Watts vs Watts/Kg on Zwift
01-18-22, 04:44 PM
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This topic is why I'm freeriding Rouvy now instead and will do my structured workouts in Zwift. They simply can't fix due to complexity, the group dynamics of a set of riders. The attempt to tame the "blob" is nice, but riders in real life take a lot longer to work way up road on a "yellow line law, or rule" situation where you can't jump center line and sprint to the front. Watch how fast riders whip to and fro in a Zwift blob, everytime this happens a new rider at a new higher power is on front. Real life, that front ride has to get out of the way for the next. The real life lag is what makes real life breakaways possible.
Also, the semi-infinite draft of a crowded Zwift world is comical. It's why Richmond flats is soooo crowded, easy po peasy XP given the speed you can get lapping that on a road bike.
IMO the solo Rouvy rides have been a LOT more realistic on pace versus effort.
Lastly, Zwift claims a CdA penalty on rider height and weight.........but it ain't realistic. The CdA for "large" riders is way way way too low and good. Meanwhile, at 70kg, I'm easily 1 to 2mph faster in a real life TT bike ride.
Not a big deal at all, but for me it was one realism breakage too much.
Also, the semi-infinite draft of a crowded Zwift world is comical. It's why Richmond flats is soooo crowded, easy po peasy XP given the speed you can get lapping that on a road bike.
IMO the solo Rouvy rides have been a LOT more realistic on pace versus effort.
Lastly, Zwift claims a CdA penalty on rider height and weight.........but it ain't realistic. The CdA for "large" riders is way way way too low and good. Meanwhile, at 70kg, I'm easily 1 to 2mph faster in a real life TT bike ride.
Not a big deal at all, but for me it was one realism breakage too much.
01-18-22, 06:43 PM
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Yeah, I prefer Rouvy for a realistic ride experience. But Zwift is fun if you don't take the racing seriously. I don't even bother with Zwift racing anymore, but enjoy some of the group rides and big fondo events.
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01-19-22, 08:52 AM
#28
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This sort of power comparison comes frequently. A very simple rule of thumb (which also applies in real life), is that:
- when two riders are riding at the same power (W), the lighter one is faster
- when two riders are riding at the same W/kg, the heavier one is faster
Very easy to verify with any online bike calculator.
- when two riders are riding at the same power (W), the lighter one is faster
- when two riders are riding at the same W/kg, the heavier one is faster
Very easy to verify with any online bike calculator.
- Rides at 125w (1.5 w/kg)
Does that mean that I should ride at 125w, which for me is 1.8 w/Kg, or at 1.5 w/kg, which for me is 104 watts?
Or some combo, such as 125 w on the flats and 1.5w/kg uphill?
01-19-22, 09:30 AM
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I think I will try a ride with Pace Partners today. Diesel Dan is listed as
Does that mean that I should ride at 125w, which for me is 1.8 w/Kg, or at 1.5 w/kg, which for me is 104 watts?
Or some combo, such as 125 w on the flats and 1.5w/kg uphill?
- Rides at 125w (1.5 w/kg)
Does that mean that I should ride at 125w, which for me is 1.8 w/Kg, or at 1.5 w/kg, which for me is 104 watts?
Or some combo, such as 125 w on the flats and 1.5w/kg uphill?
Ignoring the draft and other effects (such as CdA, etc)... on the flats, riding at 125w you will probably be moving faster than D Diesel but if you drop down to 104w they will eventually catch up with you since you're lighter than them so you'll find yourself riding somewhere in between that. Less power when climbing, more power when downhill.
Last edited by atwl77; 01-19-22 at 09:36 AM.
01-19-22, 12:11 PM
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i'm 70kg. when riding w diesel, I have to slow down on the climbs and pedal hard on the downhills. this implies Dan is big. constant wattage (or w/kg) doesn't stay tight. and if you blow out of the 'band' you have to start over on the drops multiplier and you won't get virtual kit that you don't like. which is also fine because its. just. a. game. dammit.
01-20-22, 03:45 PM
#31
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Does that mean that I should ride at 125w, which for me is 1.8 w/Kg, or at 1.5 w/kg, which for me is 104 watts?
Or some combo, such as 125 w on the flats and 1.5w/kg uphill?[/QUOTE]
I rode for about 45 minutes. 1.5 or 1.8 w/kg is a pretty narrow range, so yea...in there somewhere. Gotta figure the draft in there somewhere, so it is hard to say. 45 minutes (one album) at that pace was plenty for me.
Or some combo, such as 125 w on the flats and 1.5w/kg uphill?[/QUOTE]
I rode for about 45 minutes. 1.5 or 1.8 w/kg is a pretty narrow range, so yea...in there somewhere. Gotta figure the draft in there somewhere, so it is hard to say. 45 minutes (one album) at that pace was plenty for me.
01-26-22, 08:23 AM
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This post is timely, despite me joining it a bit late. I spent most of the fall just chilling on Zwift and watching the GCN videos while riding but then got back into the group rides with the start of the Tour and I am getting my butt kicked. Now I thought it would take a ride or two to get back into it but I have been riding harder since mid December and still finding it tough.
So I'm about 84kgs (185lbs) and in Zwift ride at about 230 watts to stay in the top 25%. On the flat routes I can maintain this for up to 20 kms but then as soon as we start to climb I drop big time and usually lose the group I'm in. Luckily those rides are big enough that the next group comes along quickly. After 20 km's I really start to fade and drop down to about 200 watts on average which then makes my over all ride about 205-210 average watts.
Hoping it gets a little easier by the time the Tour is over.
So I'm about 84kgs (185lbs) and in Zwift ride at about 230 watts to stay in the top 25%. On the flat routes I can maintain this for up to 20 kms but then as soon as we start to climb I drop big time and usually lose the group I'm in. Luckily those rides are big enough that the next group comes along quickly. After 20 km's I really start to fade and drop down to about 200 watts on average which then makes my over all ride about 205-210 average watts.
Hoping it gets a little easier by the time the Tour is over.
01-26-22, 08:53 AM
#33
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230 watts/84kg equals 2.7 W/Kg. For many, that is not very impressive. But I could not hang with that for very long. And no way could I sustain 230 watts anywhere.
That said, you would fit in very nicely IRL in our local club rides. But let's re group at the top.
That said, you would fit in very nicely IRL in our local club rides. But let's re group at the top.
01-26-22, 09:37 AM
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This post is timely, despite me joining it a bit late. I spent most of the fall just chilling on Zwift and watching the GCN videos while riding but then got back into the group rides with the start of the Tour and I am getting my butt kicked. Now I thought it would take a ride or two to get back into it but I have been riding harder since mid December and still finding it tough.
So I'm about 84kgs (185lbs) and in Zwift ride at about 230 watts to stay in the top 25%. On the flat routes I can maintain this for up to 20 kms but then as soon as we start to climb I drop big time and usually lose the group I'm in. Luckily those rides are big enough that the next group comes along quickly. After 20 km's I really start to fade and drop down to about 200 watts on average which then makes my over all ride about 205-210 average watts.
Hoping it gets a little easier by the time the Tour is over.
So I'm about 84kgs (185lbs) and in Zwift ride at about 230 watts to stay in the top 25%. On the flat routes I can maintain this for up to 20 kms but then as soon as we start to climb I drop big time and usually lose the group I'm in. Luckily those rides are big enough that the next group comes along quickly. After 20 km's I really start to fade and drop down to about 200 watts on average which then makes my over all ride about 205-210 average watts.
Hoping it gets a little easier by the time the Tour is over.
01-26-22, 09:53 AM
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LOL thanks, I am aware of that and that's why I join the C group rides mostly, though with this tour there's a big difference in distance between B&C so I have been joining some B rides. Maybe that's why I'm getting my butt kicked. Riding in the real world my wattage is much lower (cars, stop lights, wind, etc....) so would probably get dropped like a bad habit.
Pete Heski - yeah hills are my enemy and even the slightest incline for any distance puts me way back from where I started. I need to be putting out way over 3 W/Kg to keep up the same pace I'm riding on the flats and I just don't have that strength.
Pete Heski - yeah hills are my enemy and even the slightest incline for any distance puts me way back from where I started. I need to be putting out way over 3 W/Kg to keep up the same pace I'm riding on the flats and I just don't have that strength.
01-26-22, 09:55 AM
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Riding a trainer gives one plenty of time to think about useless stuff.
On a flat route, it seems that power output (watts) is way more relevant than W/Kg since you are not dragging weight up a hill. Just wind resistance, rolling resistance and other minor things. So, wouldn't it be interesting to see what other riders are putting out as they fly by?
I can change my listed weight to 10kg, which might help me uphill, but my pathetic 130 watts would still get me dropped on the flats. Rightly so.
On a flat route, it seems that power output (watts) is way more relevant than W/Kg since you are not dragging weight up a hill. Just wind resistance, rolling resistance and other minor things. So, wouldn't it be interesting to see what other riders are putting out as they fly by?
I can change my listed weight to 10kg, which might help me uphill, but my pathetic 130 watts would still get me dropped on the flats. Rightly so.
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01-26-22, 08:26 PM
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Generally for these "free-for-all" events I will ride at the pace I want, where eventually I'll end up in a group going roughly the same pace with me, and I'll just try to stick with this group for the rest of the ride (taking advantage of power-ups, where tactically possible, to stay within the group and account for discrepancies in pace on the climbs and descents).
Last edited by atwl77; 01-26-22 at 08:33 PM.
01-26-22, 08:27 PM
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I think I will try a ride with Pace Partners today. Diesel Dan is listed as
Does that mean that I should ride at 125w, which for me is 1.8 w/Kg, or at 1.5 w/kg, which for me is 104 watts?
Or some combo, such as 125 w on the flats and 1.5w/kg uphill?
- Rides at 125w (1.5 w/kg)
Does that mean that I should ride at 125w, which for me is 1.8 w/Kg, or at 1.5 w/kg, which for me is 104 watts?
Or some combo, such as 125 w on the flats and 1.5w/kg uphill?
01-27-22, 09:22 AM
#39
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That is a great video.
"According to Science," what I have learned is that I need a new Pinarello Dogma with DuraAce Di2 and carbon wheels. The red color will go great on Valentine's Day.
"According to Science," what I have learned is that I need a new Pinarello Dogma with DuraAce Di2 and carbon wheels. The red color will go great on Valentine's Day.
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01-27-22, 09:50 AM
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Exactly!
It also affects movement within a large group. Sometimes you find yourself having to go full gas for no apparent reason whatsoever, with no change in group pace or gradient. Then you suddenly surge forward and have to back off to avoid riding off the front. It happens mostly in large groups rather than small groups of 4 or 5 riders. I haven't really thought much about the dynamics of it, but I expect it's caused by the power fluctuations of the rider you happen to be following. So if they suddenly back off the gas in the middle of a pack you probably get stuck to them and have to put out a load of extra power just to go through them and back on to the wheel of someone who is pushing.
What I've learned from this is not to ride near the back end of a large Zwift group as any riders dropping back through the bunch will make your life hard work having to plough through all their "stickiness". It's much better to get up to the front end of the group and then sit on the second or third row. I find this approach makes drafting more consistent and less overall effort to stay with a fast paced group. Life at the back is painful in those groups and I think this "sticky" dynamic makes it even harder for guys who are struggling to stay with the group anyway. They basically end up stuck to each other as they are losing pace from the group. It took me a while to work this out. I would often sit toward the back of a big group and wonder why I was having to make massive efforts every time I overtook a wheel in front who was slowing slightly.
It also affects movement within a large group. Sometimes you find yourself having to go full gas for no apparent reason whatsoever, with no change in group pace or gradient. Then you suddenly surge forward and have to back off to avoid riding off the front. It happens mostly in large groups rather than small groups of 4 or 5 riders. I haven't really thought much about the dynamics of it, but I expect it's caused by the power fluctuations of the rider you happen to be following. So if they suddenly back off the gas in the middle of a pack you probably get stuck to them and have to put out a load of extra power just to go through them and back on to the wheel of someone who is pushing.
What I've learned from this is not to ride near the back end of a large Zwift group as any riders dropping back through the bunch will make your life hard work having to plough through all their "stickiness". It's much better to get up to the front end of the group and then sit on the second or third row. I find this approach makes drafting more consistent and less overall effort to stay with a fast paced group. Life at the back is painful in those groups and I think this "sticky" dynamic makes it even harder for guys who are struggling to stay with the group anyway. They basically end up stuck to each other as they are losing pace from the group. It took me a while to work this out. I would often sit toward the back of a big group and wonder why I was having to make massive efforts every time I overtook a wheel in front who was slowing slightly.
01-27-22, 09:53 AM
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I'd rather see W/kg and speed. Especially in a cat-limitted race it lets me see what sort of effort my competitors are putting out and lets me see speed differentials to know what I need to do to hook onto that group chasing me (as a bigger rider who likes to try to go for sprints, I often find myself off the front after a long, steep downhill or sprint segment - and I tend to get dropped eventually) and what it will take (if it's possible) to chase back onto the group I just got gapped of the back of.
01-27-22, 04:10 PM
#42
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Some other revelations from that video. I have a few choices:
Get stronger. I am working on that, but at age 65 and 5000 miles a year, I think this is just what I've got. I could do some high intensity intervals, gain 5 watts and have less fun.
Get lighter. I weigh about 144 pounds, so some room there, but not much. If that means giving up beer, I'd rather get dropped.
Get a lighter bike. Now we are talking! My Ti Lynskey is pretty light, but if I can buy my way into the A Group, let's do it! Probably have to spend $10,000 to lose 2 pounds. Hm...I can do that and still drink the beer. Might cost me a kitchen remodel though....
Or just forget all this B.S. and enjoy riding. Probably #4, but considering #3.
Get stronger. I am working on that, but at age 65 and 5000 miles a year, I think this is just what I've got. I could do some high intensity intervals, gain 5 watts and have less fun.
Get lighter. I weigh about 144 pounds, so some room there, but not much. If that means giving up beer, I'd rather get dropped.
Get a lighter bike. Now we are talking! My Ti Lynskey is pretty light, but if I can buy my way into the A Group, let's do it! Probably have to spend $10,000 to lose 2 pounds. Hm...I can do that and still drink the beer. Might cost me a kitchen remodel though....
Or just forget all this B.S. and enjoy riding. Probably #4, but considering #3.
01-27-22, 06:42 PM
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I have to agree with Alex on that video - too nerdy for me. I did always wonder why back in the 80's & 90's when Lance and crew ruled supreme, cyclists looked like beasts with massive power to drive them up through the mountains and along the sprints. Truly inspirational for a teenage boy like me who worshipped Arnie and Stallone on the big screen but then pro riders started to get skinnier and skinnier as the years went on.
With the research we now have as per that video, we can see that there is a balance to achieve to find maximum performance with a minimum amount of drag and mass so as to not slow things down. I guess that's why Egan Bernal is so successful due to his diminutive size but great strength.
I do not size up to either of those attributes so will hang out at the back of the pack.
With the research we now have as per that video, we can see that there is a balance to achieve to find maximum performance with a minimum amount of drag and mass so as to not slow things down. I guess that's why Egan Bernal is so successful due to his diminutive size but great strength.
I do not size up to either of those attributes so will hang out at the back of the pack.
01-27-22, 11:03 PM
#44
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I think I will try a ride with Pace Partners today. Diesel Dan is listed as
Does that mean that I should ride at 125w, which for me is 1.8 w/Kg, or at 1.5 w/kg, which for me is 104 watts?
Or some combo, such as 125 w on the flats and 1.5w/kg uphill?
- Rides at 125w (1.5 w/kg)
Does that mean that I should ride at 125w, which for me is 1.8 w/Kg, or at 1.5 w/kg, which for me is 104 watts?
Or some combo, such as 125 w on the flats and 1.5w/kg uphill?
You're probably going to need in the neighbourhood of 110W / 1.6 W/kg to stick with Dan on the flat, maybe a touch more, but as you go uphill you'll be able to back off towards that 104W.
As far as the draft - Dan Diesel is almost always in a big enough group that he is in the draft as well, so you don't get that advantage over him, or he gets the same draft advantage you do, whichever way you want to think about it.
With B. Brevet and A. Anquetil, the group is rarely big and there is almost never anyone in front of them - so you have the advantage of being in the draft when the pace partner isn't. This kind of makes Dan (and Coco Cadence @ 2.5 W/kg) a little tougher to ride with for their power than the other two.
01-28-22, 05:21 AM
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I did always wonder why back in the 80's & 90's when Lance and crew ruled supreme, cyclists looked like beasts with massive power to drive them up through the mountains and along the sprints. Truly inspirational for a teenage boy like me who worshipped Arnie and Stallone on the big screen but then pro riders started to get skinnier and skinnier as the years went on.
Interestingly, the lowest TdF winning BMI I can find is Bradley Wiggins at 19.1. He did look like Stick Man for sure that year!
Last edited by PeteHski; 01-28-22 at 05:25 AM.
01-28-22, 06:24 PM
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Tour de France winner's BMI
There were also plenty of lightweight riders in that era too. Pantani 57 kg, Hinault 62 kg, Delgardo 64 kg, Lemond 67 kg, Fignon 67 kg. Armstrong and Indurain were really outliers in the overall picture at 75 and 80 kg respectively. Pogacar at 66 kg is more in line with Lemond and Fignon. Also very similar in terms of their BMI.
Interestingly, the lowest TdF winning BMI I can find is Bradley Wiggins at 19.1. He did look like Stick Man for sure that year!
Interestingly, the lowest TdF winning BMI I can find is Bradley Wiggins at 19.1. He did look like Stick Man for sure that year!
It seems like Luis Ocana, the 1973 winner had a BMI close to Sir Wiggins.
graph from Alasair Rushworth built using R.
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02-10-22, 01:24 PM
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This is probably obvious to most of you but it was an "a-ha" moment for me as i was signing up for a make up TDZ event that I missed the other week. I just read "Double Draft will also be enabled—meaning the drafting effect riders receive will increase by 50% during the Tour." which explains why I was drafting like mad in the blob and able to get through the KMs way easier and faster than normal. It's natural to expect to use less watts when drafting in a peloton but I kept noticing is was so much more apparent during the tour rides than any previous group rides I've done.
I just assumed it was something to do with the new trainer I have!
I just assumed it was something to do with the new trainer I have!
02-10-22, 05:07 PM
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This is probably obvious to most of you but it was an "a-ha" moment for me as i was signing up for a make up TDZ event that I missed the other week. I just read "Double Draft will also be enabled—meaning the drafting effect riders receive will increase by 50% during the Tour." which explains why I was drafting like mad in the blob and able to get through the KMs way easier and faster than normal. It's natural to expect to use less watts when drafting in a peloton but I kept noticing is was so much more apparent during the tour rides than any previous group rides I've done.
I just assumed it was something to do with the new trainer I have!
I just assumed it was something to do with the new trainer I have!
