Notices
Framebuilders Thinking about a custom frame? Lugged vs Fillet Brazed. Different Frame materials? Newvex or Pacenti Lugs? why get a custom Road, Mountain, or Track Frame? Got a question about framebuilding? Lets discuss framebuilding at it's finest.

P

Old 02-21-22, 08:25 PM
  #1  
Andrew R Stewart 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Andrew R Stewart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 17,998

Bikes: Stewart S&S coupled sport tourer, Stewart Sunday light, Stewart Commuting, Stewart Touring, Co Motion Tandem, Stewart 3-Spd, Stewart Track, Fuji Finest, Mongoose Tomac ATB, GT Bravado ATB, JCP Folder, Stewart 650B ATB

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4171 Post(s)
Liked 3,789 Times in 2,269 Posts
P

I can't, but I can think French thoughts of sorts when I am building a frame. More on this point soon.

Over the years one "collects" stuff we don't intend to use soon after the money transfers. Portions of bulk offers, Bargen sale for a dream of past youth tube set. My selling off of various fork crowns showed some of my stash that I will never get around to using. I have most of three tube sets that I have had for too long. I could sell them off but I don't have that killer salesman instinct to get back even. What I do have is the want to build a few more frames, and not have to spend too much $. So, these sets seem to be a good base for my next frames.

Tube set #1 is a Vitus 172 missing a steerer and head tube. French made. I've had far more French bikes in my past then other Euro (excluding Raleigh) ones, So the French vibe took hold. This set has traditional road diameters (not metric) and "thick" 1 and .7mm walls in the main frame. 17x29.5mm blades and the chain stays have very long tire clearance indents. Right away I think of a mid/large frame with a club or sport geometry.

The search through the lugs box finds a set with curly tangs that are a pressed and welded. Next were drop outs. The SunTour Superbe set might be a bit of a later era, but the French were known for seeking out the Asian manufactures earlier than, say, the Italians were. The BB is an old pressed and welded one, BSA 68x1.370. It is also crude and has tube socket end shapes that are abrupt, very much not what the lugs say. The crown is a cast one from fairly recent years. Wide enough for 35+mm wide tires and fenders. I have old 1” threaded steerers from Reynolds, True Temper and Tange and will pick the one that works best for the length needed. The head tube is yet to be chosen too but will be 31.8mm OD.

This frame will be a classic road one for 700c wheels, about 57cm c-c with a similar TT length. Drop about 7cm. 72.5 angles and mid/long trail geometry. Dropout eyes, bottle bosses, split stops for sure.

Here’s a few shots of the beginnings.

The joinings. A little old, a little new, a little rusted and a lot of potential.


I welded some extensions and began the carving down.


The shell is about 85% done. Simple curves and expanded cut outs.

More to come as i get stuff done. Andy

The subject is supposed to be "Parlez vous Francais"
__________________
AndrewRStewart
Andrew R Stewart is offline  
Likes For Andrew R Stewart:
Old 02-22-22, 02:42 AM
  #2  
bulgie 
blahblahblah chrome moly
 
bulgie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,977
Mentioned: 92 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1161 Post(s)
Liked 2,535 Times in 1,065 Posts

Subscribed!
bulgie is offline  
Old 02-27-22, 03:37 PM
  #3  
Andrew R Stewart 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Andrew R Stewart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 17,998

Bikes: Stewart S&S coupled sport tourer, Stewart Sunday light, Stewart Commuting, Stewart Touring, Co Motion Tandem, Stewart 3-Spd, Stewart Track, Fuji Finest, Mongoose Tomac ATB, GT Bravado ATB, JCP Folder, Stewart 650B ATB

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4171 Post(s)
Liked 3,789 Times in 2,269 Posts
The lugs are nearly all prepped but need some sand blasting before I should show them. So here's a couple shots of the dropouts before and after brazing. The before shows how I deal with the cog clearance on the RH stay's insides. I lay in some brass/bronze in the "key hole" then file away the "fins" to leave only a scallop.

I mentioned the French theme. I've been looking at The Golden Age of Handbuilt Bicycles and old bike brand catalogs for ideas. After I had built some frames I began to do what I call a recessed scallop stay end treatment. Never really got good at it and after a while I moved away from that style (and one that more closely flows with a filleted frame VS a lugged one). I decided that this frame should have the scalloped style and can say I didn't do too bad a job so far.

Today I went through my braze on bits and picked out some. Included are shift lever bosses (I have an old bag of Simplex ones that if they are identical to Campy I will use), top tube casing loops, above the shell guides (and I haven't used them for decades!) and more. I'll add eyes to the drop outs and unlike most French bikes from the 1970/1980s will add seat stay rack mounts.

__________________
AndrewRStewart
Andrew R Stewart is offline  
Likes For Andrew R Stewart:
Old 02-27-22, 04:06 PM
  #4  
unterhausen
Randomhead
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Happy Valley, Pennsylvania
Posts: 24,362
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked 3,662 Times in 2,496 Posts
Great job on the stay ends. I have trouble with that style
unterhausen is offline  
Old 02-27-22, 08:38 PM
  #5  
Andrew R Stewart 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Andrew R Stewart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 17,998

Bikes: Stewart S&S coupled sport tourer, Stewart Sunday light, Stewart Commuting, Stewart Touring, Co Motion Tandem, Stewart 3-Spd, Stewart Track, Fuji Finest, Mongoose Tomac ATB, GT Bravado ATB, JCP Folder, Stewart 650B ATB

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4171 Post(s)
Liked 3,789 Times in 2,269 Posts
So do I. This time around i'm trying a slight variant. The fish mouth miter has squared off tips as they flow into the drop out surfaces. Previously i would sharpen the tips (make the miter larger across). Andy
__________________
AndrewRStewart
Andrew R Stewart is offline  
Likes For Andrew R Stewart:
Old 02-28-22, 02:12 AM
  #6  
guy153
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 950
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 321 Post(s)
Liked 261 Times in 212 Posts
Nice work! Didn't they used to make stays back in the day that were already shaped and capped to accept this kind of dropout? I guess you cut them at the BB end if you needed to make them a bit shorter.
guy153 is offline  
Old 02-28-22, 02:59 AM
  #7  
bulgie 
blahblahblah chrome moly
 
bulgie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,977
Mentioned: 92 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1161 Post(s)
Liked 2,535 Times in 1,065 Posts
Originally Posted by guy153
Didn't they used to make stays back in the day that were already shaped and capped to accept this kind of dropout?
Yep, and most mass-produced frames used some sort of shortcut such as stay ends domed and slotted (D&S) by the tubing maker. Even some pretty high-end frames proudly used Reynolds 531 D&S.

Here's the listing from Tange of the styles they could do for you on demand:

"E-4 Round Tip" is their version of the domes that all those 531 frames used.

A few snooty boutique builders went the extra mile, making individualized stay end styles, more or less just to differentiate their product. (Most aren't any lighter or stronger than the factory domes) One of the more ironic show-off moves in stay ends was to make your own domes. Art Stump showed me how when I was a teenager in the '70s and I made a couple frames that way, but it was a bit self-defeating because they looked to the uneductaed eye just like the Reynolds factory domes, so all the extra work was a waste. I thought my domes were more elegant and sophisticated, but the reaction from customers was "meh". Jim Merz also made his own domes, and he also stopped doing them, after getting a disappointing level of enbthusiasm from customers. it seems like it was only cool to other framebuilders, who could appreciate the craftsmanship required to make them by hand.

Here's a style that is more work, but at least people could see and appreciate that it wasn't just the same as every Schwinn and Raleigh out there:


Mark B
bulgie is offline  
Likes For bulgie:
Old 02-28-22, 09:35 AM
  #8  
guy153
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 950
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 321 Post(s)
Liked 261 Times in 212 Posts
Thanks for the info! So much work goes into these details but a week after riding the bike, that whole area is covered in oil and mud and nobody cares
guy153 is offline  
Old 02-28-22, 02:46 PM
  #9  
unterhausen
Randomhead
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Happy Valley, Pennsylvania
Posts: 24,362
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked 3,662 Times in 2,496 Posts
I wouldn't mind being able to make the old reynolds domes, but I have no good way to clean the insides of the stays.
unterhausen is offline  
Old 02-28-22, 03:08 PM
  #10  
Andrew R Stewart 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Andrew R Stewart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 17,998

Bikes: Stewart S&S coupled sport tourer, Stewart Sunday light, Stewart Commuting, Stewart Touring, Co Motion Tandem, Stewart 3-Spd, Stewart Track, Fuji Finest, Mongoose Tomac ATB, GT Bravado ATB, JCP Folder, Stewart 650B ATB

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4171 Post(s)
Liked 3,789 Times in 2,269 Posts
The two ways I have done domes are:

Use a hammer to form over the ends. I did this cold against an anvil. I have cut slots/darts out of the end to better fold the metal. Once formed then slot for the drop out. Fill/coat with filler during brazing and file away. If done well the filing won't be much.

Fill the tube end with a steel plug, use brass/bronze, then grind/file the dome before slotting. This method takes longer but claims of "skilled technique" made in your blogs will be more believable

WRT cleaning the stay insides I do it before any of this and trust the flux. Andy
__________________
AndrewRStewart
Andrew R Stewart is offline  
Likes For Andrew R Stewart:
Old 02-28-22, 06:07 PM
  #11  
bulgie 
blahblahblah chrome moly
 
bulgie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,977
Mentioned: 92 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1161 Post(s)
Liked 2,535 Times in 1,065 Posts
Originally Posted by unterhausen
I wouldn't mind being able to make the old reynolds domes, but I have no good way to clean the insides of the stays.
Yes that is the one way that I think DIY domes are better. I got the insides good and clean before forging the domes, which is done cold.

I wasn't really trying to mimic the Reynolds shape; I got a longer tapered dome with a sort of parabola shoreline as opposed to the semicircle on Reynolds. A bit more like the domes on a '40s-'50s Bianchi Folgore:

OK maybe not that tapered; mine were somewhere between that and Reynolds.

They lend themselves well to brazing with pre-placed brass (or silver) in the joint, just heat from the outside until you see filler everywhere.

Originally Posted by guy153
[snip] nobody cares
Ooh good thing you put a smiley after that or you 'n' me would have a problem!
bulgie is offline  
Likes For bulgie:
Old 03-01-22, 02:18 AM
  #12  
guy153
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 950
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 321 Post(s)
Liked 261 Times in 212 Posts
Of course we care I mean most normal people who just ride bikes. I especially like the idea of spending a lot of time on the inside rear dropout attachment!
guy153 is offline  
Likes For guy153:
Old 03-01-22, 06:53 AM
  #13  
unterhausen
Randomhead
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Happy Valley, Pennsylvania
Posts: 24,362
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked 3,662 Times in 2,496 Posts
That's why my motto is #cleanyerbike -- you get to see the nice details.
Not that I follow my own motto.
unterhausen is offline  
Old 03-01-22, 08:27 AM
  #14  
Andrew R Stewart 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Andrew R Stewart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 17,998

Bikes: Stewart S&S coupled sport tourer, Stewart Sunday light, Stewart Commuting, Stewart Touring, Co Motion Tandem, Stewart 3-Spd, Stewart Track, Fuji Finest, Mongoose Tomac ATB, GT Bravado ATB, JCP Folder, Stewart 650B ATB

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4171 Post(s)
Liked 3,789 Times in 2,269 Posts
Originally Posted by unterhausen
That's why my motto is #cleanyerbike -- you get to see the nice details.
Not that I follow my own motto.
I have led so many maintenance classes and talked with hundreds of customers over the years. The #1 thing I say is to clean your bike routinely. Not just because of being nicer to ride a well working bike but when you touch stuff with your hands you feel/see things that are lost via the digital screens we are so wrapped up around. You will notice stuff that can be dealt with before it leaves you stranded. Andy (who will be sandblasting later today)
__________________
AndrewRStewart
Andrew R Stewart is offline  
Likes For Andrew R Stewart:
Old 03-01-22, 11:09 AM
  #15  
guy153
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 950
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 321 Post(s)
Liked 261 Times in 212 Posts
I like a clean bike but riding it comes first. Well, making it comes first. Second is riding it. Third is keeping it clean.
guy153 is offline  
Old 03-04-22, 08:48 PM
  #16  
Andrew R Stewart 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Andrew R Stewart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 17,998

Bikes: Stewart S&S coupled sport tourer, Stewart Sunday light, Stewart Commuting, Stewart Touring, Co Motion Tandem, Stewart 3-Spd, Stewart Track, Fuji Finest, Mongoose Tomac ATB, GT Bravado ATB, JCP Folder, Stewart 650B ATB

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4171 Post(s)
Liked 3,789 Times in 2,269 Posts
More progress. And here it gets more interesting. Some might remember that I recently refurbished a pair of jigs from my past (that i came across and bought years after using them). This frame is the one that I decided to make with those jigs. The jigs don't have size, angles or other scales on them so the fit up is lengthy and a back and forth thing. Helping this go faster is that I used my Anvil jig to fit up the tubes and joints.

The tubes got mitered, the lugs manipulated and I drilled each socket for a pin in each tube. The two joint angles (the head tube ones) got set then i transferred the loose assemblage to the Cyclery North jig and did the move this and clamp that back and forth till all fit. As this jig doesn't have a BB support and I will tack the complete front triangle in it I wanted to insure an aligned shell. Hence the clamped on beam along the DT.

Here's a shot in the before final joint sanding and fluxing. Andy
__________________
AndrewRStewart
Andrew R Stewart is offline  
Likes For Andrew R Stewart:
Old 03-04-22, 08:58 PM
  #17  
Andrew R Stewart 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Andrew R Stewart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 17,998

Bikes: Stewart S&S coupled sport tourer, Stewart Sunday light, Stewart Commuting, Stewart Touring, Co Motion Tandem, Stewart 3-Spd, Stewart Track, Fuji Finest, Mongoose Tomac ATB, GT Bravado ATB, JCP Folder, Stewart 650B ATB

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4171 Post(s)
Liked 3,789 Times in 2,269 Posts
Hit send before I was done

The head tube I chose isn't a Vitus one. It's what I had in stock but turns out it's a 32.5ism mm diameter and the head lugs didn't slide over it at all. My lug vice wasn't up to the task of expanding the HT band (of the lugs) so I ball peened hammered the bands larger. The slight indents will file/sand down easily after brazing.

This slightly larger diameter HT also didn't fit the jig's HT receiving blocks. But luckily they have a large chamfer at the HT hole ends so the blocks still centered the HT well. Andy
__________________
AndrewRStewart
Andrew R Stewart is offline  
Likes For Andrew R Stewart:
Old 03-12-22, 10:51 AM
  #18  
KPacenti
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 43
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked 20 Times in 12 Posts
bulgie,

I always loved the stay treatment on the pink dropouts. Likewise your "half-fast" seat stay treatment at the seat tube / top tube intersection is stellar!
KPacenti is offline  
Old 03-12-22, 04:49 PM
  #19  
bulgie 
blahblahblah chrome moly
 
bulgie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,977
Mentioned: 92 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1161 Post(s)
Liked 2,535 Times in 1,065 Posts
Originally Posted by KPacenti
bulgie,

I always loved the stay treatment on the pink dropouts. Likewise your "half-fast" seat stay treatment at the seat tube / top tube intersection is stellar!
Aw, you silver-tongue devil you!

Thanks, means a lot coming from you.

-mb
bulgie is offline  
Likes For bulgie:
Old 04-03-22, 07:13 PM
  #20  
Andrew R Stewart 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Andrew R Stewart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 17,998

Bikes: Stewart S&S coupled sport tourer, Stewart Sunday light, Stewart Commuting, Stewart Touring, Co Motion Tandem, Stewart 3-Spd, Stewart Track, Fuji Finest, Mongoose Tomac ATB, GT Bravado ATB, JCP Folder, Stewart 650B ATB

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4171 Post(s)
Liked 3,789 Times in 2,269 Posts
The frame/fork are done, or all but the paint is done. Since this is for no person i won't deal with paint until it's worth my while. I might play with this later in the summer... For now the sanding and blasted finish with Phosphate rust inhibitor applied will do. I was pretty happy how most all of this came out. There are a few small brazing surface contours that could have been nicer but it's relatively straight with very little after brazing tugging. The old Cyclery North jigs with my mods worked well although I did run the mitering and fit up of tubes "past" my Anvil jig.

Here's a few shots. next up is a Rey 531 smaller frame in the style of the early/mid 1970s Raleigh Pros. If any one has any insight with these iconic rides I'm all ears. Andy




__________________
AndrewRStewart
Andrew R Stewart is offline  
Likes For Andrew R Stewart:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.