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Potential New Velodrome in Wilmington, DE?

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Potential New Velodrome in Wilmington, DE?

Old 11-07-17, 09:03 AM
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spartanKid
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Potential New Velodrome in Wilmington, DE?

I just became aware of this today. Any Delaware residents have any more info about this?

The city parks apparently support the plan, but they need better confirmation of attendance. If you're a Mid-Atlantic/Philly/Baltimore/DC/NoVa cyclist, please fill out this google doc!

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1F...qEa9w/viewform


Here is a facebook group for the velodrome:

https://www.facebook.com/New-Castle-...3968194896681/
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Old 11-07-17, 09:36 AM
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@1incpa to the courtesy phone...
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Old 11-07-17, 10:23 AM
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It's true. We figured we'd give it a shot.
Filling out our survey would be a big help.
I'll fill you all in on more details when I'm not fat fingering on a phone.

PI
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Old 11-07-17, 06:12 PM
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So here's the story...

Beginning of last summer I was riding my bike through the park about a mile from my house. I decided to stop in the park office and see if they were receptive to the idea of a velodrome in the park. After explaining what a velodrome is, the assistant superintendent seemed receptive to the idea and said to submit a proposal.

So about a month and a half ago I finally got off my butt and wrote up a proposal. It started out as a 2 page letter and, with the help of my wife and a friend, turned into a 16 page document with charts, graphs and pictures.

We emailed it to the park superintendent and set up a meeting. The 3 of us met with the super and his assistant, fully expecting to get laughed out of his office. Not only didn't that happen, they seemed to love the idea. So they forwarded our proposal up the chain and the next step is to meet with the state people. The thing they have asked for before we meet is an estimation of usage. That's where the survey comes in. In addition to the local clubs and teams, we're also trying to get the local schools involved. An interscholastic track racing league would be pretty awesome!

Here's what we're looking to build: At first, we were looking at a 166m track, but after conversations with people more experienced than me (Thanks @queerpunk) we've decided that a 200 is better, and if we can get enough money for it, a 250 would be ideal. We're using the Bloomer Park track as our model as the setting is similar, and there are some features there that we like. A future plan, if the track revenue can pay for it, is a cover. Somethin similar to what they did here: https://www.google.com/search?q=V%C3..._nWHnAp14rzRM:

I've been hesitant to have this go public until we had something definite. There have been a lot of stories of failed attempts in the recent past, and I didn't want this to be one of them. But we're at a point now where we need the public's support in order to make it happen.

So, there you have it. Questions and comments are welcomed!

PI
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Old 11-07-17, 06:50 PM
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Glad that you've gotten so far! Congrats!

Why a 200? I'd suggest that the minimum be 250M if you want to host big events. And I'm sure that the prospect of big events (Elite/Masters/JR nationals, maybe a World Cup, etc...) is in your proposal.

The idea of, "Well, a velodrome is a velodrome be it 166, 200, or 250M." is not true. A 250M track is a lot more attractive and I would imagine worth the extra expense. Basically, if you are gonna do it, go for a standard 250m then settle for a 200m.

Last edited by carleton; 11-07-17 at 06:59 PM.
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Old 11-07-17, 07:20 PM
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A 200m velodrome is fine for international competition. The UCI Center in Switzerland is 200m and has hosted international level events. The difference in riding a 200m vs 250m is much smaller than 250 vs 333, or even between 166 vs 200. For a grassroots track that is most likely going to be crowdfunded, then 200m is ideal. Barring Madisons and Points Races, it's also easier and more inviting for spectators to watch on a smaller track.
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Old 11-07-17, 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Glad that you've gotten so far! Congrats!

Why a 200? I'd suggest that the minimum be 250M if you want to host big events. And I'm sure that the prospect of big events (Elite/Masters/JR nationals, maybe a World Cup, etc...) is in your proposal.

The idea of, "Well, a velodrome is a velodrome be it 166, 200, or 250M." is not true. A 250M track is a lot more attractive and I would imagine worth the extra expense. Basically, if you are gonna do it, go for a standard 250m then settle for a 200m.
I agree with you. 250's best, but 200 is the minimum best. Apparently T-Town was built as a 333 to be able to function as a community facility - honestly, getting new riders to brave a 250 is tough.

Two other concerns about ideal size: money, and raceability. Tracks get so much more expensive with size. And, I think that if one builds a velodrome, it's best to not just build a community facility, but also one that can tap into the national scene: a track for everyone from Cat 5 to 1. While hosting Nats would be nice, I'd say it's more important to just be able to support elite racing - attract people from different tracks to a midsize, regional or national event.

And IMO, the smallest track that elite racing can reasonably be done on is a 200m. That's kind of a "come at me bro" statement but I have issues with the recent crop of 166 tracks, which I think are great tracks for Cat 3s but not for many others.
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Old 11-07-17, 07:54 PM
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Can we get 2018 Madison Nationals on the calendar for this track?

Sorry, too soon?
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Old 11-07-17, 10:36 PM
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Originally Posted by spartanKid View Post
This is what I've heard about T-town as well. Its 28 deg banking is even slightly less than similar tracks like 7-11 (33 deg).

Anyone know what the "shallowest" turn a 250 can have? Most seem to be in the ~40-45 deg range, but could it be made more like 35 to make it a bit more friendly to new rider, but still the preferred size for major competitions? Or does making a 250 with a shallower banking ruin the elite racing appeal?
13 degrees as evidenced by the Win-Del track in southern Ontario (Windham Center).



This is where I learned to ride. Maximum speed of 55k/h in the sprinters lane, about 58 or so above it, otherwise you scraped your left pedal.

Fun fact: I once got ridden off the track by someone after the penultimate sprint in a points race (Juniors and Masters) in turn 1 by a fit, but new to the track Masters racer. Thank god for no rails here. I rode off the track, down and around the outside of the "berm", around the bleachers in the backstraight, and re-entered the back of the race going into turn 3 and just kept the momentum and adrenaline going by soloing around the pack.

That's my brag for this group.

Last edited by taras0000; 11-07-17 at 10:51 PM.
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Old 11-07-17, 10:42 PM
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Originally Posted by spartanKid View Post
This is what I've heard about T-town as well. Its 28 deg banking is even slightly less than similar tracks like 7-11 (33 deg).

Anyone know what the "shallowest" turn a 250 can have? Most seem to be in the ~40-45 deg range, but could it be made more like 35 to make it a bit more friendly to new rider, but still the preferred size for major competitions? Or does making a 250 with a shallower banking ruin the elite racing appeal?
I suggest you look at the York, UK, Velodrome. It is outdoor 250m with 30 degree banking. I visited it a year ago (but did not get to ride because of rain). It is asphalt so it should be weather proof, relatively low cost to build, and easy to maintain. Building a velodrome with steeper concrete/asphalt bankings gets difficult. Possibility not a great configuration for elite level racing although the tarmac may make for a slow Velodrome.
When I visited infra-structure consisted of a mobile home type building (other facilities including gym not too far away).
https://www.york-sport.com/cycling/york-sport-veldrome/
https://www.york.ac.uk/campus-invest...cts/velodrome/
https://www.york.ac.uk/news-and-even...014/velodrome/ [States cost was 1.1 million pounds UK].

Aerial view on google maps UK https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/...8!4d-1.0181866
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Old 11-07-17, 10:55 PM
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Originally Posted by spartanKid View Post
This is what I've heard about T-town as well. Its 28 deg banking is even slightly less than similar tracks like 7-11 (33 deg).

Anyone know what the "shallowest" turn a 250 can have? Most seem to be in the ~40-45 deg range, but could it be made more like 35 to make it a bit more friendly to new rider, but still the preferred size for major competitions? Or does making a 250 with a shallower banking ruin the elite racing appeal?
I believe that the banking of the turn is related to the radius of the turn more so than the length of the track. The speeds that are expected on the track are to be considered, too.

DLV is cigar-shaped. Long straights and tight turns. Imagine if you had a standard 250M track like LA and lengthened the straights to make it a 333m track. That's what DLV sorta is.

DLV is a 327M track and it has 36 or 37 degree turns...and ideally they should be more steep. The radius of the turns is so tight that the turn isn't steep enough to maintain neutral steering at speeds over 32mph. The turns should be maybe 40 degrees.

Anyway...so I write all of that to write this. To make a shallow 250M track, you have to make the turns gradual and not tight. That means the track will be round or round-ish...like TTown or Colorado Springs and maybe Boulder, but I can't really say as I haven't visited there yet.
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Old 11-08-17, 01:57 AM
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It really sucks when a track's banking doesn't match it's length/radius. I got spoiled by beginning my track "career" in Japan, where every track is optimal in terms of banking. Then I moved back to San Francisco and I never got along with Hellyer, as it's a 335m(?) with a max banking of 23˚. I was used to riding 400's with 33˚, 333's with 35˚, and 250's with 45˚. I think the banking is only scary for a couple of laps, then you get it, and then you enjoy it. Keep it steep if you build it!
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Old 11-08-17, 02:51 AM
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Originally Posted by taras0000 View Post
Fun fact: I once got ridden off the track by someone after the penultimate sprint in a points race (Juniors and Masters) in turn 1 by a fit, but new to the track Masters racer. Thank god for no rails here. I rode off the track, down and around the outside of the "berm", around the bleachers in the backstraight, and re-entered the back of the race going into turn 3 and just kept the momentum and adrenaline going by soloing around the pack.

That's my brag for this group.
I missed this. Awesome! Hahahaha
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Old 11-08-17, 04:45 AM
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Glad that you've gotten so far! Congrats!

Why a 200? I'd suggest that the minimum be 250M if you want to host big events. And I'm sure that the prospect of big events (Elite/Masters/JR nationals, maybe a World Cup, etc...) is in your proposal.
I was expecting this response. It all depends on the budget. As other have stated, a 250 is much more expensive than a 200. And the prospect of big events is not in our proposal. Remember; I had to explain to the park guys what a velodrome is. They're more concerned with community involvement than getting pros to race there. If in the end, we can host nationals and other big events, that would be great, but growing the track racing community is the main focus.

Whatever the track length, the banking will match the turn radius. Like QP says, this track should be as good for cat 5's as it is for 1's. I would be pretty heartbroken if we managed to pull this off only to find that the track is only good for a certain level of racer.

We're still a long way off . So yea, I think planning next years Madison Nationals here is a bit premature. Sorry VanceMac.

That is an awesome race story Taras! I had something similar happen at Kissena; I came around the front to attack going into turn 3 and glanced over my shoulder to see if anyone came with me. I ended up shooting down the track onto the (muddy) infield. I rode across and rejoined the group coming out of turn 4. At the end of the day I was the only one with mud on their bike. Kissena doesn't ride anything like T-Town!

This conversation is very helpful to me, as I only have experience racing at T-Town, and 1 muddy experience at Kissena. So if there's any more anyone would like to share, please do!

And thanks to spartanKid for bringing this up!

PI
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Old 11-08-17, 08:09 AM
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200M is the happy middle. Bloomer Park is a good track and rides well. I rode the same design in Cleveland on their 166M and it is harder to get up to speed, the tighter turns and banking make slow speed maneuvers a little unnatural. Cleveland does have a great community around the track which is promising and shows that dedicated people will show up for a steep track. The 200M design is smoother and feels much more "correct" for bike handling.
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Old 11-08-17, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by spartanKid View Post
This is what I've heard about T-town as well. Its 28 deg banking is even slightly less than similar tracks like 7-11 (33 deg).

Anyone know what the "shallowest" turn a 250 can have? Most seem to be in the ~40-45 deg range, but could it be made more like 35 to make it a bit more friendly to new rider, but still the preferred size for major competitions? Or does making a 250 with a shallower banking ruin the elite racing appeal?
I think Encino is 28 degrees. I know it is shallower than Colorado Springs. It is very easy to ride, most people have a lot of fun on it.
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Old 11-08-17, 02:25 PM
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Maybe reach out to the folks at Rock Hill about this. They've been tracking visitors, participation, and hotel/motel tax revenue/visitor spending since they opened the track about five years ago.

You could use it as an example for your case.
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Old 11-08-17, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by topflightpro View Post
Maybe reach out to the folks at Rock Hill about this. They've been tracking visitors, participation, and hotel/motel tax revenue/visitor spending since they opened the track about five years ago.

You could use it as an example for your case.
Thanks for this!
That kind of info would go a long way with the state! I'll be sure and reach out to them.

PI
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Old 11-09-17, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by rensho3 View Post
I think Encino is 28 degrees. I know it is shallower than Colorado Springs. It is very easy to ride, most people have a lot of fun on it.
Hi, rensho3! Encino is easy to ride, it's quite a contrast as a 250 to VSC. The banking is only slightly steeper than Hellyer, so slight the difference isn't noticeable, at least to me. It's not intimidating and it has a really homey, funky vibe!
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Old 11-09-17, 10:36 PM
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thats cool. still no new word about new haven, ct New Haven group eyes multi-sports complex, professional World Cycling League franchise for city - New Haven Register
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