sjanzeir

So, I've been doing some homework lately on the possibility, cost, and reasonable options to a possible upgrade of my Dahon Hemingway folder with hydraulic disk brakes - that is, in lieu of just getting better, dual-piston mechanical calipers. I realized a few things.

First of all - and I need to get this out of the way - I quickly realized that, given where, how, and how often I ride, there's no way I could justify to myself (or to my wife) a fancy, multi-hundred-dollar system. That means no fancy four-piston XTs or Guides or anything even half as expensive as any of these. Even the mechanical Paul Klampers are totally out of the question.

It also mean that - should I do decide to go down the hydraulic route instead of a mechanical upgrade, that is - I'm probably going to go Chinese. Aliexpress and, to a somewhat more conservative level, Amazon, peddle some interesting looking stuff that may fit my basic needs - or may not work at all. It's a total crap shoot.

With that being said, I realized another thing: That regardless of whether I decide to splurge or go all Scrooge, the upgrade isn't going to be as straightforward as I would've hoped.

Examining the bike, I realized that I'm going to need my hydraulic lines to be longer than what's normally found on most pre-assembled hydraulic brake systems. Due to the fact that it's a folding bike that needs to have its handlebars raised in order for me to fold it properly, it's going to need to have a front hydraulic line that's about 95-100cm long and a rear one around 180-185cm. Fancy brandname or Chinese knockoffs (or knockoffs of the Chinese knockoffs) alike, almost all pre-assembled hydraulic brakes come with lines in the 130-145cm range for the rear and 80-85cm for the front brake.

I found exactly one hydraulic set - at Walmart, of all places - that only gets it half-right: The rear line is more or less perfect at 178cm, but the front line is just too short at only 78cm. And, as luck would have it, it has gone out of stock as of today! I found the exact same brakes elsewhere - with different branding and pricing, of course - but none had hydraulic lines any longer than 85cm/145cm.

I found these Chinese hydraulic disk brakes from ZTTO on Aliexpress that piqued my interest. The fact that they run the same BB5-style pads that my bike runs as stock - one of the very few hydraulic systems that run them - means that I could gauge the difference between hydraulic and mechanical disk brakes more accurately running the very same pads with the very same rotors. Well, that and the fact that I've got a few extra BB5 pads lying around, so, it's a win-win, I guess. My rationale here is that, being a total noob to all this, I probably should take this on in baby steps; I can always upgrade to something better later (or buy a better bike if and when I can find, not to mention afford, one.)

Of course, this being Aliexpress, those same brakes can be found there in a few other brands, but none as heavily promoted - and discounted - as ZTTO's official store. Problem is, as you might already expect by now, the hydraulic lines are also too short.

I wrote them a note asking if I could get these brakes with the hose lengths that I need. To my surprise (that they wrote back,) they told me that I was going to have to re-equip the calipers myself with new lines in the lengths I need - and sent me a link to their own hose cutting/barb press tool!

What that means is that, besides the inevitable cringe factor involved in disassembling and modifying what is essentially a brand new product, I'm going to need to buy new hoses, hose barbs, olives, a bleed kit, and a supply of mineral oil (or a bottle of Johnson's,) and I'm going to have to learn a couple of new skills!

They never said anything about whether or not this would void any warranties, though, but for about $60 at my doorstep, I'm not too sure if I should worry that much about it. This is a Chinese product, from Aliexpress, after all.

So, this is the fence I'm sitting on right now. Thoughts, Ideas, suggestions, and guidance are infinitely appreciated.

TiHabanero

In a former life I built prototypes, and one thing learned early on is that some situations require one to dive in head first to see what works.

headwind15

I had decent luck with buying entry level Shimano hydraulic brakes on E bay. The one's that I bought came with the lines reversed. (right lever, front brake). I had to reverse them. What I did like was only having to buy the Shimano "funnel" ($7) and some Johnson & Johnson baby oil for the bleed job. I would be Leary about buying an off brand with an unknown bleeding process. I absolutely hate the (complicated) Advid bleed kit/ process. My brakes cost under $50 The stupid (syringe type) Advid bleed kit alone costs $35. ---so yea forget it. On the length: Use the old rear brake hose for your front brake and buy a (longer) new line for the rear.

andrewclaus

I noticed this right away, because it's been a guiding principle in my life, and I congratulate you for bringing it up, and including your spouse in your thoughts. A bicycle to me has always simply meant reliable, economic, healthy, and clean transportation. And a lifetime of economic cycling allowed me to retire early. I've never put more money than necessary into a bicycle. In my opinion, there are better things to do with discretionary funds and time. And I value input from my spouse of 40 years in that regard.

HillRider

What are your current mechanical brakes and how bad are they? I have a Surly Midnight Special (road/gravel bike) with TRP Spyre mechanical disc brakes and they have been very satisfactory. They were reasonably priced, easy to install, easy to align and quiet in operation. Also, they use commonly available Shimano-compatible pads. They are not the "power brake" that some hydraulic brakes promise but they are certainly require no more hand effort than my Ultegra dp caliper brakes with Kool Stop pads.

To avoid the complexity, expense and uncertainty of no-name hydraulics, consider them as an upgrade.

veloz

Shimano for hydro +1. Even their most inexpensive sets work dependably. I’ve replaced a bunch of Avids, a couple Tektro and one one Hayes set. Take that as a quality rating. If you ride a lot, don’t waste your time on others or you’ll end up buying twice.

sjanzeir

HillRider As you may have gleaned from the earlier thread I started on brake levers, I've been keeping an eye out for a pair of Spykes - the Spyre's longer-pull, MTB brother - to become available since December. It's what I want if I were to keep the upgrade simple (and myself sane.)

My current, factory setup is a pair of unbranded, single-piston, entry-level mechanical BB5 calipers with the same Avid FR-5 (albeit also unbranded) as the ones pictured in that thread. They offer neither the power nor the finesse of the Avid V-brakes on my other folding bike; their all-or-nothing nature could get dicey in some hairy traffic situations; full-on panic stops are answered with plenty of drama coming up through the fork and into the handlebars with little to no control; let off from full power even a little bit and it's like a short circuit throwing a fuse.

Cyclist0108

I recently got a pair of Shimano Alfine hydraulics at Universal Cycles for $129.99




These replaced some horrid Avid Juicy brakes. They seem perfectly fine, and are a lot cheaper than the XT ones I normally use on bikes. They are actually made for a commuter bike.

They were pre-bled and all hooked up so all you have to do is attach them. (You might need a couple of $6 adaptors depending on what you have now.)

woodway

Take a look at TRP HY/RD brakes. You get the benefits of hydraulic brakes but keep your current levers/cables, and a much lower entry cost than full hydros. I've been using them for years and am very happy.

sjanzeir

wgscott Factory brakes are post mount on factory IS adapters on IS frame and fork, so it looks like I'd better stick with post mount (if whatever I end up buying comes with its own IS adapters, then that would be great, too!)

sjanzeir

woodway I've been eying those for a while, too, but $125 per caliper (one of the lower prices I found on Google Shopping as of today) is more than a little hard to swallow. Plus, these being road calipers, there's the possible issue with lever compatibility I mentioned in the thread above cable pull.

katsup

What about the Juin Tech M1? Similar to the TRP in that they are hydro at the caliper, but cable at the lever.

I use the short pull version (R1) on one of my bikes with no complaints.

sjanzeir

headwind15 You mean Avid bleed kit? A decision I made very early on is to rule out anything DOT5.1-based. Which means that anything SRAM, Avid, or compatibles are out. Having spent some time working as an auto mechanic in a past life (before OBDII became a thing) I do not miss working with DOT-certified brake fluids!

sjanzeir

katsup yup, looked at that, too. Luke's recent video was very interesting. ZTTO have their own premium version for a similar price. Their entry-level version is about a third of the price but man, does it look crappy!

hokiefyd 

One advantage to mechanical disc brakes, one which I've come to appreciate more and more, is the ability to fine-tune the brake pad clearance. Hydraulics don't really allow for that. The pad clearance you get is just the pad clearance you get. But you can adjust mechanical calipers to have as little or as much clearance as you want (as long as your brake levers will support it, obviously). This allows for slightly out-of-true rotors and for the slightly variable positioning you get with quick release wheels.

This is what got me interested in the brake lever pull, as I posted in your other thread. You can really fine-tune your cable-pulled disc brakes by swapping various levers out. If you use levers with a high radius (40mm or greater), you can really open up your pad clearance (at the expense of mechanical advantage, obviously). If you use levers with a shorter radius (32mm or less), you get more power but need to set the pads closer together.

It's been pretty fun for me to tinker with this, and I've replaced hydraulic brakes on one of my bikes with Tektro cable-pulled brakes with pretty good success. Brake lever feel is pretty similar to a typical rim brake, and stopping power is quite good.

Darth Lefty 

My last brake buy was a set of Tektros, from Taiwan via eBay, that were OEM scratch and dent. The only cheap set I could find that were flat bar levers and flat mount calipers, at the time. Pretty satisfied, no problems. If I'd wanted post mount there were options aplenty in odd man out groupsets like those wgscott posted.

Most pre bled brakes come with hoses too long and you can shorten the hoses without bleeding as long as you keep the leaky parts pointed up. Which you can do as long as neither the lever nor caliper are mounted while you route the hose. You do need that tool though, it not only makes a clean slice in the hose but also seats the replacement fitting. If the right hose seems way too short and vice versa, you are probably looking at a right-hand-front set.

I don't know anything definite about those ZTTO brakes but the brand is selling direct knockoffs of some other designs like DT Swiss 240 hubs, pure ripoff to the point the parts are interchangeable. Which is good if you like to keep your money and bad if you like IP. There are actual Shimano MT200's for sale on Ali Express too.

DaveSSS 

Juin-Tech makes 2 piston mechanically operated hydraulic calipers and the more pricey 4 piston GT model. I've owned both. Money is no issue so I have the GT calipers on two bikes. Excellent braking power with no hoses.

TiHabanero

Agree with your sentiment on the DOT fluid. No thanks. Mineral oil is the way to go on a bicycle.

Russ Roth

Can't speak to the ZTTO but the Juin Tech are what they seem to be stealing the design from, I've got a pair on the wife's cross bike and she loves the stopping power in the mud and wet. The GT version with 4 pistons was a little much to spend at the time. For a folder I might be more inclined to go with them.
For my kids I picked up previous generation deore brakes for around 100 a set, yeah newer is better but one generation older is still pretty good depending on need and much more affordable.

Cyclist0108

That's exactly what I have on the bike I put these on as well. As far as I am able to tell, they are the same as standard XT two-piston post-mount calipers (including the pads).

streetstomper

If you do decide to go with mechanical rather than hydraulic disc brakes, you'll probably need some double-ended housing connectors and mix housing types. Mechanical brakes always benefit from compressionless housing, but that type of housing is rather stiff and won't like the tight curves folding bikes often have in their cables when folded. So you may need to use compressionless most of the way and standard brake housing at the folding points.

sjanzeir

Thank you for this! I had started a whole thread some weeks ago looking for answers to exactly this: will compressionless housings and hydraulic lines work with a folding bike? Your idea of mixing housings did cross my mind, but this being Bike Forums, I thought that if I ask the question, I might get laughed right out of the forum!

blamester

This. Try different levers. Different leverge different body length, different blade lenghs/shape. A good sturdy long pull lever gives very fine control so long as you don't run out of room to pull it.
Swap the levers from your other bike if they are different. Just to see.
​​​​​​

streetstomper

Another option is progressive mechanical advantage levers, namely those with Shimano's Servo Wave or Dia Compe's Power Control features. They pull more cable at first to move the pads to the rotor quickly, but increase leverage as you pull further to increase power. Unfortunately, none have been made since the 1990s but are available on the used market. Shimano's two-finger BL-M600 levers are for V-brakes and would work with Spykes. The internal cam can be adjusted to three different levels from low Servo Wave action (strong at full pull) to high action (very strong at full pull). Dia Compe had three-finger PC-5, PC-7 and PC-8 for cantilever brakes, which would work with Spyres, but the action isn't adjustable. Either way, you'd probably be able to really tweak the bite point to get maximum power.

hounslow

Shimano MT200's are dirt cheap (£35ish each retail) and excellent. Don't buy knockoff crap, I see this stuff come through the shop all the time.