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Driverless cars today... where will they be in 5 years...

Old 11-22-21, 08:33 AM
  #601  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
Thanks, we think we will enjoy it though we don't travel much lately. Maybe with the new car we will. Attached are a some of the pages from the quick reference manual discussing just some of the safety features of this car. There are a ton more, no wonder the owner's manual is 600 pages.The model we got is just like the advertised one except it has a black interior. We really like the Celestite Gray Metallic exterior, and didn't want a white or black model . Those colors are extremely common around here (mostly on the umpteen pickup trucks) and white or black Corollas look like they belong in a Star Wars Movie. And we like the appearance of this color.
"You don't travel much" and yet you bought a gas powered car? You are a glutton for punishment.

600 page manual eh? Well beats the 450 page manual that came with my wife's 2016 Mazda 3... BTW she uses few of the safety features, or rather somewhat ignores them... "What does that mean...?" is her typical response. She never uses cruise control. (and much to my dismay, she does use her cell phone while driving... something I NEVER do... I put my cell in an inconvenient place when I drive. Leave a message, I'll pick it up later.)

Me, I keep the rear view camera clean... and have read the manual.
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Old 11-22-21, 03:15 PM
  #602  
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Originally Posted by genec View Post
"You don't travel much" and yet you bought a gas powered car? You are a glutton for punishment.

600 page manual eh? Well beats the 450 page manual that came with my wife's 2016 Mazda 3... BTW she uses few of the safety features, or rather somewhat ignores them... "What does that mean...?" is her typical response. She never uses cruise control. (and much to my dismay, she does use her cell phone while driving... something I NEVER do... I put my cell in an inconvenient place when I drive. Leave a message, I'll pick it up later.)

Me, I keep the rear view camera clean... and have read the manual.
What should I have bought, a Tesla? Although maybe in San Diego you might, but my wife is not going shopping this winter on a scooter. You got anything new to recommend anywhere in the same $/reliability ballpark? Fuel costs are a relatively minor cost in the overall scheme of my transportation requirements.

I hope we never have a need for any of the airbags or imminent crash warnings at all. As far as all the warnings about staying in the lane, I can figure that out by myself.

My task at the moment is figuring how to play audiobooks from thumb drives mp3 player and/or phones on the audio system and how to make the connections (USB, Bluetooth, Android Auto or who knows what). Unfortunately, Toyota has followed Apple's infamous lead and omitted the 3.5mm jack as means to input audio into the system, which had been my preferred means to export audio from my mp3 player.
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Old 11-22-21, 03:33 PM
  #603  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
What should I have bought, a Tesla? Although maybe in San Diego you might, but my wife is not going shopping this winter on a scooter. You got anything new to recommend anywhere in the same $/reliability ballpark? Fuel costs are a relatively minor cost in the overall scheme of my transportation requirements.

I hope we never have a need for any of the airbags or imminent crash warnings at all. As far as all the warnings about staying in the lane, I can figure that out by myself.

My task at the moment is figuring how to play audiobooks from thumb drives mp3 player and/or phones on the audio system and how to make the connections (USB, Bluetooth, Android Auto or who knows what). Unfortunately, Toyota has followed Apple's infamous lead and omitted the 3.5mm jack as means to input audio into the system, which had been my preferred means to export audio from my mp3 player.
Uh, Toyota sells this car called a Prius... runs on either gas or electricity... So no real range anxiety, they are quiet, rather roomy and who knows, might save you money overall.
There are loads of other electric cars out there... heck, Ford even has an electric Mustang. (costly)

Tesla... uh no. Tiny, over priced, and thus far, does not meet the hype.

Oh, and your pain with the 3.5mm aux-in jack... you have my deepest sympathies. Really. No doubt some project manager got a bonus for removing that bit of convenience. Sheesh.
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Old 11-22-21, 05:32 PM
  #604  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
What should I have bought, a Tesla?
Nissan Leaf, Chevy Volt, etc etc etc
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Old 11-22-21, 08:44 PM
  #605  
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Originally Posted by genec View Post
Uh, Toyota sells this car called a Prius... runs on either gas or electricity... So no real range anxiety, they are quiet, rather roomy and who knows, might save you money overall.
There are loads of other electric cars out there... heck, Ford even has an electric Mustang. (costly)

Tesla... uh no. Tiny, over priced, and thus far, does not meet the hype.

Oh, and your pain with the 3.5mm aux-in jack... you have my deepest sympathies. Really. No doubt some project manager got a bonus for removing that bit of convenience. Sheesh.
Originally Posted by RubeRad View Post
Nissan Leaf, Chevy Volt, etc etc etc
Why should I have bought one of them rather than the car that we wanted? Because it would fit your concept of a proper PC purchase, rather than my wife and my requirements?
​​​​​​​BTW, what model of motorized vehicles can be found in your garage?
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Old 11-23-21, 12:51 AM
  #606  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
Why should I have bought one of them rather than the car that we wanted?
Like genec said, ""You don't travel much" and yet you bought a gas powered car? You are a glutton for punishment." Why do you want a gas burner? Are you so mad at Tesla you're against human-driven electric cars?

BTW, what model of motorized vehicles can be found in your garage?
I am aggressively apathetic about cars. That's why I can't wait for self-driving cars to arrive.

We have two old volkswagens, total over 250k miles. I'm proud that one year (2015 or so) the older of them was driven a total of 863 miles. And a few other years it got less on the odometer than my bike. When I bought the minivan before our current passat wagon, my goal was for that to be the last car I ever purchased. Didn't work out, but I was glad to get rid of that nissan quest, it was a pig.

I wouldn't mind a Tesla Model 3 someday maybe, or something simpler like a Leaf. My dream would be a tiny full electric pickup truck (like old VW rabbit pickup or 1st gen Totota pickup size), trivially easy to haul a couple mountain bikes around in. But I doubt anybody would ever bring that to the US market.
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Old 11-23-21, 10:28 AM
  #607  
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Originally Posted by RubeRad View Post
Like genec said, ""You don't travel much" and yet you bought a gas powered car? You are a glutton for punishment." Why do you want a gas burner? Are you so mad at Tesla you're against human-driven electric cars?


I am aggressively apathetic about cars. That's why I can't wait for self-driving cars to arrive.

We have two old volkswagens, total over 250k miles. I'm proud that one year (2015 or so) the older of them was driven a total of 863 miles. And a few other years it got less on the odometer than my bike. When I bought the minivan before our current passat wagon, my goal was for that to be the last car I ever purchased. Didn't work out, but I was glad to get rid of that nissan quest, it was a pig.

I wouldn't mind a Tesla Model 3 someday maybe, or something simpler like a Leaf. My dream would be a tiny full electric pickup truck (like old VW rabbit pickup or 1st gen Totota pickup size), trivially easy to haul a couple mountain bikes around in. But I doubt anybody would ever bring that to the US market.
OK, got it. You are real proud of yourself about your bicycling mileage, therefore I should spend many thousands of dollars more to buy a car that fits your PC addled view of good value and practicability in purchasing a car to fit an individual's needs. I suppose those 250k miles on your gasoline burning cars were run up by gremlins while you were out riding your bicycles.

This ain't San Diego where electrical refilling stations may be available wherever you go and you can install a home car charging system for free. I did not say my wife and I are homebound, we just have no need to drive daily. I suppose based on your reasoning I should have bought an electric pickup truck no matter what it costs or impractical for me, because that would fit your preferences.
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Old 11-23-21, 10:36 AM
  #608  
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You never fail to turn conversation into a fight. Why are you in this thread? Are you enjoying it?

Also what do you mean "PC"? You've added a new insult to your vocabulary, and I'm not as smart or discerning or sophisticated as you, so I need you to explain it with small words. Preferably in crayon.
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Old 11-23-21, 11:39 AM
  #609  
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Originally Posted by RubeRad View Post
You never fail to turn conversation into a fight. Why are you in this thread? Are you enjoying it?
Thinking it’s his need for attention from others so it can give him the illusion of being important and having that sense of importance and center of attention compensate for how he really feels in his life…..or maybe he just has too much of a troll personality…or maybe both
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Old 11-23-21, 01:25 PM
  #610  
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Originally Posted by RubeRad View Post
You never fail to turn conversation into a fight. Why are you in this thread? Are you enjoying it?

Also what do you mean "PC"? You've added a new insult to your vocabulary, and I'm not as smart or discerning or sophisticated as you, so I need you to explain it with small words. Preferably in crayon.
You posted: "Why do you want a gas burner? Are you so mad at Tesla you're against human-driven electric cars? I am aggressively apathetic about cars. "
Why then do you deign to give snarky "advice" on what kind of car I should have bought, except to provoke a negative response? Don't answer, I already know that your group think credentials on this subject should not be questioned. Yes you can be aggressive and proud of it too.
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Old 11-23-21, 01:36 PM
  #611  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
Don't answer
OK

(dangit!)
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Old 11-23-21, 03:07 PM
  #612  
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Who said this:?

I have exposure to the very cutting-edge AI, and I think people should be really concerned about it ... I keep sounding the alarm bell, but until people see robots going down to the street killing people, they don't know how to react, because it seems so ethereal. ... AI is a rare case where we need to be proactive about regulation instead of reactive. Because I think by the time we are reactive in AI regulation, it’s too late.
spoiler
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Old 11-23-21, 03:32 PM
  #613  
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Originally Posted by RubeRad View Post
Who said this:?



spoiler
Elon Musk, Stephen Hawking, and a few others familiar with AI. The biggest issue is that by the time we realize what is happening, it will be all finished. Could that be the reason Elon wants to go to Mars, so that when he finally does release real FSD, he can be off the planet???
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Old 11-23-21, 04:17 PM
  #614  
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"until people see robots going down to the street killing people" -- maybe that's why he's pushing FSD so hard?
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Old 11-25-21, 12:11 AM
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Originally Posted by RubeRad View Post
I think this means the steering is computer controllable through the OBD-II port (same one a mechanic will plug into to check for error codes), so it is supported by the Comma 3 'open-source driver-assistance system'
Yeah, lots of the sensors and controls are there. Not sure if it's all the ones needed. Reading and parsing road signs seems like a cut above, if it's better than just speed limits. But the brain is not connected.
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Old 11-25-21, 12:50 PM
  #616  
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Originally Posted by Darth Lefty View Post
Yeah, lots of the sensors and controls are there. Not sure if it's all the ones needed. Reading and parsing road signs seems like a cut above, if it's better than just speed limits. But the brain is not connected.
Still reading the manual. When driving about town the speed limit signs were displayed but I didn't exceed the speed limits so I haven't been warned yet by the sensors.. It did beep though when I merged over some painted lanes without using the turn signal.

Extracts from from the Corolla manual about Road Sign Assist function:


Attached Files
File Type: pdf
RSA Manual 2022 Corolla.pdf (151.1 KB, 1 views)

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Old 12-02-21, 12:14 PM
  #617  
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And a slightly different view of automobile collisions and the why/why not of autonomous vehicles...

This article cites that the often used statistic that 94% of all "accidents" are human caused, while we as a nation tend to ignore things like poor road and vehicle design, and put the blame on the hapless driver... who may not be paying attention anyway.

For now, the idea that human error causes nearly all crashes is a useful talking point for the makers of autonomous-vehicle technology, which supposedly will prevent such mistakes. Companies including General Motors, Google, and the start-up Aurora have touted the 94 percent statistic in promotional materials, press statements, and even SEC filings. But, as the Carnegie Mellon University engineering professor Phil Koopman has pointed out, autonomous systems will make their own errors on the road. He does not expect AVs to reduce crashes by more than 50 percent, even in a best-case scenario. And an all-autonomous driving future is still at least decades away, suggesting that AVs will not reverse the growing death toll on American roads for many years to come—if they ever do.

Dumping the dangerous 94 percent myth would be a good start; deemphasizing pointless traffic-safety PR campaigns would help too. Encouraging state and local transportation agencies—not just law enforcement—to investigate crashes, which
New York City is now doing, would be even better. What we need most is a reexamination of how carmakers, traffic engineers, and community members—as well as the traveling public—together bear responsibility for saving some of the thousands of lives lost annually on American roadways. Blaming human error alone is convenient, but it places all Americans in greater danger.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...rashes/620808/

So, as many here on BF have observed... it isn't just the driver... there ARE bad roads out there. (we just don't admit it... )
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Old 12-02-21, 01:17 PM
  #618  
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Thanks for that very informative link.

This section with a concrete f'rinstance is also worth quoting:

In 2015, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, a branch of the U.S. Department of Transportation, published a two-page memo declaring that “the critical reason, which is the last event in the crash causal chain, was assigned to the driver in 94% of the crashes.” The memo, which was based on the NHTSA’s own analysis of crashes, then offered a key caveat: “Although the critical reason is an important part of the description of events leading up to the crash, it is not intended to be interpreted as the cause of the crash.”To understand what the NHTSA was trying to say, imagine the following scenario: It’s a foggy day, and the driver of an SUV is traveling along a road at the posted speed limit of 40 miles per hour. The limit then drops to 25 as the road approaches a town—but the road’s lanes do not narrow (which would naturally compel a driver to apply the brakes), and the lone sign announcing the lower speed limit is partially obstructed. Oblivious to the change, the driver keeps traveling at 40. As he enters the town, a pedestrian crosses the road at an intersection without a stoplight. The driver strikes the pedestrian.

By the federal government’s definition, the “critical reason” for this hypothetical crash—the last event in the causal chain—is the error made by the driver who was speeding at the time of the collision. Almost certainly, the police will hold him responsible. But that overlooks many other factors: The foggy weather obscured the driver’s vision; flawed traffic engineering failed to compel him to slow down as he approached the intersection; the SUV’s weight made the force of the impact much greater than a sedan’s would have been.

However, an automated vehicle would (potentially) not be as impaired by fog, might be able to see the 25mph sign even if partially obstructed, or might have access to a database so it has an independent source of information about what road segments are what speed limit, so it would slow down even though the road was not engineered narrower.

And even if a 50% crash reduction is the best case scenario, that's still a huge reduction, and a huge net savings in terms of human lives
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Old 12-02-21, 01:51 PM
  #619  
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Originally Posted by RubeRad View Post
Thanks for that very informative link.

This section with a concrete f'rinstance is also worth quoting:


However, an automated vehicle would (potentially) not be as impaired by fog, might be able to see the 25mph sign even if partially obstructed, or might have access to a database so it has an independent source of information about what road segments are what speed limit, so it would slow down even though the road was not engineered narrower.

And even if a 50% crash reduction is the best case scenario, that's still a huge reduction, and a huge net savings in terms of human lives
BTW the reference to speeding in that report... in that case, because the motorist missed the sign... but in my mind "speeding" is a pretty constant human "error" as so many motorists choose to drive "at the speed limit," rather than "for the conditions of the road." (IE fog, approaching town... both things that an alert dynamic driver would adjust for... sign or no sign )

Anyway, back to the autonomous car discussion.
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Old 12-06-21, 01:50 PM
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These are great:
Originally Posted by Shimagnolo View Post
ILTB you should make one where he's trying to drive his driverless car
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Old 12-06-21, 01:57 PM
  #621  
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A good article in NYT today about Musk's haphazard rush with "Autopilot":
NYT: Inside Tesla as Elon Musk Pushed an Unflinching Vision for Self-Driving Cars
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Old 12-06-21, 03:12 PM
  #622  
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Originally Posted by Shimagnolo View Post
A good article in NYT today about Musk's haphazard rush with "Autopilot":
NYT: Inside Tesla as Elon Musk Pushed an Unflinching Vision for Self-Driving Cars
BLUF:
Extracts from the NYT article:
Since the start of Tesla’s work on Autopilot, there has been a tension between safety and Mr. Musk’s desire to market Tesla cars as technological marvels.
“One should not be hung up on what Tesla says,” Mr. Shashua (chief executive of Mobileye, a former Tesla supplier) said. “Truth is not necessarily their end goal. The end goal is to build a business.”
And as even this thread indicates there are legions of fan-bois and wishful thinkers dazzled by the perceived elegance and alleged advantages to be found in the fancifully named technological marvels promised by the likes of Musk et al. Tesla has built their business hustling these folks from day one.
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Old 12-06-21, 03:24 PM
  #623  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
And as even this thread indicates there are legions of fan-bois and wishful thinkers dazzled by the perceived elegance and alleged advantages to be found in the fancifully named technological marvels promised by the likes of Musk et al. Tesla has built their business hustling these folks from day one.
At this point, Musk/Tesla have become the "Duke Nukem Forever" of self-driving cars;
Making promises for years, without delivering on them.

Tesla started with cameras, radar, and sonar.
First they dropped the sonar. Then they dropped the radar.
Pretty much every other party working on autonomous cars considers LIDAR essential.
Initially LIDAR units were large mechanical devices that protruded from the top of a car, and cost $75K.
But now they have been replaced by solid state devices that coast a fraction of that.
Want to know how cheap they are?
Every iPhone 12 Pro and iPad Pro sold in the past year has LIDAR.
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Old 12-06-21, 03:29 PM
  #624  
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I've heard of range sensors in tablet/phone devices, but I didn't think that was technically LIDAR. It's been a few years, but the one I had learned about could only detect up to about 5m away.

Comma.ai (who calls themselves the Android of self-driving, to Tesla's Apple), does what they do with a souped up smartphone hanging looking out your windshield. I'm not sure whether they attach (or bluetooth) any side/rear-facing sensors.
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Old 12-06-21, 03:41 PM
  #625  
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Here is an article about Apple's LIDAR:
ArsTechnica: Lidar used to cost $75,000—here’s how Apple brought it to the iPhone

And here is a guy demonstrating it:
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