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actual cost to build a $14,000 bike

Old 01-21-23, 04:32 PM
  #201  
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Originally Posted by Trakhak View Post
You mean they couldn't use it because of wartime restrictions, correct? Not clear from the context whether you mean that or that they couldn't use it for reasons that made aluminum a bad choice for building airplanes.
Virtually all metal airplanes are aluminum. A few are Ti. Even fewer are steel. The winga of the Japanese Zero fighter were wood.

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Old 01-21-23, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
Strength-to-weight isn't everything when it comes to material science. If it was, wooden bikes would have dominated steel and aluminium bikes in the pre-carbon fiber era.
My boatshop was devoted to designing and building wooden boats for exactly that reason for 40 years. Obviously there wasn't a mass-production option there, but for custom, it was as good a choice as any for material. Custom bikes are too simple to build to come out on it using wood.
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Old 01-21-23, 04:39 PM
  #203  
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
Strength-to-weight isn't everything when it comes to material science. If it was, wooden bikes would have dominated steel and aluminium bikes in the pre-carbon fiber era.
Wood is not great for volume or fastening points. The opposite problem steel has.

But Renovo made nice bikes. Bamboo works too.
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Old 01-21-23, 04:47 PM
  #204  
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Originally Posted by Kontact View Post
Virtually all metal airplanes are aluminum. A few are Ti. Even fewer are steel. The winga of the Japanese Zero fighter were wood.
What's your point? Why are you taking us down this Spruce Goose and Japanese Zero rabbit hole?
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Old 01-21-23, 04:48 PM
  #205  
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
The use of virtually all metals was restricted by the U.S.government during WW2.
Yes. That's why I asked for clarification.
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Old 01-21-23, 04:50 PM
  #206  
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
What's your point? Why are you taking us down this Spruce Goose and Japanese Zero rabbit hole?
Because they demonstrate that the specific strength numbers I mentioned are valid. This thread is full of misunderstandings about how materials are used to make light bikes, as well as some strange statements about their fabrication.
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Old 01-21-23, 05:00 PM
  #207  
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Originally Posted by Kontact View Post
Because they demonstrate that the specific strength numbers I mentioned are valid. This thread is full of misunderstandings about how materials are used to make light bikes, as well as some strange statements about their fabrication.
How does the Spruce Goose and Japanese Zero demonstrate anything about specific strength?
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Old 01-21-23, 07:04 PM
  #208  
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
How does the Spruce Goose and Japanese Zero demonstrate anything about specific strength?
Because a fighter and a heavy transport have high wing loading and need to be low weight. The Zero was an excellent fighter, the Goose the largest plane to date. Materials are important in aviation. That's why the bike industry keeps looking to aviation solutions.

Anyone remember when Klein was using boron? That was the aviation composite before CF.
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Old 01-21-23, 07:14 PM
  #209  
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Originally Posted by Kontact View Post
Because a fighter and a heavy transport have high wing loading and need to be low weight. The Zero was an excellent fighter, the Goose the largest plane to date. Materials are important in aviation. That's why the bike industry keeps looking to aviation solutions.
That has very little to do with specific strength, which you have oddly fixated on. Tensile strength, stiffness (Young's modulus), fatigue strength, and elongation are bigger factors in frame construction. And, no, the Spruce Goose was not the biggest plane.
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Old 01-21-23, 07:21 PM
  #210  
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
And, no, the Spruce Goose was not the biggest plane.
I think he meant in the 1940s.
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Old 01-21-23, 07:28 PM
  #211  
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
That has very little to do with specific strength, which you have oddly fixated on. Tensile strength, stiffness (Young's modulus), fatigue strength, and elongation are bigger factors in frame construction. And, no, the Spruce Goose was not the biggest plane.
None of those numbers refer to the weight of the finished product. Specific strength is tensile strength over density. It is the reason we use so much carbon and aluminum despite their comparably low strength to steel. Carbon is strong by weight, not by volume. Tensile strength is by volume.

Last edited by Kontact; 01-21-23 at 09:56 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old 01-21-23, 11:04 PM
  #212  
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Originally Posted by smd4 View Post
I think he meant in the 1940s.
Clearly not:

the Goose the largest plane to date.

Definition of 'to date'

to date

PHRASE
To date means up until the present time.

Originally Posted by Kontact View Post
None of those numbers refer to the weight of the finished product. Specific strength is tensile strength over density. It is the reason we use so much carbon and aluminum despite their comparably low strength to steel. Carbon is strong by weight, not by volume. Tensile strength is by volume.
No, specific strength is not why carbon fiber and aluminium are used for bike frames. If it was, then balsa wood (521 Nm/g) would be better than Aluminium (204 Nm/g) or CrMo steel (71-85 Nm/g). Have you seen a lot of balsa wood bike frames?
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Old 01-21-23, 11:28 PM
  #213  
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
Clearly not:

Definition of 'to date'

to date

PHRASE
To date means up until the present time.


No, specific strength is not why carbon fiber and aluminium are used for bike frames. If it was, then balsa wood (521 Nm/g) would be better than Aluminium (204 Nm/g) or CrMo steel (71-85 Nm/g). Have you seen a lot of balsa wood bike frames?
I think you missed the fact that the Zero and the Goose were covered under the same verb "was", referring to them contemporaneously. Of course I was speaking of that time - to that date. The Antonov is the biggest airplane now.

Well, you go ahead and try to make a bike out of something as soft as balsa. You'll quickly find that balsa makes it hard to anchor things like hubs, headset bearings or cranks. The Q factor would be outrageous since the BB would have to be about 10 inches wide.

However, for something like a glider wing balsa is great for large, light sections that need to be stronger than foam.

But you know all that.
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Old 01-21-23, 11:42 PM
  #214  
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Originally Posted by Kontact View Post
Ti bikes are TIG welded. Are you confusing them with vacuum brazed ti in the 70s?

You sound like you're making this stuff up.
Tig welded with either shielding gas or in the best case in a vacuum chamber.

Originally Posted by Kontact View Post
The lightest 953 frame I found is 1175g. Allez DSW SL or Caad frames ran 1050-90.

The limiting factor with advanced steel alloy is wall thickness and the "beer can effect".
Yes and? Were we not discussing strength? Now it's suddenly frame weight. You can do things with aluminum you can't do with steel. You can do stuff with carbon fiber you can't do with steel. None of that is new. But steel is still stronger than aluminum. Yet strength isn't everything or we'd be making frames out of UHMWPE.
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Old 01-22-23, 12:25 AM
  #215  
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Originally Posted by Kontact View Post
I think you missed the fact that the Zero and the Goose were covered under the same verb "was", referring to them contemporaneously. Of course I was speaking of that time - to that date. The Antonov is the biggest airplane now.
"To date" and "to that date" have different meanings. You can claim you made a typo, but you can't claim what you wrote means something else. And, since the Antonov no longer exists, it is not "the biggest airplane now."

Originally Posted by Kontact
Well, you go ahead and try to make a bike out of something as soft as balsa. You'll quickly find that balsa makes it hard to anchor things like hubs, headset bearings or cranks. The Q factor would be outrageous since the BB would have to be about 10 inches wide.

However, for something like a glider wing balsa is great for large, light sections that need to be stronger than foam.
There are ways to deal with soft materials in structural applications, such as threaded inserts. Regardless, we can choose another material, such as oak. It has a specific strength nearly identical to aluminium and is very hard. Or we can choose nylon, which has a specific strength greater than stainless steel and nearly (90%) the same as titanium. Yet, neither oak or nylon are used for construction of bike frames because they lack adequate tensile strength.

The bottom line is that specific strength does not determine if a material is suitable for bike frames. Why are you fixated on it?
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Old 01-22-23, 12:26 AM
  #216  
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Originally Posted by elcruxio View Post
Tig welded with either shielding gas or in the best case in a vacuum chamber.



Yes and? Were we not discussing strength? Now it's suddenly frame weight. You can do things with aluminum you can't do with steel. You can do stuff with carbon fiber you can't do with steel. None of that is new. But steel is still stronger than aluminum. Yet strength isn't everything or we'd be making frames out of UHMWPE.
All tig welding is done with shielding gas the only difference is,with titanium it is preferential to fill the tubes as well. No substantial producer uses a vacuum chamber as it serves no purpose with bicycle grade titanium. You have obviously fell under the spell of titanium mythology that it is some mysterious material only the finest of craftsmen can work with. This is not the case itís just another couple of steps to learn and it is actually easier to weld than ultra thin heat treated steel frames.
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Old 01-22-23, 02:10 AM
  #217  
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Originally Posted by elcruxio View Post
Yes and? Were we not discussing strength? Now it's suddenly frame weight. You can do things with aluminum you can't do with steel. You can do stuff with carbon fiber you can't do with steel. None of that is new. But steel is still stronger than aluminum. Yet strength isn't everything or we'd be making frames out of UHMWPE.
Well, no. We were discussing how materials with high specific strength are necessary to make light frames. In fact, you said:
Originally Posted by elcruxio View Post
You can probably buy a burned oxidized titanium frame from basic alloy that doesn't beat 953 in terms of strength to weight. I'd imagine the better vacuum welded stuff is a bit more expensive.
Tig welded with either shielding gas or in the best case in a vacuum chamber.
There isn't any Ti bike that was welded without shielding. Your post implied that there were. The welds wouldn't even take.
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Old 01-22-23, 02:47 AM
  #218  
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
"To date" and "to that date" have different meanings. You can claim you made a typo, but you can't claim what you wrote means something else. And, since the Antonov no longer exists, it is not "the biggest airplane now."


There are ways to deal with soft materials in structural applications, such as threaded inserts. Regardless, we can choose another material, such as oak. It has a specific strength nearly identical to aluminium and is very hard. Or we can choose nylon, which has a specific strength greater than stainless steel and nearly (90%) the same as titanium. Yet, neither oak or nylon are used for construction of bike frames because they lack adequate tensile strength.

The bottom line is that specific strength does not determine if a material is suitable for bike frames. Why are you fixated on it?
I feel sorry for you, so confused by the things you read.

I imagine the problem with nylon is the same problem with kevlar - too flexible. Kevlar is incredibly strong, but not stiff. So we don't use it alone for structural composites. Both are used to make ballistic cloth that is flexible enough to absorb impacts without tearing. Something that carbon or fiberglass are too rigid to do.

Here's a hard wood frame from Renovo (ash and gum cherry). They weigh around 5 pounds and have nice ride characteristics. Would you say it is not made of wood?



Here's an oak one (I'm told you can't make a bike from oak):



As you know, tubular rims used to be made of wood. You can buy new ones from Wheel Fanatyk. They weigh 430 grams each.




I'm excited to see how you put a spin on this information.
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Old 01-22-23, 04:54 AM
  #219  
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Originally Posted by Kontact View Post
Well, no. We were discussing how materials with high specific strength are necessary to make light frames. In fact, you said:



There isn't any Ti bike that was welded without shielding. Your post implied that there were. The welds wouldn't even take.
You're going to have to be a bit more specific in your posts. I had strength to weight in mind, not the weight of frames.

This is all so confusing. You've started probably a dozen topics in this thread alone, in all of which you must have the last word be it wood construction or airplane design. And when you're wrong you shift the goalposts.

Anyways, like I mentioned earlier, aluminum nor pine cannot beat steel in strength to weight. But if we're discussing extra light bike frames, aluminum has some other ways to bypass pure strength to weight. In the end however even aluminum can't beat carbon fiber. However the carbon frame needs to be laid out properly so it gets the same stiffness as an aluminum frame of the same weight.
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Old 01-22-23, 08:25 AM
  #220  
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Originally Posted by elcruxio View Post
You're going to have to be a bit more specific in your posts. I had strength to weight in mind, not the weight of frames.

This is all so confusing. You've started probably a dozen topics in this thread alone, in all of which you must have the last word be it wood construction or airplane design. And when you're wrong you shift the goalposts.

Anyways, like I mentioned earlier, aluminum nor pine cannot beat steel in strength to weight. But if we're discussing extra light bike frames, aluminum has some other ways to bypass pure strength to weight. In the end however even aluminum can't beat carbon fiber. However the carbon frame needs to be laid out properly so it gets the same stiffness as an aluminum frame of the same weight.
I agree it's a stupid debate. CF is king when it comes to stiffness/weight ratio and hence no surprise that it dominates in performance bike frame construction. It has the added benefit of being easy to shape and control stiffness in targeted areas. It's a no-brainer choice unless you are on a strict budget or nostalgic.
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Old 01-22-23, 09:26 AM
  #221  
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Originally Posted by Kontact View Post
I imagine the problem with nylon is the same problem with kevlar - too flexible. Kevlar is incredibly strong, but not stiff. So we don't use it alone for structural composites. Both are used to make ballistic cloth that is flexible enough to absorb impacts without tearing. Something that carbon or fiberglass are too rigid to do.
1. You've now cited reasons why people don't make bike frames out of 3 specific materials (balsa, nylon, and kevlar), despite them having adequate specific strength, confirming my assertion that specific strength does not determine if a material is suitable for use as a bike frame.

2. Your tangents about the Spruce Goose and Japanese Zeros are irrelevant and, in the case of the Zero, pure nonsense:

Every possible weight-saving measure was incorporated into the design. Most of the aircraft was built of a new top-secret aluminium alloy developed by Sumitomo Metal Industries in 1936. Called "extra super duralumin" (ESD), it was lighter, stronger and more ductile than other alloys (e.g. 24S alloy) used at the time, but was prone to corrosive attack, which made it brittle.[10]


3. Renovos are beautiful bikes, but they are essentially functional art. (Though, they're certainly more functional than other functional art bikes such as cardboard and plastic bikes.) The fact remains, however, that oak and other woods are not used in the mainstream production of bicycles because, despite their acceptable specific strength, they have other properties that make them less desirable than steel, aluminium, or carbon fiber for the application.
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Old 01-22-23, 09:34 AM
  #222  
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Originally Posted by Kontact View Post
Steel was only used to point out that Indurain beat people riding lighter carbon and titanium in races that were friendly enough to climbers that at least one placed second to him.


The peloton rides what they are sponsored to ride. So no Croce, Chorus, Sante, Ultegra, Force, Sprint, etc. Doesn't matter how good the components are - the top level ones are better advertising for the sponsor.


My point is that you don't need a $14000 bike to be competitive in the pro peloton. Up until last year almost everything was won on cable brakes. Electronic shifting doesn't make you faster. Making minimum weight (if that's even necessary) can be accomplished with fairly ordinary materials and component choices. Sram Force mechanical on 2.5 pound frame will get you there without too much effort and cost less than $5000. So why are we discussing uber expensive bikes as if they are racing necessities?
This is a stupid argument. The Pro-Peloton are always going to ride state-of-the-art bikes with all the marginal gains possible. Who actually said they were a racing necessity? They are certainly a racing preference.
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Old 01-22-23, 10:06 AM
  #223  
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Speaking of Zeros, was Baa Baa Black Sheep not one of the best TV shows ever?

(And the Corsair had wings partially made of fabric. Letís discuss that material.)
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Old 01-22-23, 10:42 AM
  #224  
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Originally Posted by Kontact View Post
I feel sorry for you, so confused by the things you read.

I imagine the problem with nylon is the same problem with kevlar - too flexible. Kevlar is incredibly strong, but not stiff. So we don't use it alone for structural composites. Both are used to make ballistic cloth that is flexible enough to absorb impacts without tearing. Something that carbon or fiberglass are too rigid to do.

Here's a hard wood frame from Renovo (ash and gum cherry). They weigh around 5 pounds and have nice ride characteristics. Would you say it is not made of wood?



Here's an oak one (I'm told you can't make a bike from oak):



As you know, tubular rims used to be made of wood. You can buy new ones from Wheel Fanatyk. They weigh 430 grams each.




I'm excited to see how you put a spin on this information.

So...
If it weighs the same as a duck...
it means it's made of...wood.
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Old 01-22-23, 11:32 AM
  #225  
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Originally Posted by PeteHski View Post
This is a stupid argument. The Pro-Peloton are always going to ride state-of-the-art bikes with all the marginal gains possible. Who actually said they were a racing necessity? They are certainly a racing preference.
Not to mention, but I am anyway, wonderful advertising for the sponsoring bike manufacturers of the latest and greatest. Duh
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