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Track Cycling World Cup

Old 03-05-18, 12:24 PM
  #151  
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Originally Posted by rensho3 View Post
I ran sponges/pads for UCI Master Worlds in LA last year. We were told to put the sponges about 3" off of the cote. It was explained to me that it made riding on the blue impossible, but you could still be below the black line without a pedal hitting the sponge. Otherwise you can't ride below the black line if the sponges are set right on the edge. Since it is only the cote that is forbidden, this makes sense. And yes, it will affect the times if you manage to ride below the black line at all times.
interesting, makes sense when you consider that everything above the cote is technically fair game. (and riding on the cote itself would be slower)

From a mental standpoint it might be slightly advantageous as well, you could ride tighter to the black line without as much worry.
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Old 03-05-18, 08:03 PM
  #152  
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Uau... - it's portuguese.. :-)
just add the www etc

facebook.com/JeffreyHooglandNL/videos/1417452288382002/
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Old 03-05-18, 08:42 PM
  #153  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
I'm not a pursuiter by any means, but I've seen deliberate path techniques where a rider will:
- Ride wide of the black line down the straights, and
- Ride under the black line in the turns


My guess is that this helps mitigate the speed losses in the turns by making the path less cigar-shaped and more oval shaped.

Marginal gains.

Having the pads further inside, off the track helps even more.

On a related note, I think that riding a great line is often the difference between winning and losing.
This is known as the water-line of the track. Basically if you ran a 360 degree laser level around the track, this would be an average linebiyh above and below the black. For those riders who don't want to gain Any elevation.
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Old 03-05-18, 09:10 PM
  #154  
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Originally Posted by Clythio View Post
Uau... - it's portuguese.. :-)
just add the www etc

facebook.com/JeffreyHooglandNL/videos/1417452288382002/

Thanks! I didn't get to see the ride.

I once heard a roadie comment, "It's only 4 laps. How hard can it be?"

I don't speak Dutch (?). But, there is a point in the video when Hoogland collapses motionless on the ground and the commentator says, what I interpret to be, "This is the Kilometer."



That pretty much sums it up.

It's a brutal event. And if you do it right, it'll make you swear-off track racing for life


It's a shame that the Time Trial and the Individual Pursuit are no longer Olympic events. It's evident by this week that progression is still being made in the events and athletes still care about them.

Originally Posted by taras0000 View Post
This is known as the water-line of the track. Basically if you ran a 360 degree laser level around the track, this would be an average linebiyh above and below the black. For those riders who don't want to gain Any elevation.
Ha. I've heard that term before in this context. But, I assumed that all properly designed tracks* had the black line at that point and this technique still applies.


*DLV is an exception, as it literally has an uphill straight and a downhill straight (lol). It's a 100w difference for me to maintain the same warmup pace on the two.

Last edited by carleton; 03-05-18 at 09:23 PM.
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Old 03-05-18, 10:34 PM
  #155  
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Nope. Most tracks have the bottom of the Cote d'Azur as level. So there can be quite a variance in elevation on the black line.
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Old 03-05-18, 10:39 PM
  #156  
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Bring back the kilo IOC!

There's not much kilo racing here bar state and national champs, which I find a bit sad as it would probably be the event I'd suit best, but it's a tough mistress
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Old 03-05-18, 10:49 PM
  #157  
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Originally Posted by taras0000 View Post
Nope. Most tracks have the bottom of the Cote d'Azur as level. So there can be quite a variance in elevation on the black line.
"zero bubble" pole lane concept.
www
nadovich.com/chris/track/vdrome01.gif

more on
www
nadovich.com/chris/track/

Zero-bubble pole line
Optimized Asymmetrical Superelevation
Cornu Spiral Transitions
Twisted, Radius-Cupped Panel Segments

Sorry it's out of post subject. Naval Architect, here..
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Old 03-06-18, 12:55 AM
  #158  
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Watched an upload of the points race without sound. Cameron Meyer is a beast.
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Old 03-06-18, 01:09 AM
  #159  
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Originally Posted by Clythio View Post
"zero bubble" pole lane concept.
www
nadovich.com/chris/track/vdrome01.gif

more on
www
nadovich.com/chris/track/

Zero-bubble pole line
Optimized Asymmetrical Superelevation
Cornu Spiral Transitions
Twisted, Radius-Cupped Panel Segments

Sorry it's out of post subject. Naval Architect, here..
Thanks!

I've always wondered, should tracks by symmetrical (turns 1, 2, 3, and 4 being the same) even though we only ride in one direction? Would there be any benefit to having turns entry turns 1 & 3 having an "entry gradation" and exit turns 2 & 4 having a "exit gradation"?

I'm not asserting that they should, but just wondering if there would be any benefits.
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Old 03-06-18, 02:42 AM
  #160  
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Originally Posted by Clythio View Post
"zero bubble" pole lane concept.
www
nadovich.com/chris/track/vdrome01.gif

more on
www
nadovich.com/chris/track/

Zero-bubble pole line
Optimized Asymmetrical Superelevation
Cornu Spiral Transitions
Twisted, Radius-Cupped Panel Segments

Sorry it's out of post subject. Naval Architect, here..
I've ridden this track many times. The Builder claims world class performance (it was at one time) at a cost savings, there are many faster tracks, built prior to this one, and after this one. If you ask me, to build a "panel track" like this one makes for a slower track. Also, the claim of "every panel is unique, no two panels are alike" is stupid. Turns 1 and 3 should be identical, as should turns 2 and 4. There is a lot of marketing speak on the builder's site that are not unique to their construction principles. At the same time, the things they tout in their design doesn't necessarily make for a faster track, or one that is easier to ride compared to other tracks.

Tracks have used some form of easement curve for decades. Whether they be Cornu Spirals, Euler curves, or based on a proprietary mathematical relationship, there is nothing new here.

And a zero bubble pole hasn't been proven faster at all. In fact, I don't think it really matters much, especially since most riders will naturally drift out a little on the straights, and hold, or dip below the black in the banks, naturally cancelling this feature out. Because of this I would actually think this "feature" would be slower as it now forces a rider to perfectly ride the black the whole time.

And the twisted, and cupped panel segments? This would happen to any piece of board that is affixed to a sufficiently sturdy frame, simply because it would have to conform to it when attached.

Optimized Asymmetrical Superelevation? This is just a natural consequence of using an easement curve and maintaining the same track width.

Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Thanks!

I've always wondered, should tracks by symmetrical (turns 1, 2, 3, and 4 being the same) even though we only ride in one direction? Would there be any benefit to having turns entry turns 1 & 3 having an "entry gradation" and exit turns 2 & 4 having a "exit gradation"?

I'm not asserting that they should, but just wondering if there would be any benefits.
Tracks shouldn't be symmetrical. If you've ever ridden the track backwards, especially at speed, you'll notice that it is more difficult. Basically, a symmetrical track would split the difference between between the the two directions. I have ridden a track with symmetrical banks before and it definitely makes for a shakier entry into the banking.

The lean that a trackie exhibits going through the bank is a reaction the the G forces they are experiencing. This is again, a reaction, which means there is a delay in the rider's movement compared to the force they are experiencing. By using an easement curve, you can delay the severity of the onset of the Gs into something that matches a safe rate of lean for the rider.

On a well designed track, the bank does most of work based on the forces a rider is expected to encounter. An easement curve gets the rider to slowly dip down at a manageable rate, holds them there, then "drops out" from under the rider as the track straightens out, forcing the rider "up" by moving them "out". The rider reacts to this by allowing their center of mass to come out (the body), but by steering straight, the bike stays put, and the rider moves back out over the bike.

If the curves were symmetrical (split the difference between the two), then the rider, on entry, will have to actively drop their center of mass, and time it right depending on the speed they are travelling. At the exit, they will have to actively steer inwards (left), as the banking levels off, to prevent themselves from being thrown outwards, while again, timing their "lift" based on speed and location in the bank.

We still have to do these things to a certain degree, but a properly banked track REALLY takes a lot of the guess work out of it.

Last edited by taras0000; 03-06-18 at 02:50 AM.
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Old 03-06-18, 11:11 PM
  #161  
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Watched a video of Hoogland's kilo. 10.8s 125, and a 17.3s first lap. This used to be the domain of TS starters. Top that off with a 30.1s 500 and a 43.9s 750m. We are certainly in a new era of sprinting these days.
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Old 03-06-18, 11:32 PM
  #162  
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The US women team pursuiters have been riding left hand drive train Felt bikes for at least two years. I'm surprised no other team has tried this concept. The US successes leads me to think there may indeed be a slight advantage.

The tech manual for these bikes is available here https://www.feltbicycles.com/Resource...ons_110216.pdf
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Old 03-06-18, 11:54 PM
  #163  
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Originally Posted by taras0000 View Post
Watched a video of Hoogland's kilo. 10.8s 125, and a 17.3s first lap. This used to be the domain of TS starters. Top that off with a 30.1s 500 and a 43.9s 750m. We are certainly in a new era of sprinting these days.
He's definitely the old school style of kilo rider, I think he's lost more than a second from the 875m mark to the line against Glaetzer/Bos who came home harder.

It's interesting that even with the slightly differently styles it's still so close
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Old 03-07-18, 05:57 AM
  #164  
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Originally Posted by 700wheel View Post
The US women team pursuiters have been riding left hand drive train Felt bikes for at least two years. I'm surprised no other team has tried this concept. The US successes leads me to think there may indeed be a slight advantage.

The tech manual for these bikes is available here https://www.feltbicycles.com/Resource...ons_110216.pdf
I'm pretty sure I saw Dean Phillips had gotten his hands on one of the Felts to test a while back, if I remember correctly he found a not insignificant gain vs. a T4. Article is probably somewhere in the Fitwerx blog.
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Old 03-07-18, 07:18 AM
  #165  
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Yeah, I don't think LSD (left side drive) even provides marginal gains.

I'd like to be proven wrong, but right now I can't see it being anything more than marketing hype.

The extra weight of the crank spider, chainring, chain, and cog being 10 inches to the left can't make any real difference. The CdA is the same as if it were on the right.

Maybe it provides a psychological advantage.
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Old 03-07-18, 07:40 AM
  #166  
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Chris Boardman has said a few times in his race commentary that they tested it at BC some years ago and didn't find any gains
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Old 03-07-18, 01:36 PM
  #167  
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Aren't these those new 3T bars? The drops seem really far forward. Anyone got a video of Bos' ride? I'm curious as to what standing starts are like on these.



Oh...and Shimano red cleats
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Old 03-07-18, 01:56 PM
  #168  
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look like standard Revo's to me, I think the angle of the pic is an illusion. (that and how short his extensions are)

As far as the left hand drive... there is some science behind it that makes sense on paper... doesn't mean it translates to on track though. Overall, I tend to also think it's neutral (or very, very close, within margin of error certainly) to "normal"

Fwiw - here is the article I was thinking of with Dean Phillips. Was a TK1 not a T4 he tested it against. He sees some significant gains... (almost unbelievable gains really from a bike change) but the T1 is a fairly old design so you'd expect the new "supertrackmachine" to be a good bit better.
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Old 03-07-18, 06:23 PM
  #169  
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What are trackies saying about the Revos?
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Old 03-07-18, 06:26 PM
  #170  
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Originally Posted by Morelock View Post
................. here is the article .................
This sentence from the article interested me:
"Asymmetrical tubing shapes and component placement are used throughout the bike based on CFD modeling showing optimal aerodynamic drag for these conditions."
I would like to know more on why asymmetrical tubing is used.
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Old 03-07-18, 06:56 PM
  #171  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
What are trackies saying about the Revos?
I know a handful of 500/1000m riders over here have them and like them. That said, the grip area looks very small, kinda surprised they work well for Bos as he is not a tiny guy.
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Old 03-07-18, 08:09 PM
  #172  
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Originally Posted by 700wheel View Post
This sentence from the article interested me:
"Asymmetrical tubing shapes and component placement are used throughout the bike based on CFD modeling showing optimal aerodynamic drag for these conditions."
I would like to know more on why asymmetrical tubing is used.
According to one of the engineers I work with, who knows some of the engineers at Felt:

In testing indoor velodromes show an average yaw angle of 2.5 degrees. Thus, they designed a bike that is most efficient at 2.5 degrees of yaw. Hence the left side crank, and everything else.
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Old 03-07-18, 09:09 PM
  #173  
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Originally Posted by JimiMimni View Post
According to one of the engineers I work with, who knows some of the engineers at Felt:

In testing indoor velodromes show an average yaw angle of 2.5 degrees. Thus, they designed a bike that is most efficient at 2.5 degrees of yaw. Hence the left side crank, and everything else.
Yup. I believe it's about 8 degrees in the banks for a 250m track. This is why you don't mimic a leading riders line, but drift out slightly for the best draft. A miniscule echelon of sorts.
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Old 03-08-18, 05:56 AM
  #174  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Aren't these those new 3T bars? The drops seem really far forward. Anyone got a video of Bos' ride? I'm curious as to what standing starts are like on these.

Oh...and Shimano red cleats

1:09 onwards. You'll probably still need a VPN as it's the UCI channel. I'm currently downloading a video and will put up his kilo segment later if you'd like. I've seen them in person and they're a bit like short scattos (similar to the FES bars Eilers uses). The grip-able area does seem alot shorter IRL than it does in that photo, and that little dip between the typical end of the bars suggests he might have just gotten long AF bar ends to plug in there to extend their length.
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Old 03-08-18, 06:00 AM
  #175  
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[QUOTE=SyntaxMonstr;The grip-able area does seem alot shorter IRL than it does in that photo, and that little dip between the typical end of the bars suggests he might have just gotten long AF bar ends to plug in there to extend their length.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, those look longer than the ones I've seen in person. They're pretty stubby.
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