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Please Stop Being So Cheap!

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Please Stop Being So Cheap!

Old 06-26-22, 03:52 PM
  #1  
Kilroy1988 
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Please Stop Being So Cheap!

Hello,

This thread is related to the Appraisals forum but it seems appropriate to post it here since this is where most of the posters hang out. I don't meant to bash anyone, but I think as a community we are letting some folks down with a general disregard for the changing C&V bicyle market. I just want to ask members here to please at least do a little bit of research or back up claims of valuations for C&V bicycles from direct experience for the sake of the often uninitiated who are asking for our expert advice. I just had to step into a thread where a new member was asking about a Raleigh Portage that is clearly in excellent condition, and multiple members gave figures no higher than $400.

Valuation Request Raleigh Portage Tour 1986? - Bike Forums

All it takes is one quick eBay search to see that a bicycle that looks almost exactly the same as this JUST SOLD for $1,825 + shipping! And anyone who follows Raleigh Portage sales on the internet knows that is not atypical.

I've seen so many other examples such as this in the appraisal forum. We are doing a disservice to those asking for our collective wisdom on such matters by (mostly) lowballing estimates in an economy with rapid inflation and high demand for many classic bicycles. Some of these folks may be relying on our help to sell things and make ends meet or for other immediate needs and letting them think their bicycles are worth less than they are on the current market just because that's what "you would pay" is not a respectful thing to do. If you don't watch the market for a certain type (or in some cases exact model) of bicycle and don't have experience buying or selling them then you probably shouldn't provide your opinion...

Obviously, a lot of old bicycles are junk and not worth the price of putting tires and cables on them. If that's the case then it should still go without saying that a reasonable explanation of why that's so should be given to the asker based on the responder's experience with comparable bicycles.

-Gregory

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Old 06-26-22, 04:20 PM
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I'm thinking a lot of things, maybe too many to write, maybe more than is useful. I'll just say -- was this tone really necessary?

None of the posters you cite give their opinion in an effort to disrespect. You have specific knowledge about this bike, but at least one of the posters you cite sells thousands of items, bike-related and not, and is very systematic about extracting value and making a viable business.

I'm sure your advice was welcome and helpful, but the indignation is misplaced. I'll leave it there.
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Old 06-26-22, 04:25 PM
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Someone paid $1,800+ for a Portage??
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Old 06-26-22, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by noobinsf View Post
I'm sure your advice was welcome and helpful, but the indignation is misplaced.
Well I disagree. If I were to come into a forum and ask people for advice about how to fix a mechanical issue with my bicycle then I would consider it disrespectful if someone replied and actually did not know what they are talking about and offered unhelpful advice that led me to do something stupid. Don't reply if you don't know. The same goes for asking for someone to attach value to an object in an objective manner. If you don't have experience buying or selling or watching the market for a particular bicycle, it's easy enough not to reply. You might be costing someone hundreds of dollars because they trust your judgment.

Just because we all sit around here staring at old bicycles all the time and all have a threshold for what we're willing to pay for something doesn't make our opinion valuable in every particular case. I hardly ever respond to threads in the appraisals forum despite reading through loads of them - because in most cases they're not the type of bicycles I watch the market for and I'm not qualified!

-Gregory
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Old 06-26-22, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Vonruden View Post
Someone paid $1,800+ for a Portage??
Right, and I heard someone else paid $10,000 to have a steel frame made by someone just because it's got some dead guy's name on it. What's your point?
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Old 06-26-22, 04:35 PM
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1. Most posters have no interest in selling on ebay. If they do, that opens up higher values.

2. I have access to Terapeak, which gives a full year of eBay. sales history. That $1825 sale is an outlier. Next highest was $865, then $575. That seller also sold a set of Dura Ace 7400 brake levers for $200. Meanwhile, recent sales are about $60.....

3. If I were KING, I'd change the appraisal forum name to value OPINIONS. Thats all it is, and my figures are my opinion as well. Want an appraisal? Step 1, find a vintage bike appraiser. Step 2, pay them $50 to $100 for a real appraisal. What people get here are not appraisals, they are just opinions.

4. As far as sales, I've sold over 1,000 bicycles, most locally, some ebay. I always get more $$ on ebay. Depending on the bike, I can get 2X to 3X on eBay. Its a trade off between convenience and $$. eBay sales require sellers to pack and ship, pay about 20% in fees, and then you WILL get a 1099 the following January reporting your gross proceeds to the IRS. Still despite those factors, I end up with more on eBay. And in my case, the local market is quite poor. The good news is I can find valuable stuff at attractive prices locally. The bad news I cannot resell them locally. I just bought a 1989 Stumpjumper, in outstanding condition. It had been for sale locally for over FOUR months. I've been avoiding it, but I finally succumbed. I would not post the price here as most would not believe it. I paid full asking price by the way....

4. FWIW, a very similar 1989 Stumpy just sold on ebay for $1200. Does anyone think it is worth that much?

5. The last thing you don't see on ebay is time. How long was the item for sale? Was it days, weeks, months or even years?


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Old 06-26-22, 04:40 PM
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So many variables, location number one. Where I’m at I can get more out of a Trek 5200 than an 80’s DeRosa or Colnago.
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Old 06-26-22, 04:41 PM
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If some one does not like the opinion, they can look elsewhere. Let the seller or buyer do their own research for value. I have not seen anyone giving an evaluation make the statement that they are an expert at evaluating anything. Evaluation is opinion, not fact. I am sure you have heard what is said about opinions and a'holes. No one is being dis-serviced and respect has nothing to do with it. Just my OPINION.
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Old 06-26-22, 04:42 PM
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I think we have to stop thinking about bike values in absolutes. Ebay is the last point of reference I would use. This forum is a savvy group of bike geeks....hands up everyone who would pay a grand for a production Raleigh without some special pedigree? Pas de moi.

Id like $2K for my '70 Cinelli B in 8/10 condition but I don't think I'll get it. To be fair I haven't tried.
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Old 06-26-22, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by wrk101 View Post
1. Most posters have no interest in selling on ebay. If they do, that opens up higher values.

2. I have access to Terapeak, which gives a full year of sales history. That $1825 sale is an outlier. Next highest was $865, then $575. That seller also sold a set of Dura Ace 7400 brake levers for $200. Meanwhile, recent sales are about $60.....
Did you ask if they were interested in selling on eBay? Did you mention that it might be worth a lot more? I missed that part if so.

I also have access to Terapeak and you'll notice the $875 is the same bicycle as the $575 (which apparently didn't actually sell earlier in the year) and that the almost total lack of Raleigh Portages in the past year is exactly why they're so hot on the eBay market. I've been watching them for several years and numerous complete bicycles have sold for over $1,000 and as I said, I've even seen a large frameset sell for that much.

I don't think anything I wrote in my initial post here is not reasonable. If you don't know the market for a particular bicycle why would you post in a valuation thread about it?

Originally Posted by clubman View Post
I think we have to stop thinking about bike values in absolutes. Ebay is the last point of reference I would use. This forum is a savvy group of bike geeks....hands up everyone who would pay a grand for a production Raleigh without some special pedigree? Pas de moi.
How about the first and only proper 650b touring rig produced by Raleigh that only show up in good condition on eBay 1-2 times per year during a period when classic 650b bicycles are all the rage? Not enough for you? Well, that's why the people willing to sell on eBay get the big bucks, I guess!

-Gregory
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Old 06-26-22, 04:49 PM
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I think it's not about the logic, it's about the tone. We can't be strident about anything these days.
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Old 06-26-22, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by delbiker1 View Post
If some one does not like the opinion, they can look elsewhere. Let the seller or buyer do their own research for value. I have not seen anyone giving an evaluation make the statement that they are an expert at evaluating anything. Evaluation is opinion, not fact. I am sure you have heard what is said about opinions and a'holes. No one is being dis-serviced and respect has nothing to do with it. Just my OPINION.
I'm sorry, but people actually get paid to evaluate prices for all kinds of things, from real estate to automobiles to antiques. It's a profession and a proper evaluation is much more than "an opinion" when it comes down to the fact that said evaluation can affect the amount of money someone gets for something or create ripples in the market. The C&V Appraisals forum is a great place for people with little knowledge of bicycles to come and ask for advice from knowledgeable collectors and purveyors, and I for one only provide my "opinion" when I have a valid reason to make a suggestion of value that may actually translate into a real transaction for someone else. That's the respect part.

-Gregory
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Old 06-26-22, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by clubman View Post
I think it's not about the logic, it's about the tone. We can't be strident about anything these days.
I'm young and dumb and want to change the world. C'est la vie!
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Old 06-26-22, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by wrk101 View Post
3. If I were KING, I'd change the appraisal forum name to value OPINIONS. Thats all it is, and my figures are my opinion as well. Want an appraisal? Step 1, find a vintage bike appraiser. Step 2, pay them $50 to $100 for a real appraisal. What people get here are not appraisals, they are just opinions.

4. FWIW, a very similar 1989 Stumpy just sold on ebay for $1200. Does anyone think it is worth that much?

5. The last thing you don't see on ebay is time. How long was the item for sale? Was it days, weeks, months or even years?
To address the rest of your points, sir:

3) If I were KING, I would do away with that forum completely. I suppose it is too much to expect that such a public place could ever be held to reasonable standards.

4) It probably is to someone if that's what got paid.

5) That should be something you state when you present your opinion about the value of a bicycle if you want to respect the potential buyer/seller asking for assistance. Maybe they have months or years to sell it? Maybe they need fast cash. I always attempt to address whether or not the values stated in my responses are based on the fact that one might have to wait or not to get such an amount. If they don't say so then I shouldn't assume one way or the other.

By the way, the Portage that just sold for $1,825 was listed last week.

-Gregory

Last edited by Kilroy1988; 06-26-22 at 05:04 PM.
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Old 06-26-22, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Kilroy1988 View Post
3) If I were KING, I would do away with that forum completely.
That forum was started as regular C&V forum was inundated with people asking what their old bike was worth. There were complaints all the time about how it was clogging up the C&V forum. C&V Appraisals isn't going anywhere.
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Old 06-26-22, 05:21 PM
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This will be shut down by the mods in 3, 2, .....
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Old 06-26-22, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by wrk101 View Post
4. FWIW, a very similar 1989 Stumpy just sold on ebay for $1200. Does anyone think it is worth that much?
Yes. Considering someone paid that amount.

But many of the "valuations" in the OP's thread are what the poster would pay for the item, which is an entirely worthless opinion, let alone appraisal. If all you (not necessarily you in particular) have is a ****** opinion, keep it to yourself. Pretty much why you won't see me post in that forum.

If you do take the time to post, then don't do it half-assed. Explain FBM won't get you top dollar and patience can get you more money. On the couplethree valuations I have done, it is always a range depending selling format and how long one is willing to wait. clubman could $2K for their B if put on ebay and willing wait 6-12 months. But they could get $800 in about 8 seconds on FBM. Let the seller decide the route.
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Old 06-26-22, 05:48 PM
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When you buy a house and need a mortgage, an appraisal is done. Comps are done, the market sets the value. Although there's much whinging about eBay, it's the biggest market that we can actually see the actual sales price.

Our C&V appraisal forum should be taken with a grain of salt. Bikes put up for sale here are usually at a discount from what one could get at the big auction site, but less hassle, and there's confidence that the sale will go through with no issues.
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Old 06-26-22, 06:21 PM
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Having sold off a fair amount of bikes locally the past couple of years I'm not seeing a lot of value in the old bikes anymore. Even with an itemized breakdown of all the part upgrade, miles since upgrade, etc, I maybe see 50% what I have in it.

So yeah, I'm probably going to give cheap estimate opinion if I chime in on the appraisal area. That's ever tempering it with what I'd pay which is usually too much if I want it. I don't see anyone acting in bad faith there and really, it's nothing official.

Even more modern stuff just isn't getting money. Got the second XL Super up locally for awhile now. Dang near mint, 235 miles since built, $3586 into it not counting tax, shipping, labor and yet still no real interest at $2250.

Add in the Spica that's been listed here quite awhile for a good price yet as of last week still hadn't sold. If someone tried to value a Giordana here I'd give them a cheap quote all day long despite my experience with how well they ride and are built. I don't see or get the large value numbers some post myself a lot of the time.
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Old 06-26-22, 06:26 PM
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I didn't post in the Raleigh thread but was thinking a nice used version would be in the $250 range and maybe twice that for condition. That the market will pay more is a bonus, but like mentioned, they would have to sit on it. I guess the problem with asking in here is you have people that have ridden 100's of bikes and they consider ride quality and components before collectability.
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Old 06-26-22, 06:51 PM
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I donít pretend to know values in absolute terms, just what I see on EBay, and here on BF.

in fact, I donít think there are any absolute valuations. If the right buyer is looking at the right time and you have the right bike, kismet can occur.

However, the fact that I have seen nearly identical bikes/frames go for complete different amounts on EBay is pretty telling.

i would imagine the bike in question could get $400 or $900 or $1800. Depends on the moment in time. Three completely disparate comps donít make for a good valuation.
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Old 06-26-22, 09:05 PM
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Kind of like certain Bridgestone models.
the reputation exceeds the product.
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Old 06-26-22, 09:31 PM
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I always thought an internet forum was a place to post your opinion.
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Old 06-27-22, 02:53 AM
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Wow! I need to sell on eBay more if those are the prices one can achieve! What's a small eBay fee and the hassle of shipping for an extra +500% more than what I'd make off selling locally?!
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Old 06-27-22, 04:27 AM
  #25  
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I was one of those that offered an opinion in the Raleigh thread. I think my opinion was on the lower end of the others, but it was based on my location and what I would want to pay. The OP of the Raleigh thread did not mention if they were in the position of buyer or seller. If they were a seller, I think their hopes would be put too high thinking they would get close to two grand for that bike as it would take some work to get it into the condition of the eBay bike the OP of this thread cited. On the flip side, as a buyer, they may be apt to spend more than necessary. I only offered my opinion as an Internet stranger for an Asian built Raleigh from the 80s based on my wants and location. Had the bike been a jewel from Italy and from a respected frame builder with high end components, I would have abstained.
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