I've owned a few Alans and a few rebadged Alans. In my experience, the problems with whip and stress are greater with frames over 54cm. As a price guide, in March, I sold a flawless Alan Super Record with full low mileage Campy SR group and Almarc bars for Ł900 ($1150 approx)

nomadmax 

Lug cracks on Alan bonded aluminum frames are pretty common.

scarlson 

Lots of broken Alans as seen above. That's the typical failure mode, fatigue crack on the head lug.
However, I've been looking for years to no avail, to try and find a broken Vitus that hasn't been actually abused. I found a likely candidate a couple years back, but it turned out the guy had tried to make it into a fixie, and messed up the chain tension (couldn't adjust it, vertical dropouts) so the chain pulled the frame apart by cyclically flexing it with great force. The Vitus "carbone" was a different story. There is documented evidence of one catastrophically failing.

The Vitus 979 was developed later and was more durable in spite of the lack of threading, mainly because Vitus used castings (the lugs) under compression (inside the tubes) where they are less likely to fail. This in contrast with AlAn's decision to use the castings in tension (holding the tubes in; put sidewards stress on a tube and you put tension stress on the lug), where they are more likely to fail. Just my simplistic view of things, but I've seen a few aluminum components fail in my day so I like to think I know how they work! This seems to be borne out by what we see.

spank226

Thank you for the education. I'm not surprised at the head tube failure at that location. Aluminum does have a finite life and can only take so many cycles before failure. I recall going through a bunch of 1" ball and cage headsets back in the 1980s because they would loosen and then dimple the lower races with hammering of the road surface. The "fix" back then was to remove the balls from the cage and add an extra ball so they all wouldn't index in the divots at the same time. But I digress...

There's an aluminum Bianchi for sale near me and it is NOT lugged and it has a crack in the same spot. So I'm not convinced it is a specific failing of lugged aluminum construction. But I concede it is a characteristic to look out for with Alan (and rebadged Alan) frames.




When I raced a Trek 2300 in Italy in the early / mid 1990s when most of my competition was still riding steel bikes, many would actually go out of their way to come over and tell me "There's no way that bike is going to stay together" or "No way I'd ride a bike that is glued together on these cobbles". When I started to get some positive results, a few actually went out of their way to give me COMPLIMENTS on the bike.

Random Tandem

So, I have the Tomasso (ALAN rebadge) now...

No cracks on any of the lugs and all of the tubes are well connected and in nice condition (one chainstay has a spot where the wheel has rubbed off the anodizing, but I believe this is just cosmetic). One of the cable guides on the top tube has been damaged and there are no decals (although the headlug and the fork crown are pantographed with "T"). My disappointment is that this frame is just too small for me, so I will soon be looking to pass it along. It was described to me at a 1985 ALAN-made Tomasso TA-5000 Record, which in the 10 Speed Direct catalog was to be sold with a Campagnolo Sprint groupset, but it had Japanese components when I received it. I am just posting these pix to feed the hungry eyes for classic aluminum frames.

-Will

kenhawkeye

This frame is an Alan Competizione judging by the seat lug. In 1985, on Record frames, the month and year were stamped in the seat tube about 6 inches below the lug. If it isn't, then I would email Alberto Falconi and he'll know the date from the serial number. I might have spare cable guides