smd4

The "Monza" lettering is the same size, style, font, etc. as the "Cinelli" portion. It's equal--doesn't seem like a model, shop or team name.

iab

Monza has a blue outline. Cinelli has a black outline. They are not the same.

It certainly isn't a model. It could be some sort of deal like Altenberger or Bruggeman, but I don't know if we will ever know.

Drillium Dude 

Actually, if you look closely at the "N" in Cinelli you'll see the outline is also blue. But I agree with your assessment. The decals also appear to be rather thicker than the crest decal on the seat tube, which also might suggest a limited-run set for special circumstances - whatever those circumstances might be.

OP: super score! Glad you're taking it slow with the clean up and aren't going to take it too far. That's far too nice of a time capsule to go overboard on. Another vote to keep us updated with pictures as you move along in the process.

Also, I noted one small thing: the rear wheel quick release skewer has a Campagnolo nut (conical) but the front skewer has a black Delrin one. Someone here could probably help you out with finding a match

DD

John E

I am admittedly more than a bit biased, but I love the look of good road bikes of that era.

Whazzup with the bent-back Campag. downtube levers? My first Sieger had the same issue, only much more radically bent back. NOS units are essentially straight.

juvela

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there was an extended period where Campag shift levers were too narrow at the neck

eventually this was acknowledged and corrected

have never known the specific dates - our Campag experts are sure to have them...


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iab

Depends on which picture you look at. The Monza always looks blue, the Cinelli looks black or blue. Considering the crappy quality of the images, I think the Cinelli is black. Ken Wallace's Monza is Cinelli black, Monza blue. And every Cinelli I have ever witnessed is black. Then again, never say never.

I'd like the OP to chime in. I'd also like to see a pic of that RD.

merziac

Seems to me the Monza decals could or would be from a completely different batch, mix, ink, materials, time, evolving process, etc, etc, ad nauseam.

Even if from same maker, supplier, etc, they could age, fade, degrade differently and not look the same to begin with or later on.

Drillium Dude 

This pic, one which both color outlines can be compared, rather close up, too. Note the cleanest part of the "N" - the outline is clearly blue. I think what looks like black is actually dirt/grime making the blue darker:



Edit: What makes it hard to discern that the colors are the same is that the Monza graphic's keylines are just that little bit wider than those of the Cinelli graphic. This is pretty clear in the above photo - well, at least for a nit-picking, detail-oriented guy like me

DD

merziac

Agreed, age, fade, dirt, grime, time, never kind to old fragile things.

Vonruden

juvela

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321gojo -

wrt dating:

if you know the cycle's wheels to be original you will be able to get a date from the inner faces of a axle locknuts on the hubs -



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roadcrankr

Such a rare and unique treasure.
Those are Universal Model 51 brakes. If the 453949 on the calipers is inscribed on the quick-release arm, it would indicate from 1960 onward.
Absent that stamping, Universal produced those from about '55 to '59.
Another vote for a good close-up of the rear derailleur. Probably Gran Sport from the mid-50's, with the metal, non-toothed pulleys.
The front derailleur looks original, as well, and likely Gran Sport from the mid-50's. Campy did not create the Record version with pivoting arms until '58.
It's worth noting that Gran Sport was Campagnolo's top-of-the-line until '58.

smd4

Did Cinelli produce complete bikes back then, or just framesets that would be built to the buyer’s specifications?

juvela

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both were offered

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smd4

Then how can people take guesses as to the bike’s age based on the components?

juvela

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a most excellent observation on your part!



the short answer is probably something along the lines of "they find it fun to try/speculate"


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Drillium Dude 

Another take would be "educated guesses". There are some smart people around here, who have seen a lot, worked in the industry back in the day, and have had access to industry players back in the day, too. Quite often it is experience which informs speculation on this forum.

DD

Fahrenheit531 

Useful maybe? This was my favorite at the one-time-only classic bike show here in Tucson, so I made a point to post it. Same not-quite-identical decals, owner listed as 1961.















SO glad I posted them here at the time because while I knew as soon as I started this thread that I'd seen one, there is ZERO chance I could find the original files. Thanks BikeForums!

iab

Whether manufacturer supplied or owner supplied, components are components. They have characteristics when they were made, doesn't matter where they came.

As a rule of thumb, if a frame was built up by the owner, components tend to be newer than the frame as they can hang in the shop waiting for the owner.

All that said, you are right, dating something off of components is not the best method and is often wrong. The best you can do with this Cinelli is the downtube decal plus the headbadge plus the headlugs put it 1956-1960. It could be narrowed a bit more knowing if the headbadge is either 56mm or 51mm.

But knowing the age of the bike in general can tell you what components were likely original to the bike and which were "upgrades". It paints a full picture on the bike if you date the components.

juvela

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​​​​​​

wonder if the dropouts here may be Agrati

note the absence of the 3.0mm X .5 adjuster screws

appears to be the same on both sides


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321gojo

I will post closer detail pics of the decal after mild cleanup, definitely the same colors but the monza decal is 5-10 % bolder. I'll post pics of RD and other details when I've hit the 10 post mark.

321gojo

Thanks juvela. I removed the rear locknut and it's stamped CAMP 58. I will post pics of this and other details when I am aloud to.

Spaghetti Legs 

The one pictured at the show in Arizona jarred my memory and I’m sure it belongs to Ken (Patterson?), owner of the former Bisbee Bike Brothel. Here’s a pic I took ogling all the jewels there in 2020. He’s a nice guy, loves to talk bikes, and I’m sure he could provide useful info. I seem to recall him saying it’s one of very few, like single digit few.

Edit: Derp, Ken Wallace - right there on the sign in the previous post!

jdawginsc 

The bike is exquisite, whether the components match, they are cool. I hope you are in position to keep and ride it.

roadcrankr

Awesome, man. Hopefully the races and cones are not scored. That makes the hub super rare.
The front does not look like Campagnolo, which would be a shame.
Even finding a skewer with the "open C" on the Campagnolo inscription represents a herculean task.
Same for the "open C" shifters, although we wonder if somebody could straighten a bent one.