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bike science: more than 1 way to turn a bike?

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bike science: more than 1 way to turn a bike?

Old 05-24-21, 03:37 PM
  #251  
sacr
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Originally Posted by njkayaker
???

The definition from the wiki is the definition that is generally used (it's not "one interpretation").

Making up private definitions for fairly-commonly used terms doesn't "clear the air" at all (it just confuses things).


Bizarre. People are just supposed to agree with your "made up" definition?
no, things posted on wiki get there for a number of reasons, as yet no scientific definition of "countersteering" is out there, so anyone's definition can hold sway, that is why I clarified what is really happening(abeit without all the incorrect description of torques and other terms used in the wiki piece you are so fond of)
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Old 05-24-21, 03:51 PM
  #252  
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Originally Posted by Harold74
1) This is my first counterstaining thread since becoming a member here so I'm grateful to bear witness to it. Not that I couldn't have searched up another I suppose...
.
Actually counter staining would be more interesting. What Indian spice is it that causes the yellow ones? These are a ***** to get scrubbed out.

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Old 05-24-21, 04:12 PM
  #253  
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Originally Posted by sacr
One thing to get one's head around first, riding a bicycle is constantly reacting to a loss of balance situation.

As we lose balance to one side we turn the wheel to accelerate the bicycle in the same direction, basically arresting the fall.
Well stated, that's essentially what counter steering does: it keeps us from falling over by moving the tires' contact patch in the direction of the fall.
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Old 05-24-21, 04:23 PM
  #254  
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Originally Posted by terrymorse
Well stated, that's essentially what counter steering does: it keeps us from falling over by moving the tires' contact patch in the direction of the fall.
Not at the beginning of the turn it doesn't. Countersteering introduces an out of balance condition. Which is immediately counteracted by turning forces.
Steering back at the end of the turn puts the rider back upright. Note that countersteering at that point would be counterproductive.
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Old 05-24-21, 04:23 PM
  #255  
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene
Actually counter staining would be more interesting. What Indian spice is it that causes the yellow ones? These are a b!tch to get scrubbed out.
Turmeric. It's the worst.

We're thinking about new countertops but we want something that resists turmeric stains.
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Old 05-24-21, 04:27 PM
  #256  
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Circus

Originally Posted by njkayaker
???

It's not like a definition of countersteering doesn't exist. Why are people making other definitions up?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering
Circus bears ride bikes and turn.
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Old 05-24-21, 04:30 PM
  #257  
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Originally Posted by terrymorse
Well stated, that's essentially what counter steering does: it keeps us from falling over by moving the tires' contact patch in the direction of the fall.
Originally Posted by unterhausen
Not at the beginning of the turn it doesn't. Countersteering introduces an out of balance condition. Which is immediately counteracted by turning forces.
Steering back at the end of the turn puts the rider back upright. Note that countersteering at that point would be counterproductive.
Ah, good point.
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Old 05-24-21, 04:42 PM
  #258  
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Two ways to *initiate* a turn, but not to follow through

Obviously all turns that do not result in crashes require that you keep your center of gravity in the correct line over the contact point between the tires and the pavement. There is one and only one line through a given turning radius (for a given combination of bicycle, rider, and speed) that does not result in falling over to one side or the other, and it never involves keeping the tires (and especially their point of contact with the ground) directly under you. That's simple physics.

That being so, as far as I can tell it is meaningful to say there are two ways to *initiate* a turn, but not two ways to follow through on it. If you are content to start the turn gradually, you can shift the overall center of balance of bicycle plus rider solely by shifting your weight into the turn. That is, you shift the center of gravity to the inside of the intended curve relative to the wheels, rather than over them: e.g., for a left turn you put the center of gravity to the left of the wheels' contact with the ground. If this is all you do, you may have to turn the handlebars only slightly, because of the corresponding shift in the point of contact with the ground, and only in the same direction as the turn. AFAICT the point of countersteering is to position the center of gravity to the inside of the intended curve relative to the wheels more quickly, by kicking the wheels to the *outside* of the turn: the wheels move to the *outside* of the intended curve, so that the center of gravity is left behind, and is *instantly* on the inside of the curve. Then you can (and must) turn the wheels back the other way, into the intended curve, immediately rather than gradually, because you have already placed your center of gravity where it needs to be. If you leave the steering mechanism pointed to the outside of the curve for a moment longer than necessary, you are on your side.

It is similar to starting a foot race. If you start upright and want to accelerate, you then have to start leaning forward, to get your center of gravity in front of your feet by enough so so that you are pushing forward to maximum effect. If instead you start out crouching forward as a sprinter always does, your feet are already behind your center of gravity and can start pushing you forward without delay.

It seems to me that's a clue to why countersteering is more important for motorcycles than bicycles: typically more speed and certainly more mass, so that for a given turning radius and speed, shifting that center of gravity using only a muscular shift in the weight of your body will less often be an adequate method - you must use the motorcycle's power to get the wheels out from directly under you.
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Old 05-24-21, 05:15 PM
  #259  
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Jeff, what you describe is how people in Michigan were trained. Mike Walden had his riders pulling on the bars in turns. WSC riders were trained to keep the bike as flat as they could and power through the corner
.
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Old 05-24-21, 05:47 PM
  #260  
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Originally Posted by Greg Boggs
Jeff, what you describe is how people in Michigan were trained. Mike Walden had his riders pulling on the bars in turns. WSC riders were trained to keep the bike as flat as they could and power through the corner
.
It was good for going faster thru flat, uphill or obstacle-filled corners. We also use this skill to not crash when dealing w obstacles -- either due to the obstacle or to bumping others when avoiding an obstacle. It's a very useful skill. Some influential bike science ppl say it doesn't exist.
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Old 05-24-21, 06:00 PM
  #261  
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Originally Posted by terrymorse
What's the technique for recovering from touching wheels, let's say when a rider's front wheel overlaps then rubs against the side of the lead rider's rear wheel?

I have yet to see someone do that without going down.
If you're trained you won't ever crash if you do that. We ride around in the grass and intentionally rub our front tire against the side of someone's rear tire. Or we just bump them. It's pretty common to do in mtbiking -- ppl do it to razz each other and to make a loud buzzing sound.

...You just look away from the rear wheel to come off of it. You can even do a bit of countersteer more into the wheel before steering off of it. But you look away from it. And you always go where you look. You can do this if you have bent arms. Little or no weight on hands. If you have straight arms, weighted hands, yer gonna crash. You won't try to steer off the wheel but instead will do your usual lean/swoop way of turning to get off of it. And wash out your front wheel. Or in the middle of the swoop you might come off of it by sliding off the back of it but due to your straight arms your weighting is out of control and you'll do something else nuts to crash yourself. But if you mess around in the grass doing it on purpose you'll be cured of crashing due to it. ...Sometimes people even get the front wheel on the WRONG side of the other's rear wheel and your wheel is trapped there! Bodyweight on one side, wheel on the other! That is more likely a doomed situation ... BUT!!! ... there's a hope it can be fixed: by jumping out of your saddle. This will throw your bike back and maybe off the back of the overlapped wheel.
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Old 05-24-21, 06:16 PM
  #262  
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Originally Posted by sacr
One thing to get one's head around first, riding a bicycle is constantly reacting to a loss of balance situation.
Correct, and noted in post 180 and 181. Maybe others have noted it too, I'm not sure.

Originally Posted by SteveG23
That being so, as far as I can tell it is meaningful to say there are two ways to *initiate* a turn, but not two ways to follow through on it. If you are content to start the turn gradually, you can shift the overall center of balance of bicycle plus rider solely by shifting your weight into the turn. That is, you shift the center of gravity to the inside of the intended curve relative to the wheels, rather than over them: e.g., for a left turn you put the center of gravity to the left of the wheels' contact with the ground. If this is all you do, you may have to turn the handlebars only slightly, because of the corresponding shift in the point of contact with the ground, and only in the same direction as the turn. AFAICT the point of countersteering is to position the center of gravity to the inside of the intended curve relative to the wheels more quickly, by kicking the wheels to the *outside* of the turn: the wheels move to the *outside* of the intended curve, so that the center of gravity is left behind, and is *instantly* on the inside of the curve. Then you can (and must) turn the wheels back the other way, into the intended curve, immediately rather than gradually, because you have already placed your center of gravity where it needs to be. If you leave the steering mechanism pointed to the outside of the curve for a moment longer than necessary, you are on your side.
Right, you got it.

I'd add that you don't even have to shift your weight one bit to initiate a turn. Just decide not to make one of the many tiny corrections required to maintain balanced, straight line riding, and Presto! You're now starting a turn! It's the same principal as "active" counter steer, but as you pointed out usually not as fast or dramatic. In fact, in either situation you DID counter steer prior to the turn, (or failed to counter steer, depending on how you want to look at it) because constant (minute) counter steering is required just to maintain balance... That not being able to ride a bike with a locked fork thing.

Last edited by AlmostTrick; 05-24-21 at 06:22 PM.
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Old 05-24-21, 07:18 PM
  #263  
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Originally Posted by BurleyCat
Circus bears ride bikes and turn.
Sort of but with help. Kind of like horses can count.
​​​​​
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Old 05-24-21, 07:21 PM
  #264  
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Originally Posted by terrymorse
Well stated, that's essentially what counter steering does: it keeps us from falling over by moving the tires' contact patch in the direction of the fall.
No, this isn't correct.

You countersteer to go off balance momentarily. Then, you steer into the turn to catch the fall.

Originally Posted by unterhausen
Not at the beginning of the turn it doesn't. Countersteering introduces an out of balance condition. Which is immediately counteracted by turning forces.
Steering back at the end of the turn puts the rider back upright. Note that countersteering at that point would be counterproductive.
This is the key part of countersteering.

Last edited by njkayaker; 05-24-21 at 07:45 PM.
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Old 05-24-21, 07:24 PM
  #265  
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11 pages and still rolling! Better shovel some more coal into the box.
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Old 05-24-21, 07:30 PM
  #266  
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Originally Posted by njkayaker
Sort of but with help. Kind of like horses can count.
​​​​​
https://youtu.be/Y-Tj1hG98xE
I want to see what that bear can do with a Kawasaki H2!
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Old 05-24-21, 07:32 PM
  #267  
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Originally Posted by sacr
no, things posted on wiki get there for a number of reasons, as yet no scientific definition of "countersteering" is out there, so anyone's definition can hold sway, that is why I clarified what is really happening(abeit without all the incorrect description of torques and other terms used in the wiki piece you are so fond of)


The wiki repeats the usual definition of countersteering.

There are many examples of that usual definition.

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/descending.html

https://www.renehersecycles.com/myth-13-leaning-without-countersteering/

https://cycling-passion.com/countersteering-cornering-tips/


... Etc

And scores of examples from motorcycling instructions.

​​​​​​No one (other than you) uses your "definition".

It doesn't "hold sway"** because you are talking about something different. You are defining "dog" to be "cat".

** Look up what this means (you aren't using it correctly,).

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Old 05-24-21, 08:05 PM
  #268  
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11 pages and this thread has failed to improve my steering techniques or teach me anything new about bike handling skills.
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Old 05-24-21, 08:06 PM
  #269  
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Originally Posted by wolfchild
11 pages and this thread has failed to improve my steering techniques or teach me anything new about bike handling skills.
You obviously missed the bear riding a bike video.
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Old 05-24-21, 08:48 PM
  #270  
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Originally Posted by AlmostTrick
You obviously missed the bear riding a bike video.


Can we see it again?
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Old 05-24-21, 10:05 PM
  #271  
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Originally Posted by SkinGriz
Great books. Met Keith Code at Laguna Seca. Cool guy, good motorcycle ambassador.
Did a few track weekends with Code's Superbike School back in the 2000s, including trying out the 'lean bike', where they have an extra set of bars / controls welded in a fixed position above the standard bars.

For the 'body english' steerers, they invite them to take the bike out in an empty parking lot and try to turn it using body lean: the fixed bars prevent any steering input. Needless to say, there is failure to induce anything other than a minor wobble.

OTOH, they do teach body positioning, weighting footpegs in corners and knee pressure into the tank when 'hanging off' in a corner. This is a separate action from counter steering, and is used to reduce lean angle by moving body inside of the corner, and to position and brace the body through feet, knees and bum to settle the bike by reducing the need to brace the body on the handlebars, allowing them to be used to guide the bike instead of acting as a body brace.
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Old 05-24-21, 11:54 PM
  #272  
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I could say you need to stick out your hand before turning and then make a video of myself sticking out my hand to prove the point. Most of these "examples* just show someone exaggerating an effect for the camera. In the BQ video the rider could have easily made the same turn without the flourishing swoop to the right first.

Not sure why some here are so desperate to insist something is happening that common sense and experience demonstrates otherwise. It's obvious, it's subtle. It's conscious, it's subconscious. It happens every time, it's an option. You'll fall down without it. You don't fall down because you're leaning..Turn without leaning and you have to, you can't turn without leaning...

Maybe.. maybe.. it's just not that important to riding a bicycle, seeing as nearly no one can even define it let alone has some sort of formal bicycle education in it. How has cycling survived for a century and a half regardless?


Next up: J.H. rediscovers the musette and experts soon agree there is no other way to carry a sandwich.

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Old 05-25-21, 12:15 AM
  #273  
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Originally Posted by SteveG23
Obviously all turns that do not result in crashes require that you keep your center of gravity in the correct line over the contact point between the tires and the pavement. There is one and only one line through a given turning radius (for a given combination of bicycle, rider, and speed) that does not result in falling over to one side or the other, and it never involves keeping the tires (and especially their point of contact with the ground) directly under you. That's simple physics.
Right, but not THAT simple, since no turn trajectory has a constant turning radius. At the very least in the beginning and in the end phase of the turn the radius of the curve changes gradually from infinity (going in a straight line) to the radius needed to negotiate the turn and then back again. Same applies for any steered vehicle, and also railway curves are built this way.

And then there's also the fact that turns may be negotiated with one or even both wheels losing traction or even the contact with the ground at all, adding a few more ways to turn.
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Old 05-25-21, 06:30 AM
  #274  
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Originally Posted by subgrade
Right, but not THAT simple, since no turn trajectory has a constant turning radius. <etc.>
Certainly the real world of executing a turn is normally not that simple if you really analyze it. All I said is "simple physics" is the proposition that you can't navigate a bicycle through a whole turn while keeping the tires directly under the center of gravity; and I only said anything about it with regard to "a given turning radius." I.e., the simplest case. If people get that much, they will understand why countersteering makes sense to kick the tires out at the beginning of a turn, but can't happen continuously throughout the turn.

And of course, as someone said, it's pretty much instinctive, not something most people have to be taught. You do it as a child, more or less when you are able to ride around the block without stopping.

Hmmm. Pages? People count journal entries as pages? What size paper and what font size?
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Old 05-25-21, 07:52 AM
  #275  
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Originally Posted by SteveG23
Hmmm. Pages? People count journal entries as pages? What size paper and what font size?
If you look at the full website, you'll see that BF does count the number of "pages", and you can click through them by number.
This is hardly unique. Welcome to the internets.
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